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How do you define evolution?

exchemist

Veteran Member
I'm looking up definitions, and the first one I came across is this (short and sweet) --
"the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth."
Do you agree with it?
This definition refers only to the use of the term in the context of living things, in other words to the evolution of life.

Evolution more generally refers to a process of opening out, unrolling, unfolding or spreading out. For instance, in chemistry we refer to the evolution of gases in the course of a chemical reaction, from compounds in which they were, in effect, bound up. Or a historian can speak of the evolution of democracy, or an astronomer of the evolution of the solar system.

Its opposite is involution, which means a process of rolling or folding up (you may have eaten involtini in an Italian restaurant, for example).

Note that this term, even in the narrower context of life, does not on its own specify any mechanism. For that you need a definition of the theory of evolution, which will inevitably be rather longer, as it is a scientific theory.
 

Yazata

Active Member
How do you define evolution?

The word 'evolution' basically means 'change over time'. In physics, physical systems evolve. (Initial conditions + dynamical equations). We hear about how stars evolve on and off the 'main sequence'. In geology landscapes evolve (erosion etc.)

So naturally the 'change over time' idea came to be applied in biology as well, not only to biological organisms during their lives, but to hypothetical changes in taxonomic categories over longer time periods. Multiple speculative hypotheses were advanced about how these might change over time to produce the kind of biodiversity observed. Lamarck is a big name here.

Then Darwin and Wallace came along in that intellectual context and proposed the idea of natural selection.

So today the meaning of the word 'evolution' is a matter of context. In the biological context, it's most often understood to mean something like biological taxonomic change by natural selection.

I'm looking up definitions, and the first one I came across is this (short and sweet) --
"the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth."
Do you agree with it?

Yes and no. It's too narrow to include the time-evolution of physical systems.

But it does kind of catch the state-of-play in biological taxonomic thinking in the first half of the 19th century, prior to Darwin and Wallace when many thinkers were thinking about the problem of the origin of species.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I'm looking up definitions, and the first one I came across is this (short and sweet) --
"the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth."
Do you agree with it?
In my personal view, this definition seems accurate... Evolution (in biology) is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. These characteristics are the expressions of genes that are passed on from parent to offspring during reproduction. Different characteristics tend to exist within any given population as a result of mutation, genetic recombination and other sources of genetic variation.

The above is observed.
According to Evolution101, All available evidence supports the central conclusions of evolutionary theory, that life on Earth has evolved and that species share common ancestors. Biologists are not arguing about these conclusions. But they are trying to figure out how evolution happens, and that's not an easy job.

Some of the questions that evolutionary biologists are trying to answer include:
  1. Does evolution tend to proceed slowly and steadily or in quick jumps?
  2. Why are some clades very diverse and some unusually sparse?
  3. How does evolution produce new and complex features?
  4. Are there trends in evolution, and if so, what processes generate them?
The above seems very simple, and does not try to jumble or mix words as some do, to confuse or mislead the listener, or reader.

Howeve, not everything claimed on this site is accurate.
One must read carefully what they are reading, remembering that we are dealing with human nature.

Biologist all agree with the observable facts, but they argue on the proposed claims about the theory... rather theories, as there are more than one theory of evolution.

The argument that the theory of evolution is a fact is incorrect because a theory is not a fact. A theory explains (or is an explanation of) the facts.

The theories that try to explain the observable facts mentioned above, are under question and debate by scientists.
They involve a lot of conjecture, and extrapolation, based on the interpretation of data.

Do I believe that evolution occurs? Yes.
Do i believe the theories given to explain evolution are true? No. The evidence is subject to different interpretations.

Words mean different things to different people apparently, so not all scientist would say the same thing, nor agree with the other on what they believe.
So you may hear the expression, "Evolution is a fact", but what does that mean?
When people say "Evolution is a theory", what do they mean?

Many scientists and philosophers of science have described evolution as fact and theory, a phrase which was used as the title of an article by paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould in 1981. He describes fact in science as meaning data, not known with absolute certainty but "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent".

How is evolution a theory, when evolution is a fact, and the theory of evolution is the explanation?
Confusing?

This article in the New York Times sums up some of what I believe.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Most people's definition of "evolution" includes the unsubstantiated claim that such minor changes over time means that an amoeba can become a dinosaur, given a few million years. o_O

I acknowledge that "adaptation" can change the physical characteristics of any species within a 'family' of creatures over generations when environmental changes also mean a change in diet....each is equipped to make those changes naturally as a survival mechanism (e.g. Peppered Moth or Darwin's finches)......but it is a fact that science cannot take the small changes that occur in one species and claim "evolution" on a macro scale, as if one family of creatures can become a different family, given enough time......and then treat that idea as if it must be a fact. (e.g. whale evolution, where the first "whale" was claimed to be a four legged furry land dweller, the size of a dog.) This is an assumption......not the same as a fact at all.

I believe that the line gets blurred even for scientists keen to get their evolutionary message across. (some relishing the idea of killing off God for good) But, when does science fact become science fiction?.....evolution is a classic example IMO.....not that gradual changes occurred in any given species over time, but at its very foundation where claims are made and real evidence is missing......lots of it.
I like how you started that.
Most people's definition of "evolution" includes the unsubstantiated claim that such minor changes over time means...
Yes. They include things they believe, into the observable facts.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
In my personal view, this definition seems accurate... Evolution (in biology) is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. These characteristics are the expressions of genes that are passed on from parent to offspring during reproduction. Different characteristics tend to exist within any given population as a result of mutation, genetic recombination and other sources of genetic variation.

The above is observed.
According to Evolution101, All available evidence supports the central conclusions of evolutionary theory, that life on Earth has evolved and that species share common ancestors. Biologists are not arguing about these conclusions. But they are trying to figure out how evolution happens, and that's not an easy job.

Some of the questions that evolutionary biologists are trying to answer include:
  1. Does evolution tend to proceed slowly and steadily or in quick jumps?
Evolution is driven by environmental change. If the environment does not change or changes very slowly, therefore evolution will be slow. Also, very desirable environments like tropical forests, coastal tidal regions, and coral reefs the environment creates great genetic diversity, which is fertile grounds for evolution more rapid evolution when environments change. These very desirable abundant environments also preserve ancient species such as sponges, corals, and micro=organism populations. More marginal the environment such as mountains and deserts have limited diversity and slow evolution rates.

Why are some clades very diverse and some unusually sparse?

Again . . . evolution is environmentally driven, and sparse environments produce sparse diversity. and more abundant suitable environments produce very genetically diverse populations.

How does evolution produce new and complex features?

The vaste evidence of the evolution of the eye from simple light sensitive single celled organism with the same genetic identity evolved to a number of different eye types with the same basic genes. Again . . . this is environmentally driven as the benefit of more complex eyes resulted in the natural selection advantage. This has been dealt with many times with references and so far you have chosen to ignore it.

Evolution of the eye: Evolution: Library: Evolution of the Eye


[/quote] Are there trends in evolution, and if so, what processes generate them? [/quote]

Trends? Does not compute.

The natural processes that generate evolution is the type of environment, and change in the environment.


Many scientists and philosophers of science have described evolution as fact and theory, a phrase which was used as the title of an article by paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould in 1981. He describes fact in science as meaning data, not known with absolute certainty but "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent".

A bit confusing and misleading that some describe evolution as a fact or theory mostly in layman articles. In reality facts are the direct observable evidence that supports all sciences including the science of evolution. In reality Evolution. The description of evolution as a 'theory' by 'some' is ambiguous, and misleading as to what a theory is in science. As described a theory is a hypothesis that may be falsified by objective verifiable evidence to demonstrate 'predictable' scientific results, and by this criteria evolution is indeed a successfully falsified theory with consistent predictable scientific research results.

Gould's book is OK as far as a layman's reference, but remains a layman's reference and NOT per reviewed scientific texts and research articles

The reality is that the 'science' of evolution involves many falsifiable theories in physics, chemistry, biology, geology, genetics, and paleontology. Like all sciences there is over 200 years of contemporary scientific methods that support ALL sciences including the science of evolution.

How is evolution a theory, when evolution is a fact, and the theory of evolution is the explanation? Confusing?

It is confusing, because most of these references are in layman articles, and NOT per reviewed scientific articles that falsify the sciences that support evolution. The concept of 'What is a 'theory?' as it relatesto evolution is discussed above.

This article in the New York Times sums up some of what I believe.

OK, but still basically a layman's article.
 
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Yazata

Active Member
Wasn't this intended to be a thread about defining the word 'evolution?

How did it become an atheists barking at Deeje's trolling thread?

Whatever it is, you've all effectively hijacked what might have been a good thoughtful discussion.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm looking up definitions, and the first one I came across is this (short and sweet) --
"the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth."
Do you agree with it?
Given the difficulty of defining such a complex system down to one or two sentences, it is a reasonable basic definition.

What are you looking for?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
I'm looking up definitions, and the first one I came across is this (short and sweet) --
"the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth."
Do you agree with it?
Yes. People like to redefine it so they can pretend that natural selection automatically equals common ancestry.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I'm looking up definitions, and the first one I came across is this (short and sweet) --
"the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth."
Do you agree with it?

God can't be proven (except by psychic prediction).

Why, then, must we define evolution? This is tantamount to putting the burden of proof on scientists.

Twilight Hue mentioned that the environment is also a factor. Consider SETI (Search For Extra Terrestrial Intelligence), which focuses somewhat on earth-like environments (water, etc.) Of course, that is a search for life as we know it....but what about life as we don't know it?

InfraBenji said that evolution relies on natural selection. Entirely? Could there be a fluke in which a less able species dominated? Not everyone has married a perfect mate....some mates are terrible.

The Chixulub impact changed evolution. It dimmed the sun, which killed or weakened a lot of plants, and that greatly altered the food chain, so the biggest carnivores at the top of that chain were harmed the most (wiped out, except their offspring (birds, lizards, and mammals) still exist).

The K-Pg layer (formerly KT layer) poignantly demarks the impact and mass extinctions, but also delineates the "punctuated equilibrium" that ensued. Punctuated equilibrium is a hitherto unexplained speciation at the boundary. I think that I can elucidate this speciation: When many members of a species die off, the surviving members must mate to procreate. Yet, that produces more inbreeding, and that inbreeding produces more mutations, which gives "natural selection" more choices to winnow out. Once mass extinction occurred, there were new ground rules for natural selection (didn't have to evade huge dinosaurs if huge dinosaurs no longer existed). So, some mutations gained a greater foothold than others, thus accelerating evolution.

In summary, natural selection was not the only factor stimulating evolution, but diminished population created more mutations for natural selection to select.

Deeje asserted that we have no proof that whales were once small land mammals about the size of dogs. I agree....they could have been the size of blue whales, treated like dogs, but not properly trained to not jump on their owners or others while walking them. As a consequence, the owners of the dog/whales could have ordered them into the ocean (you don't want a pet blue whale jumping on you). If it lifts a leg......run.

How did we start with apes, which blended perfectly with their environment, then evolve to man, who's Republicans deny Global Warming, rape the environment, poison the streams, cut the timber, constantly assert that they are fighting evil (thou shalt not kill) and assert that they have a greater intelligence? Didn't evolution go in reverse?

The first thing people did when they realized that the melting poles allowed a polar bear to mate with a brown bear was to shoot (kill) the child. Good thing we're so smart, right?

Suave says that evolution (to a different species) is about not being able to procreate with another species. Yet, there are plenty of different species that do (horses and donkeys). Mule offspring can "sometimes" mate, though there is a chromosome mismatch.

Lions and tigers breed ligers and tigons which can have offspring.

Sometimes (especially in the case of insects), inability to procreate is a matter of geometry....the sexual apparatus physically won't fit (like playing Tetris with the wrong pieces).

List of genetic hybrids - Wikipedia
 

Earthtank

Active Member
I'm looking up definitions, and the first one I came across is this (short and sweet) --
"the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth."
Do you agree with it?
same as the corona virus, a hoax
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes. People like to redefine it so they can pretend that natural selection automatically equals common ancestry.
Evolution is not redefined, and no natural selection does not automatically equate common ancestry. More than 200 years of scientific research, Objective verifiable evidence, and discoveries involving Physics, Biology, Organic Chemistry, Geology, Paleontology, Genetics, Comparative Anatomy determined that the common ancestry of evolution of life on earth is the only explanation that fits the evidence.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Evolution is driven by environmental change. If the environment does not change or changes very slowly, therefore evolution will be slow. Also, very desirable environments like tropical forests, coastal tidal regions, and coral reefs the environment creates great genetic diversity, which is fertile grounds for evolution more rapid evolution when environments change. These very desirable abundant environments also preserve ancient species such as sponges, corals, and micro=organism populations. More marginal the environment such as mountains and deserts have limited diversity and slow evolution rates.
https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_51
https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_51
Does evolution occur in rapid bursts or gradually? This question is difficult to answer because we can't replay the past with a stopwatch in hand.
Does a jump in the fossil record necessarily mean that evolution has happened in a "quick" jump?
We expect to see a jump in the fossil record if evolution has occurred as a "quick" jump, but a jump in the fossil record can also be explained by irregular fossil preservation.
This possibility can make it difficult to conclude that evolution has happened rapidly.
We observe examples of both slow, steady change and rapid, periodic change in the fossil record. Both happen. But scientists are trying to determine which pace is more typical of evolution and how each sort of evolutionary change happens.


Some of the questions that evolutionary biologists are trying to answer include:
  1. Does evolution tend to proceed slowly and steadily or in quick jumps?

Again . . . evolution is environmentally driven, and sparse environments produce sparse diversity. and more abundant suitable environments produce very genetically diverse populations.

Some of the questions that evolutionary biologists are trying to answer include:


2. Why are some clades very diverse and some unusually sparse?

The vaste evidence of the evolution of the eye from simple light sensitive single celled organism with the same genetic identity evolved to a number of different eye types with the same basic genes. Again . . . this is environmentally driven as the benefit of more complex eyes resulted in the natural selection advantage. This has been dealt with many times with references and so far you have chosen to ignore it.

Evolution of the eye: Evolution: Library: Evolution of the Eye
Scientists have come up with scenarios through which the first eye-like structure, a light-sensitive pigmented spot on the skin, could have gone through changes and complexities to form the human eye, with its many parts and astounding abilities.

Through natural selection, different types of eyes have emerged in evolutionary history...

Biologists use the range of less complex light sensitive structures that exist in living species today to hypothesize the various evolutionary stages eyes may have gone through.

Here's how some scientists think some eyes may have evolved...


That's similar to what I read here. Evolution of biological complexity - Wikipedia
Many biologists used to believe that evolution was progressive (orthogenesis) and had a direction that led towards so-called "higher organisms", despite a lack of evidence for this viewpoint. This idea of "progression" and "higher organisms" in evolution is now regarded as misleading, with natural selection having no intrinsic direction and organisms selected for either increased or decreased complexity in response to local environmental conditions.

Then at least three hypotheses are proposed.
These ideas are not an answer to the question... so I wonder why you thought it a good idea to refer to a hypothesis.
The berkeley website already acknowledged the fact that there are hypotheses, (There are several ways such complex novelties may evolve:) and it stated the facts.
Some of the questions that evolutionary biologists are trying to answer include:

3. How does evolution produce new and complex features?
Are you saying you disagree with this information?
Are you saying you have the answer, and other scientists need to get with it?

When you say this has been dealt with many times with references, and I have chosen to ignore it, are you saying this, because it sounds like a good thing for you to say, or because you can actually prove it to be true?
I say you are lying, and I challenge you to demonstrate by references that it is true.
Otherwise, you once again, have told another... what we refer to as... a "bald-faced" lie. Just drawing it to your attention. You're welcomed. :)

A bit confusing and misleading that some describe evolution as a fact or theory mostly in layman articles. In reality facts are the direct observable evidence that supports all sciences including the science of evolution.
Can you provide a link where you got this definition, or is it yours, because a fact is not exclusively related to science. Many facts are unrelated to science, and are facts.
In fact, scientists gathers facts, and examines facts.
Many times facts were against "science", and scientists discovered those facts...after the fact.

In reality Evolution. The description of evolution as a 'theory' by 'some' is ambiguous, and misleading as to what a theory is in science. As described a theory is a hypothesis that may be falsified by objective verifiable evidence to demonstrate 'predictable' scientific results, and by this criteria evolution is indeed a successfully falsified theory with consistent predictable scientific research results.

Gould's book is OK as far as a layman's reference, but remains a layman's reference and NOT per reviewed scientific texts and research articles

The reality is that the 'science' of evolution involves many falsifiable theories in physics, chemistry, biology, geology, genetics, and paleontology. Like all sciences there is over 200 years of contemporary scientific methods that support ALL sciences including the science of evolution.


It is confusing, because most of these references are in layman articles, and NOT per reviewed scientific articles that falsify the sciences that support evolution. The concept of 'What is a 'theory?' as it relatesto evolution is discussed above.


OK, but still basically a layman's article.
Thank you. @YoursTrue will appreciate that bit, I think. :)
 

infrabenji

Active Member
Is Ben Elohim directly translatable as barabba? How about Barnasha and Adham? what I don't really understand is if both languages can replace an allusion to language interchangeably.
I think it’s just a matter of dates with Barnasha being used in post biblical literature. Do you mean The Hebrew expression "son of man” (בן–אדם) Ben Adam or in Aramaic Bar Adam? Yeah if I remember correctly and I could be wrong but yes I believe they are interchangeable. Just depends on the date of the material for which one is used. I hope that helps, if not, well that’ll tell you how rusty I am lol.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Does evolution occur in rapid bursts or gradually? This question is difficult to answer because we can't replay the past with a stopwatch in hand.
Does a jump in the fossil record necessarily mean that evolution has happened in a "quick" jump?
We expect to see a jump in the fossil record if evolution has occurred as a "quick" jump, but a jump in the fossil record can also be explained by irregular fossil preservation.
This possibility can make it difficult to conclude that evolution has happened rapidly.
We observe examples of both slow, steady change and rapid, periodic change in the fossil record. Both happen. But scientists are trying to determine which pace is more typical of evolution and how each sort of evolutionary change happens.


Some of the questions that evolutionary biologists are trying to answer include:
  1. Does evolution tend to proceed slowly and steadily or in quick jumps?


Some of the questions that evolutionary biologists are trying to answer include:


2. Why are some clades very diverse and some unusually sparse?


Scientists have come up with scenarios through which the first eye-like structure, a light-sensitive pigmented spot on the skin, could have gone through changes and complexities to form the human eye, with its many parts and astounding abilities.

Through natural selection, different types of eyes have emerged in evolutionary history...

Biologists use the range of less complex light sensitive structures that exist in living species today to hypothesize the various evolutionary stages eyes may have gone through.

Here's how some scientists think some eyes may have evolved...


That's similar to what I read here. Evolution of biological complexity - Wikipedia
Many biologists used to believe that evolution was progressive (orthogenesis) and had a direction that led towards so-called "higher organisms", despite a lack of evidence for this viewpoint. This idea of "progression" and "higher organisms" in evolution is now regarded as misleading, with natural selection having no intrinsic direction and organisms selected for either increased or decreased complexity in response to local environmental conditions.

Then at least three hypotheses are proposed.
These ideas are not an answer to the question... so I wonder why you thought it a good idea to refer to a hypothesis.
The berkeley website already acknowledged the fact that there are hypotheses, (There are several ways such complex novelties may evolve:) and it stated the facts.
Some of the questions that evolutionary biologists are trying to answer include:

3. How does evolution produce new and complex features?
Are you saying you disagree with this information?
Are you saying you have the answer, and other scientists need to get with it?

When you say this has been dealt with many times with references, and I have chosen to ignore it, are you saying this, because it sounds like a good thing for you to say, or because you can actually prove it to be true?
I say you are lying, and I challenge you to demonstrate by references that it is true.
Otherwise, you once again, have told another... what we refer to as... a "bald-faced" lie. Just drawing it to your attention. You're welcomed. :)


Can you provide a link where you got this definition, or is it yours, because a fact is not exclusively related to science. Many facts are unrelated to science, and are facts.
In fact, scientists gathers facts, and examines facts.
Many times facts were against "science", and scientists discovered those facts...after the fact.


Thank you. @YoursTrue will appreciate that bit, I think. :)

This an unfortunately a rambling failure to respond to my post. My answers were specific and based on science. Many of your rambling statements concerning science are not true and confusing. Some of false statements are in bold, underline and italics.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I'm looking up definitions, and the first one I came across is this (short and sweet) --
"the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth."
Do you agree with it?
Evolution is an “umbrella term” that has many definitions.

In the context of biology there are 3 relevant definitions

1 organism change and adapt

2a common ancestry, (we share a common ancestor with chimps )

2b Universal common ancestry (all life shares a common ancestor)

3 The complexity and diversity of life is mainly due to random variation and natural selection (eyes evolved from simpler organs by this mechanism)

Note that accepting any of these doesn’t imply that you have to accept the other 2
 

leroy

Well-Known Member

The vaste evidence of the evolution of the eye from simple light sensitive single celled organism with the same genetic identity evolved to a number of different eye types with the same basic genes. Again . . . this is environmentally driven as the benefit of more complex eyes resulted in the natural selection advantage. This has been dealt with many times with references and so far you have chosen to ignore it.

Evolution of the eye: Evolution: Library: Evolution of the Eye


e.
That is just a story, what you have to show is that there is a step by step path where the light sensitive cell evolved in to a modern eye

1 each step has to be achievable in 1 generation (one mutation for example)

2 each step has to have a selective benefit
 
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