How does “Hear, O Israel, YAHWEH, our God, is one” prove that YAHWEH is three persons

[Muffled]

How are you saying that Jesus knows all things:

There were many things Jesus did not know (of himself!)

Jesus knew what he knew WHEN the Father REVEALED them to him!:

• “Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.” (John 5:19)

Are you reading the same scriptures as is in the Christian Bible - or do you have some kind of redacted version!!!

The real problem is that you are not ashamed when you are so often found to be wrong! You just ignore the wrongness of your ideology and move onto your next wrongful thinking!!

I guess I have to learn to read the Bible the way you do. I believe instead of Jesus knows all things it actually reads Jesus only knows what His Father tells Him. Maybe you need to do your own translation since you know what should have been said instead of what was actually said.

 

[Muffled]

Soapy, the root of the problem is in the Christian idea that Jesus is the divine Son of God. Once you say that's true, then you have to try to figure out what exactly the relationship of Jesus is to the Father. Is he the same person as the Father? Is he entirely separate? The idea of Trinitarianism is, at the expense of being sensible, acknowledge that there is only on God, but still say that God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit are separate persons.

For me as a Jew, the truth is obvious -- Jesus is not divine in any sense. He was a nice Jewish man who taught Torah, and tried but failed to be the messiah.

I believe people say what they think is obvious because they have no proof. The proof will be in the pudding when Jesus returns but If you are obstinate you will not make it into eternal life.

I believe that is a Biblical concept not limited to the New Covenant.

I believe it makes perfect sense. Those who are not logical seem to have that problem because they think with their emotions.

 

[Muffled]

Where do you see the Trinity in Isaiah 9:6,7? It's a verse about King Hezekiah.

Can you please quote and cite the verse from the quran that you think alludes to the trinity?

Qu'ran 2:253

I don't see Hezekiah in the introduction. I see Galilee. 9:1 ...the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time he has made glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I believe people say what they think is obvious because they have no proof. The proof will be in the pudding when Jesus returns but If you are obstinate you will not make it into eternal life.

I believe that is a Biblical concept not limited to the New Covenant.

I believe it makes perfect sense. Those who are not logical seem to have that problem because they think with their emotions.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man...nor a son of man.
1 Samuel 15:29 for he is not a man
Hosea 11:9 I am God and not a man
Job 9:32 For he is not a man

 

[Soapy]

I guess I have to learn to read the Bible the way you do. I believe instead of Jesus knows all things it actually reads Jesus only knows what His Father tells Him. Maybe you need to do your own translation since you know what should have been said instead of what was actually said.

You should read the Bible ‘the way I do’… Yes.

Jesus said it himself - that what he does is what the Father shows him to do.

Did you not read that in the Bible?

Did you not read that Jesus does not know the day and hour if his return?

Did you not read that Jesus does not know who is to be on his left and on his right in the new kingdom?

Did you not read that certain things are left in the hands (the time frame) of the Father (God: YAHWEH)?

Did you not read that Jesus was taught by the Father? If Jesus was taught then it means prior to being taught he did not know… but the one teaching him did know!

So, yes, you do need to read the Bible ‘the way I do’ (by your words!)

 

[Soapy]

I believe people say what they think is obvious because they have no proof. The proof will be in the pudding when Jesus returns but If you are obstinate you will not make it into eternal life.

I believe that is a Biblical concept not limited to the New Covenant.

I believe it makes perfect sense. Those who are not logical seem to have that problem because they think with their emotions.

Here , you are rightly claiming against yourself.

Expressing the truth of a statement in a bid to deceive is not a good thing!!

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all,
God is ONE "PERSON" in an ECHAD, or the Plurality of himself, H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah), EXPRESSED as H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem'), whichid is THE "FIRST", AND THE "LAST" OF GOD in his creation, in TIME, ORDER, PLACE , or RANK. for the term "ONE" here in Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" is trhe Hebrew word,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

the source of the definition above is the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments. as definition #2. states, (as an ordinal) first. ordinal First "LORD"/Title Father, CREATOR, and MAKER of All things. Ordinal Last, title, "Son", REDEEMER and SAVIOUR of all that he created, and made.
H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem' is the plura of H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah,(see Genesis 1:1, "GOD). again meaning, he's the First and the Last of himself in his CREATION.

so the Plurality of God is not in PERSONS, but in NATURE.

101G.

 

[rosends]

GINOLJC, to all,
God is ONE "PERSON" in an ECHAD, or the Plurality of himself, H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah), EXPRESSED as H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem'), whichid is THE "FIRST", AND THE "LAST" OF GOD in his creation, in TIME, ORDER, PLACE , or RANK. for the term "ONE" here in Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" is trhe Hebrew word,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

the source of the definition above is the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments. as definition #2. states, (as an ordinal) first. ordinal First "LORD"/Title Father, CREATOR, and MAKER of All things. Ordinal Last, title, "Son", REDEEMER and SAVIOUR of all that he created, and made.
H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem' is the plura of H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah,(see Genesis 1:1, "GOD). again meaning, he's the First and the Last of himself in his CREATION.

so the Plurality of God is not in PERSONS, but in NATURE.

101G.

yeah, no. Echad is generally a cardinal number, the ordinal being rishon (first). And the claim of "united" is the nature of any word "one" because anything can be broken into constitutent parts (one car has all sorts of parts...one person, even one atom has parts). Echad in Hebrew is "one" but also in an undivided sense when it applies to God.

Elo-him is often a singular word, not a plural. Check the verb.

 

[101G]

yeah, no. Echad is generally a cardinal number, the ordinal being rishon (first). And the claim of "united" is the nature of any word "one" because anything can be broken into constitutent parts (one car has all sorts of parts...one person, even one atom has parts). Echad in Hebrew is "one" but also in an undivided sense when it applies to God.

Elo-him is often a singular word, not a plural. Check the verb.

First thanks for the reply, second, elohiym is the plural of H433, my source Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments.

H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) n-m.
אֱלֹהַּ 'eloahh (el-o'-ah) [shortened (rarely)]
1. one with supreme strength and ability.
2. the Supreme Being, God the Creator, Yahweh by name.
3. a supreme entity, a god-like creature (that is, one of God's supreme creations, or one of man's inventions).
[probably prolonged (emphat.) from H410]
KJV: God, god.
Root(s): H410

 

[IndigoChild5559]

..oops

 

[rosends]

First thanks for the reply, second, elohiym is the plural of H433, my source Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments.

H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) n-m.
אֱלֹהַּ 'eloahh (el-o'-ah) [shortened (rarely)]
1. one with supreme strength and ability.
2. the Supreme Being, God the Creator, Yahweh by name.
3. a supreme entity, a god-like creature (that is, one of God's supreme creations, or one of man's inventions).
[probably prolonged (emphat.) from H410]
KJV: God, god.
Root(s): H410

Except that in Hebrew, often the number of a noun is determined by the number if the verb. So a singular verb sets a noun as singular, as is the case with the word Elo-him in most cases. Moses is set as an Elohim over Egypt. A plural? No

Nachmanides explains the word as meaning "Master of all forces" and he came well before your dictionary. I'll stick with the grammar and the Ramban.

 

[101G]

but also in an undivided sense when it applies to God.

100% correct. supportive scriptures.
#1. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." THIS IS ONE PERSON, the First and the Last.

#2/ Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." THIS IS ONE PERSON, the First and the Last.

#3. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
again, one person.

 

[rosends]

100% correct. supportive scriptures.
#1. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." THIS IS ONE PERSON, the First and the Last.

#2/ Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." THIS IS ONE PERSON, the First and the Last.

#3. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
again, one person.

41:4 uses the word Rishon, not echad.
44:6 uses Rishon, not echad
48:12 uses Rishon, not echad.

 

[101G]

41:4 uses the word Rishon, not echad.
44:6 uses Rishon, not echad
48:12 uses Rishon, not echad.

Must disagree, First, according to Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English. 2. Preceding all others in the order of time..and if in "ORDER" then it's Ordinal and not cardinal
H7223 רִאשׁוֹן ri'shown (ree-shone') adj.
רִאשֹׁן ri'shon (ree-shone')
first, in place, time or rank (as adjective or noun).
[from H7221]
KJV: ancestor, (that were) before(-time), beginning, eldest, first, fore(-father) (-most), former (thing), of old time, past.
Root(s): H7221

here "TIME" set the ORDER as to how "First" is used., again that's Ordinal and not cardinal'

this is the same with Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 48:12.

101G

 

[rosends]

Must disagree, First, according to Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English. 2. Preceding all others in the order of time..and if in "ORDER" then it's Ordinal and not cardinal
H7223 רִאשׁוֹן ri'shown (ree-shone') adj.
רִאשֹׁן ri'shon (ree-shone')
first, in place, time or rank (as adjective or noun).
[from H7221]
KJV: ancestor, (that were) before(-time), beginning, eldest, first, fore(-father) (-most), former (thing), of old time, past.
Root(s): H7221

here "TIME" set the ORDER as to how "First" is used., again that's Ordinal and not cardinal'

this is the same with Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 48:12.

101G

I'm not sure how you can disagree
You were making an argument about the meaning of the word echad as an ordinal and quoted 3 verses, none of which uses the word echad. Each one uses rishon. Can you read Hebrew?

 

[101G]

I'm not sure how you can disagree
You were making an argument about the meaning of the word echad as an ordinal and quoted 3 verses, none of which uses the word echad. Each one uses rishon. Can you read Hebrew?

GINOLJC, to all
no, I do not read Hebrew, but I have studied what those who do read Hebrew and hear what they say. and many say the term here in these verses are ordinal in designation. now, me, personally, I'm not a Hebrew expert, but I can understand the meaning of definitions and how a term is used, and second, it not if I can read Hebrew or not, it has been translated for us who speak and read English. so, I'm an end user, if you have a complaint about and how a translation was made, or how it is used or describe, see them who translated the words, and not me. in the translated definition, it states how the term is used. and that is how and why I must go by.

so, by understanding the term translate, as here, (ONE), and how it is used in scripture, I have concluded that, the term "First" here, confirm that it is Ordinal in nature and not Cardinal. to the term Last as stated by the definitions in "ORDER", in TIME.

if you have some reason why, from the definitions given, that the term "First" in the verses given are not Ordinal in Nature, please post your reasons why, (beside JUST YOUR UNDERSTANDING), else I will stand by the definitions given.

101G.

 

[rosends]

GINOLJC, to all
no, I do not read Hebrew, but I have studied what those who do read Hebrew and hear what they say. and many say the term here in these verses are ordinal in designation. now, me, personally, I'm not a Hebrew expert, but I can understand the meaning of definitions and how a term is used, and second, it not if I can read Hebrew or not, it has been translated for us who speak and read English. so, I'm an end user, if you have a complaint about and how a translation was made, or how it is used or describe, see them who translated the words, and not me. in the translated definition, it states how the term is used. and that is how and why I must go by.

so, by understanding the term translate, as here, (ONE), and how it is used in scripture, I have concluded that, the term "First" here, confirm that it is Ordinal in nature and not Cardinal. to the term Last as stated by the definitions in "ORDER", in TIME.

if you have some reason why, from the definitions given, that the term "First" in the verses given are not Ordinal in Nature, please post your reasons why, (beside JUST YOUR UNDERSTANDING), else I will stand by the definitions given.

101G.

But in the verses you quote, the word echad is NOT USED. Deciding a meaning based on the translation is nice, as long as the meaning you are deciding on is associated with the word you intend.

Echad is almost always "one."
Rishon is "first." You gave 3 verses with "first" in translation and in each, the Hebrew is Rishon, not echad.

 

[101G]

But in the verses you quote, the word echad is NOT USED.

first thanks for the reply, second, did you not read my post where I said the ECHAD consist of the First and Last? and the Definition I gave was,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

definitionn#2. is where I stated the Verses to show the ECHAD as FIRST and LAST in order in TIME, which is Ordinal in Nature.

101G

 

[rosends]

first thanks for the reply, second, did you not read my post where I said the ECHAD consist of the First and Last? and the Definition I gave was,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

definitionn#2. is where I stated the Verses to show the ECHAD as FIRST and LAST in order in TIME, which is Ordinal in Nature.

101G

Except it isn't an ordinal in almost all cases (when it is used to refer to calendar dates (time), there is a way to read it as ordinal). It is a cardinal word. Deciding that because you want to see it as an ordinal in reference to God it must be ordinal flies in the face of actual usage. When referring to God as first and last, the text explicitly does NOT use the word echad. It uses "rishon."

 

[101G]

in reference to God it must be ordinal flies in the face of actual usage. When referring to God as first and last, the text explicitly does NOT use the word echad. It uses "rishon."

and also you said,

yeah, no. Echad is generally a cardinal number, the ordinal being rishon (first). And the claim of "united" is the nature of any word "one" because anything can be broken into constitutent parts (one car has all sorts of parts...one person, even one atom has parts). Echad in Hebrew is "one" but also in an undivided sense when it applies to God.

I would like to call your attention to the part of your reply above, "Echad in Hebrew is "one" but also in an undivided sense when it applies to God". Good so let's see it in the three verses I gave before.

Scripture #1. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." one person "With" himself in a EQUAL SHARE of himself.

Scripture #2. Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." again one person in the ECHAD of designated TIME.

NOW HERE IS THE REVELATION OF THE "ECHAD" AS ONE IN UNIFICATION.AS "ONE",.

Scripture #3. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." BINGO, there is the unity of ONE. remember my definition of ONE,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

NOTICE definition #1 & [a numeral from H258]
ok, let's see what H258 means,
H258 אָחַד 'achad (aw-chad') v.
1. to unify.
2. (figuratively) collect (one's thoughts).
[perhaps a primitive root]
KJV: go one way or other.

and Isaiah 48:12 shows that unity in First and Last.

101G.