How does Feminism view Men?

[Saint Frankenstein]

Not really I was laughing. But I think we should go our ways with this one.

Mmhmm. Your failure to provide a logical reason for your demonization of individuals based on their (alleged) body parts speaks volumes. I've seen all that needs to be seen here.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Women that do or agree with this are sexist.

How so? What makes you think men are entitled to sexual interest from all women?

 

[Thanda]

"“I'm going to go out on a limb here. I've thought a lot about this one, as a feminist, and as an author. How should traditional roles be portrayed? In fantasy literature there is a school of thought that holds that women must be treated precisely like men. Only the traditional male sphere of power and means of wielding power count. If a woman is shown in a traditionally female role, then she must be being shown as inferior.

After a lot of thought, and some real-life stabs at those traditional roles, I've come to firmly disagree with this idea. For an author to show that only traditional male power and place matter is to discount and belittle the hard and complex lives of our peers and our ancestresses.”"

Sarah Zettel

I love this quote - this is how I see things. I have always felt that women rushing to the workplace in order to be "empowered" is to ignore that fact that there are more type of power in this world than that which money or political position can bestow. And undervaluing those other types of power (by pretending that those who have them but not the mainstream types are un-empowered) actually creates and reinforces patriarchy rather than eliminates it.

 

[freethinker44]

Or how about just leave women who don't want to have sex with you alone.
Is that difficult?

If a woman judges all men because she was raped, she is sexist.
Just use the "is it racist?" test.
If someone fears black people because they were once robbed by a black person, are they racist? Absolutely.

Separatism isn't a reasonable solution to rape trauma, or any trauma.

How so? What makes you think men are entitled to sexual interest from all women?

I don't know, why don't you try asking someone who thinks that.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

If a woman judges all men because she was raped, she is sexist.
Just use the "is it racist?" test.
If someone fears black people because they were once robbed by a black person, are they racist? Absolutely.

Separatism isn't a reasonable solution to rape trauma, or any trauma.

Then obviously you don't understand triggers after trauma.
Why isn't wanting to have sex with males unreasonable? Why is that a concern for you?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Then obviously you don't understand triggers after trauma.
Why isn't wanting to have sex with males unreasonable? Why is that a concern for you?

The healthy thing to do is to address the trauma itself rather than letting it go on. People who have suffered traumatic events should not be coddled or coddle themselves. That creates isolation, paranoia and further issues and does nothing to address the issue. The issue must be recognized and faced in order to heal and move on from it.

Now if a woman just simply isn't into guys, that's fine. But if the real issue is that her view of men/males has been distorted and stunted due to trauma, then that certainly needs addressing. (I'm talking about therapy, being open, mindful and honest about it, not allowing it to control your life and perceptions, etc.; I am not saying that women who have been raped by men need to just go out and get banged by a guy, as you so crudely inferred.)

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

The healthy thing to do is to address the trauma itself rather than letting it go on. People who have suffered traumatic events should not be coddled or coddle themselves. That creates isolation, paranoia and further issues and does nothing to address the issue. The issue must be recognized and faced in order to heal and move on from it.

Now if a woman just simply isn't into guys, that's fine. But if the real issue is that her view of men/males has been distorted and stunted due to trauma, then that certainly needs addressing. (I'm talking about therapy, being open, mindful and honest about it, not allowing it to control your life and perceptions, etc.; I am not saying that women who have been raped by men need to just go out and get banged by a guy, as you so crudely inferred.)

That doesn't mean they have to be comfortable with sleeping with men again at the risk of being re-traumatised. Especially if they have had multiple experiences of abuse. That may be a risk they aren't willing and do not have to take in order to move forward.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That doesn't mean they have to be comfortable with sleeping with men again at the risk of being re-traumatised. Especially if they have had multiple experiences of abuse. That may be a risk they aren't willing and do not have to take in order to move forward.

What if that person is actually attracted to men, even though they have had traumatic experiences with a man or a few men? Unlike what morons like Julie Bindel say, you actually can't choose who/what you're attracted to. You can't just decide "oh, I'm a lesbian" now. You either are or you aren't. Even if you're really a bisexual but you decide to just be intimate with women because you've had some bad experiences with men, that's still not healthy and not addressing the problem. You may not realize it, but sexual trauma does not change your sexuality. A heterosexual or bisexual girl/woman who is raped by a man doesn't all of a sudden become a lesbian because of it.

You seem to think there's no escape from PTSD after you've developed it. That's a very dreary defeatist view of things. It's also false.

The truth is that men and penises in of themselves are not dangerous. A trans woman who happens to have a penis is not some hellish threat to you just by existing or because she identifies and lives as a lesbian. Individuals with penises are not "out to get you". Some of your best lovers may end up being a man or a pre-op/non-op trans woman, but you'd never know because you would reject them out of an irrational phobia. You may go out on a night on the town and meet a beautiful, fun, kind, attractive lady who is great to be around and you fancy her. You're having a great time with her, but she admits to you that she has a penis. Despite her being a wonderful, sexy person, you'd reject her simply because of that? How does that make a bit of sense? You may not know what she likes in bed or anything, but just because of the presence of a certain organ, you'll reject her? What's the logic there? It's not like the penis wasn't always there while you were having so much fun with her. It didn't just magically appear, you know. She's still the same person you're having a great time with.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

What if that person is actually attracted to men, even though they have had traumatic experiences with a man or a few men? Unlike what morons like Julie Bindel say, you actually can't choose who/what you're attracted to. You can't just decide "oh, I'm a lesbian" now. You either are or you aren't. Even if you're really a bisexual but you decide to just be intimate with women because you've had some bad experiences with men, that's still not healthy and not addressing the problem. You may not realize it, but sexual trauma does not change your sexuality. A heterosexual or bisexual girl/woman who is raped by a man doesn't all of a sudden become a lesbian because of it.

You seem to think there's no escape from PTSD after you've developed it. That's a very dreary defeatist view of things. It's also false.

The truth is that men and penises in of themselves are not dangerous. A trans woman who happens to have a penis is not some hellish threat to you just by existing or because she identifies and lives as a lesbian. Individuals with penises are not "out to get you". Some of your best lovers may end up being a man or a pre-op/non-op trans woman, but you'd never know because you would reject them out of an irrational phobia. You may go out on a night on the town and meet a beautiful, fun, kind, attractive lady who is great to be around and you fancy her. You're having a great time with her, but she admits to you that she has a penis. Despite her being a wonderful, sexy person, you'd reject her simply because of that? How does that make a bit of sense? You may not know what she likes in bed or anything, but just because of the presence of a certain organ, you'll reject her? What's the logic there? It's not like the penis wasn't always there while you were having so much fun with her. It didn't just magically appear, you know. She's still the same person you're having a great time with.

You can't just wake up one day and be a lesbian. Correct. But so?
Some people may prefer celibacy.
And some bisexual women may prefer being with just women, why is that not healthy? Are women lying when they say they prefer it, or?
Some people may not find "missing out on some orgasms" a convincing enough reason.

 

[freethinker44]

Then obviously you don't understand triggers after trauma. Why isn't wanting to have sex with males unreasonable? Why is that a concern for you?

It's not unreasonable, I myself don't want to have sex with males. However, making that decision because you are sexist is unreasonable.

 

[freethinker44]

That doesn't mean they have to be comfortable with sleeping with men again at the risk of being re-traumatised. Especially if they have had multiple experiences of abuse. That may be a risk they aren't willing and do not have to take in order to move forward.

What reputable psychology study suggests that repression and avoidance is a healthy way to deal with trauma?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You can't just wake up one day and be a lesbian. Correct. But so?
Some people may prefer celibacy.
And some bisexual women may prefer being with just women, why is that not healthy? Are women lying when they say they prefer it, or?
Some people may not find "missing out on some orgasms" a convincing enough reason.

You seem to be either missing my point entirely or choosing not to address my points. The problem here is not addressing trauma and seeking to heal and move on from it. The problem is letting it control your life, to hold you prisoner. I have not seen one post from you so far that supports trauma survivors actually taking steps to heal from it. You are just supporting avoidance tactics and repression of a person's natural sexuality (when the woman is naturally heterosexual or bisexual), which don't do a thing to help the situation but only make it worse. Do you support helping women to heal or not? Or do women healing from trauma imperil your political ideology and its goals?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I don't know, why don't you try asking someone who thinks that.

Looks like I mistook your position for something else, then.

We disagree on something, though: I think women have the right to be separatists, just as men have the right to be such. Do I agree with that stance? No. Do I think it makes the separatist a bad person? Not necessarily; I believe one has to consider why they are separatists instead of demonizing them right off the bat.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Looks like I mistook your position for something else, then.

We disagree on something, though: I think women have the right to be separatists, just as men have the right to be such. Do I agree with that stance? No. Do I think it makes the separatist a bad person? Not necessarily; I believe one has to consider why they are separatists instead of demonizing them right off the bat.

They can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't effect others, but the issue is whether their separatism is grounded in reason and logic. It is generally not, whether it is gender separatism or racial separatism.

 

[Debater Slayer]

They can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't effect others, but the issue is whether their separatism is grounded in reason and logic. It is generally not, whether it is gender separatism or racial separatism.

I can see your point, Frank, but please consider this hypothetical situation: someone has many friends of other religions. At least a few of them hurt that person severely, and the rest are not close to him/her. As a result, this person chooses to only befriend people of his/her religion. They don't hate people of other religions; they just feel more comfortable with those of similar beliefs.

Does that make them bigots or bad people?

 

[freethinker44]

Or do women healing from trauma imperil your political ideology and its goals?

Nailed it!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I can see your point, Frank, but please consider this hypothetical situation: someone has many friends of other religions. At least a few of them hurt that person severely, and the rest are not close to him/her. As a result, this person chooses to only befriend people of his/her religion. They don't hate people of other religions; they just feel more comfortable with those of similar beliefs.

Does that make them bigots or bad people?

I think that person is not being reasonable or logical.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think that person is not being reasonable or logical.

I think a more important question to ask is whether they are malicious or harmful. If the answer is no, that's what matters most to me.

 

[freethinker44]

I can see your point, Frank, but please consider this hypothetical situation: someone has many friends of other religions. At least a few of them hurt that person severely, and the rest are not close to him/her. As a result, this person chooses to only befriend people of his/her religion. They don't hate people of other religions; they just feel more comfortable with those of similar beliefs.

Does that make them bigots or bad people?

Yes, it does.
You've literally just described the relationship between Islam and western countries. Are western countries wrong to reject Muslims because a few of them hurt us severely?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think a more important question to ask is whether they are malicious or harmful. If the answer is no, that's what matters most to me.

I think that not acting or thinking in a reasoned or logical way is bound to lead to harm in various ways, eventually. Rejecting someone as a friend merely because of their religion is harmful and bigoted, yes.