How does one change one's varna?

[Vinayaka]

I'm sort of chuckling here because while I don't think a shudra, say, would have an issue with my aspiring to their varna, with many, many of the Brahmins I've encountered, it might, no, it would be another story. I cannot discount the majority of my experiences both here in the West and in India with "native" Brahmins; all things considered, such as my appearance as a white, Western Hindu woman--my aspirations, obvious though unstated, were often met with arrogance, resistance, derision or thinly veiled amusement. And that included not only the social elites who "ran" with my famous guru, but also a chunk of the greedy pujaris, as well. Oh, well, LOL, as you say, "Not my problem." However, I would be remiss in my duty if I didn't note that it's refreshing not to get that vibe from you, Sayakji.

There's a westerner working right alongside the Brahmin priests at Rameswaram. He looked far too busy to be able to share his story though.

 

[Vinayaka]

are u saying it is not the case right now that only people belonging to gotra-s traditionally associated with a varna can perform the specific ceremonies in the life rituals associated with that varna? (Note:- I am not talking about new converts)

As usual, I have no idea what you're going on about, lol.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

I am sorry that this was your experience.

See? Thank you. Right there you confirm you fit my conception of what it is to "be" Brahmin! It's not that that magnanimity of heart is exclusive to that varna, but IMO, by the time one "claims" Brahmin as one's varna, that characteristic should just naturally be an integral part of the package.

 

[sayak83]

@Sw. Vandana Jyothi
@Vinayaka

Why is Vinayaka not understanding me? I must be missing something. Can anyone help me? Please.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Why is Vinayaka not understanding me? I must be missing something. Can anyone help me? Please. [/USER]

When I reread the exchange, it appears to me that Vinayakaji is saying or asking if a man's occupation is determining his varna, while you are saying: not necessarily, it's his gotra which will permit him to engage in the rites and rituals pertaining thereto?

Is this close to the meanings of each of you?

 

[sayak83]

When I reread the exchange, it appears to me that Vinayakaji is saying or asking if a man's occupation is determining his varna, while you are saying: not necessarily, it's his gotra which will permit him to engage in the rites and rituals pertaining thereto?

Is this close to the meanings of each of you?

I am saying that a person's varna should be determined by his/her actions, professions etc. However, the practical aspects of varna is associated with the distinctive life and worship rituals of each varna and that is still associated with family clan/gotra system. Thus it is the case that a person of varna X by inclination and profession has to go through the ceremonies associated with varna Y because that is his/her family gotra. I am saying this needs to change.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

I am saying that a person's varna should be determined by his/her actions, professions etc. However, the practical aspects of varna is associated with the distinctive life and worship rituals of each varna and that is still associated with family clan/gotra system. Thus it is the case that a person of varna X by inclination and profession has to go through the ceremonies associated with varna Y because that is his/her family gotra. I am saying this needs to change.

Clear enough for me. Let's see if that clarifies your position for Vinayakaji.

 

[Vinayaka]

I am saying that a person's varna should be determined by his/her actions, professions etc. However, the practical aspects of varna is associated with the distinctive life and worship rituals of each varna and that is still associated with family clan/gotra system. Thus it is the case that a person of varna X by inclination and profession has to go through the ceremonies associated with varna Y because that is his/her family gotra. I am saying this needs to change.

In my experience it either has changed or is in the process of changing. I focus on the positive, but am certainly not familiar with ow your individual community in India (still assuming here) is entrenched in the old ways.

 

[sayak83]

In my experience it either has changed or is in the process of changing. I focus on the positive, but am certainly not familiar with ow your individual community in India (still assuming here) is entrenched in the old ways.

Do you know how it is being changed? I was not being negative. I was asking for information. Is a method of determining and changing varna being practiced anywhere, does it already exist? Does anyone know?

 

[Vinayaka]

Do you know how it is being changed? I was not being negative. I was asking for information. Is a method of determining and changing varna being practiced anywhere, does it already exist? Does anyone know?

I gave you an example. I am not on the ground there, but a friend of mine, born a shudra in Madurai, had his entire family switch to a higher class. He's an engineer, his brother is a lawyer. Modi himself is another example.

 

[sayak83]

I gave you an example. I am not on the ground there, but a friend of mine, born a shudra in Madurai, had his entire family switch to a higher class. He's an engineer, his brother is a lawyer. Modi himself is another example.

I am not talking about profession. Can he do an Upanayan, are his rituals of puja, marraige etc. in accordance with his new varna?

 

[Vinayaka]

I am not talking about profession. Can he do an Upanayan, are his rituals of puja, marraige etc. in accordance with his new varna?

I don't know. I'll have to ask him. I do know he went home for some niece's ritual of some sort. I also know that these things are done differently throughout India, and that some Brahmins, having taken up non-priestly professions, have voluntarily given up their Brahmin status.

 

[sayak83]

I don't know. I'll have to ask him. I do know he went home for some niece's ritual of some sort. I also know that these things are done differently throughout India, and that some Brahmins, having taken up non-priestly professions, have voluntarily given up their Brahmin status.

That would be interesting information to know.

 

[Vinayaka]

That would be interesting information to know.

Why? Is this information going to help you with your sadhana? Will it help you become a better person, improve your character?

 

[sayak83]

Why? Is this information going to help you with your sadhana? Will it help you become a better person, improve your character?

The information, when known, will tell me how varna (as relevant to how it relates to day to day rituals and practice) can be determined and changed (if necessary) from family-gotra based varna. I can then investigate this carefully and point to the relevant information when somebody asks how he/she can go about it.
Aiding others as best as I can in practicing their spiritual sadhana is part of my dharma. So yes, the information, will help me in performing my dharma better.

 

[Vinayaka]

The information, when known, will tell me how varna (as relevant to how it relates to day to day rituals and practice) can be determined and changed (if necessary) from family-gotra based varna. I can then investigate this carefully and point to the relevant information when somebody asks how he/she can go about it.
Aiding others as best as I can in practicing their spiritual sadhana is part of my dharma. So yes, the information, will help me in performing my dharma better.

Sorry, I didn't realise you were a pundit/counsellor.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Sorry, I didn't realise you were a pundit/counsellor.

Ouch, Vinayakaji. Not grokking this animus? You OK? I don't see an error in Sayakji's motive--to help reduce the restrictions permitting people be able to take advantage of the rituals tailored for their natures and attainments? He was asking if your friend had discovered a dharmic way to do it, if I read him correctly.

 

[sayak83]

Sorry, I didn't realise you were a pundit/counsellor.

My family does manage a fairly locally popular Kaali temple and I have performed parts of the puja myself. Eventually i will take on more responsibilities if I return or serve in similar capacity in temples and puja-s here.

But I do not understand. Why does one have to be pandit to provide accurate information that may be useful to others? Should it not be the duty of all Hindus?

 

[sayak83]

Ouch, Vinayakaji. Not grokking this animus? You OK? I don't see an error in Sayakji's motive--to help reduce the restrictions permitting people be able to take advantage of the rituals tailored for their natures and attainments? He was asking if your friend had discovered a dharmic way to do it, if I read him correctly.

Correct. Have I offended you @Vinayaka ?

 

[Vinayaka]

My family does manage a fairly locally popular Kaali temple and I have performed parts of the puja myself. Eventually i will take on more responsibilities if I return or serve in similar capacity in temples and puja-s here.

But I do not understand. Why does one have to be pandit to provide accurate information that may be useful to others? Should it not be the duty of all Hindus?

Thanks for the information. For most of us, the opportunity to advise someone simply doesn't come up, unless we hold some community position where it would, or we're the kind of person who pokes his/her nose into other people's businesses. I assumed you weren't the latter.