• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How does one change one's varna?

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Thanks for the information. For most of us, the opportunity to advise someone simply doesn't come up, unless we hold some community position where it would, or we're the kind of person who pokes his/her nose into other people's businesses. I assumed you weren't the latter.
Yes certainly, why would I interfere in other people's business?
Thanks for the information. For most of us, the opportunity to advise someone simply doesn't come up, unless we hold some community position where it would, or we're the kind of person who pokes his/her nose into other people's businesses. I assumed you weren't the latter.
Your community is very peaceful it seems. In this specific case the question was asked by a child of Indian American Hindu couple when they were explaining the idea behind the varna system. We were discussing it over a recent get together during holi.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yes certainly, why would I interfere in other people's business?

Your community is very peaceful it seems. In this specific case the question was asked by a child of Indian American Hindu couple when they were explaining the idea behind the varna system. We were discussing it over a recent get together during holi.

Yes its friendly, but South Indian. For example, we didn't do Holi at the temple I go to.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It happens naturally. If you are born the son of a farmer, but go to school, get noticed, have your parents send you to college, and become a medical doctor, you've changed your varna.
It's more fluid in today's world, and increasingly so.
This is unorthodox, feel-good Hinduism. You may change your jati, but you're not going to change your varna. Your varna is fixed at birth, like your blood type, species and dharma. Proper observance of dharma may lead to a different varna in your next body, but it's not going to change the human subdivision your born with.
Forgive me, but to this day I am still confused by the following terms: Caste, Varna and Jati. Can someone provide definitions for them and what makes them distinct from one another?
Caste is a layman's term, and a western one, at that. It can mean both varna or jati. I've even seen it used for outcasts. Most of the time it refers to jati, in casual usage.
Varna is one of the four types of humans, sorted by innate characteristics. It's Vedic. It delineates the type of life one's dharmically suited for and should lead.
Jati, I think, is mostly a human construct. It largely corresponds to your tribe, community or vocation. Certain jatis are appropriate for different varnas. A Brahmin may be a teacher or a priest, and a Kshatriya a civil servant or soldier, for example.
Again, I don't understand. You are saying that a military man (a person in the army or navy) is NOT a kshatriya?
You can perform another's jati, but it's not going to be your dharma, and it's certainly not going to change the varna you were born with.
 

Fireside_Hindu

Jai Lakshmi Maa
This is unorthodox, feel-good Hinduism. You may change your jati, but you're not going to change your varna. Your varna is fixed at birth, like your blood type, species and dharma. Proper observance of dharma may lead to a different varna in your next body, but it's not going to change the human subdivision your born with.
Caste is a layman's term, and a western one, at that. It can mean both varna or jati. I've even seen it used for outcasts. Most of the time it refers to jati, in casual usage.
Varna is one of the four types of humans, sorted by innate characteristics. It's Vedic. It delineates the type of life one's dharmically suited for and should lead.
Jati, I think, is mostly a human construct. It largely corresponds to your tribe, community or vocation. Certain jatis are appropriate for different varnas. A Brahmin may be a teacher or a priest, and a Kshatriya a civil servant or soldier, for example.
You can perform another's jati, but it's not going to be your dharma, and it's certainly not going to change the varna you were born with.

Thank you for the reply!

I see. So Varna is a set of innate qualities like, Bravery, Curiosity, Good Observations skills, Patience etc and Jati is the job or career path. So when we see "Caste Descrimination" are we really actually looking at "Jati discrimination"? It would seem difficult to discriminate against someone for their innate qualities.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
This is unorthodox, feel-good Hinduism. You may change your jati, but you're not going to change your varna. Your varna is fixed at birth, like your blood type, species and dharma.

I'm in a sampradaya that largely has ignored caste, so its all good. I am a bit curious to how different this stuff is from region to region in India though.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This is unorthodox, feel-good Hinduism. You may change your jati, but you're not going to change your varna. Your varna is fixed at birth, like your blood type, species and dharma. Proper observance of dharma may lead to a different varna in your next body, but it's not going to change the human subdivision your born with.
Caste is a layman's term, and a western one, at that. It can mean both varna or jati. I've even seen it used for outcasts. Most of the time it refers to jati, in casual usage.
Varna is one of the four types of humans, sorted by innate characteristics. It's Vedic. It delineates the type of life one's dharmically suited for and should lead.
Jati, I think, is mostly a human construct. It largely corresponds to your tribe, community or vocation. Certain jatis are appropriate for different varnas. A Brahmin may be a teacher or a priest, and a Kshatriya a civil servant or soldier, for example.
You can perform another's jati, but it's not going to be your dharma, and it's certainly not going to change the varna you were born with.
I disagree on this. Varna depends on characteristics and merit that a person exhibits in life and is not based on birth. Thus a person with martial inclinations is of Kshatriya varna regardless of his birth.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thank you for the reply!

I see. So Varna is a set of innate qualities like, Bravery, Curiosity, Good Observations skills, Patience etc and Jati is the job or career path. So when we see "Caste Descrimination" are we really actually looking at "Jati discrimination"? It would seem difficult to discriminate against someone for their innate qualities.
Well, I'm not sure bravery, curiosity or observational skills are necessarily innate, but you're on the right track.

Yes, I think most of the 'caste' squabbling you see is jati related. Historically, people were born into their own communities and stayed there. Jati's multiplied into innumerable little closed societies, each with its own little social/occupational niche. There were all sorts of rules about intercourse between these. Rock the boat and there's likely to be trouble.

Keep in mind, though, that India's not a homogenous society, Nor is Hinduism a single religion. There are exceptions to everything. The best you can do is generalise.
I disagree on this. Varna depends on characteristics and merit that a person exhibits in life and is not based on birth. Thus a person with martial inclinations is of Kshatriya varna regardless of his birth.
Theologically and traditionally, I think varna's been considered pretty well fixed, even jatis are traditionally pretty rigid.
But I guess you never know. Sexual orientation used to be considered pretty fixed and black-and-white, too, so maybe a kshatriya could be born of a vaishya or brahmin.
Intentionally changing your physiology and interconnection with the universe, though? -- I'm skeptical.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, I'm not sure bravery, curiosity or observational skills are necessarily innate, but you're on the right track.

Yes, I think most of the 'caste' squabbling you see is jati related. Historically, people were born into their own communities and stayed there. Jati's multiplied into innumerable little closed societies, each with its own little social/occupational niche. There were all sorts of rules about intercourse between these. Rock the boat and there's likely to be trouble.

Keep in mind, though, that India's not a homogenous society, Nor is Hinduism a single religion. There are exceptions to everything. The best you can do is generalise.
Theologically and traditionally, I think varna's been considered pretty well fixed, even jatis are traditionally pretty rigid.
But I guess you never know. Sexual orientation used to be considered pretty fixed and black-and-white, too, so maybe a kshatriya could be born of a vaishya or brahmin.
Intentionally changing your physiology and interconnection with the universe, though? -- I'm skeptical.
In a world where a person's skills are restricted to that which runs through family (pre-modern world), karma would ensure that generally people are reborn in appropriate family lineages. Not so when the world is no longer arranged in such a fashion (modern world).
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, this whole area needs a lot of study. Different traditions abound and theology is all over the board.
Vedic religion seems pretty dead. Gita period doctrine is all the rage, but nobody seems to actually practice it, and modern India is trying hard to eliminate caste altogether.

What's needed is just to abandon tradition and folklore and research the question scientifically. We need to find physiological markers for varna, and be able to identify the neurological markers on MRI and CT, just as we've done with blood types and sexual orientation.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, this whole area needs a lot of study. Different traditions abound and theology is all over the board.
Vedic religion seems pretty dead. Gita period doctrine is all the rage, but nobody seems to actually practice it, and modern India is trying hard to eliminate caste altogether.

What's needed is just to abandon tradition and folklore and research the question scientifically. We need to find physiological markers for varna, and be able to identify the neurological markers on MRI and CT, just as we've done with blood types and sexual orientation.
Wait a moment, this is scientism..the assumption that a technology can "fix" everything including who you are. Clearly meditative insight that uncovers your self is the method that is both Dharmic and the true way to identify who one is in this life.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wait a moment, this is scientism..the assumption that a technology can "fix" everything including who you are. Clearly meditative insight that uncovers your self is the method that is both Dharmic and the true way to identify who one is in this life.
Who's talking about "fixing?" I'm just talking about understanding, what comes of it is another topic.
We've had religion and meditative insight for millennia. They've produced little social, moral or technological progress. Maybe it's time to let the one methodology with a positive track record take a crack at it.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Who's talking about "fixing?" I'm just talking about understanding, what comes of it is another topic.
We've had religion and meditative insight for millennia. They've produced little social, moral or technological progress. Maybe it's time to let the one methodology with a positive track record take a crack at it.
This is claim that can be easily falsified by looking at historical evidence.
History of science and technology in the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You're sure about this?
Wow. Just wow.
Did India produce more enlightened individuals 2,000 years ago than it does today? Were the crime rates lower? Were people more prosperous and secure? Was there more liberty, equality and brotherhood?
Every time and culture has its enlightened individuals, and every culture has its technology, but technology didn't really take off till the industrial revolution, and we've yet to produce an enlightened city on a hill. Religion's been around a long time, too, but, if anything, it's been a brake on social progress and an excuse for war and repression.
This is claim that can be easily falsified by looking at historical evidence.
History of science and technology in the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia
Ancient peoples were clever, to be sure, but, till the industrial revolution, technology was regional and improved at a snail's pace. Often it was lost. As for science, the ancient's weren't really using the Scientific Method. They weren't publishing or soliciting peer review. They weren't methodical or analytical, working from observation to theorum to empirically tested theory. It was all haphazard.
Personally, I don't see a great deal of moral or religious progress in the past few thousand years, or a great deal of medical, technical or social progress till recently.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
This is unorthodox, feel-good Hinduism. You may change your jati, but you're not going to change your varna. Your varna is fixed at birth, like your blood type, species and dharma. Proper observance of dharma may lead to a different varna in your next body, but it's not going to change the human subdivision your born with.
Here comes the know-all pundit! Sure, 'varna' is fixed by Lord Krishna ('maya srishtam'), that cannot be changed, one will do according to one's 'varna', but you can be born in a wrong 'jati'. So, there will be a dalit professor of science. His 'dharma' will be according to his 'varna' and not 'jati'. He will research or teach. If the facilities of his advancement in his 'varna' are not available - a dalit born person of 'brahmin varna' may still do 'shudra' work, like Saint Ravi Das, mending shoes, but his 'varna' properties will be apparent. He will be wise and have a calm disposition. This mismatch too, will be according to his 'prarabhda karmas' (previous life karmas). His/her 'karmas' in the present life will get him/her to be born as a brahmin in the next reincarnation. Thanks for bearing with my rant. :D

"Cātur-varṇyaḿ mayā sṛṣṭaḿ, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ," BG 4.13
According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me.
Ancient peoples were clever, to be sure, but, till the industrial revolution, technology was regional and improved at a snail's pace.
Ancient people were happy with the technology that they had. They worked hard and were healthy. They did not need more technology. There was food for all and the guests. Generally, more clothes were not required in India and they had wooden or grass foot-wear. :D (another smiley)
 
Last edited:

Sw. Vandana Jyothi

Truth is One, many are the Names
Premium Member
Doggone, you guys. can't you please eliminate the sniping, slings and arrows directed at people offering their opinions before making yours? It's making us sound like a bunch of three year olds in a chaotic kindergarten. Criminy.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Doggone, you guys. can't you please eliminate the sniping, slings and arrows directed at people offering their opinions before making yours? It's making us sound like a bunch of three year olds in a chaotic kindergarten. Criminy.
But this is the Hinduism DIR. Isn't arguing endlessly about minute details mandatory? ;)
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
Jaya Nitaai!

I can give some insight from my school on this topic.

Traditionally varna was assigned by birth because the son of a farmer, would more than likely grow up and learn from his father and become, you guessed it...a farmer. Because such a society was divided into strict classes socially and culturally, your Karma usually determined where you were born (in what family) and hence varna (because your Karma determined your inclinations and qualities in this life). Most of the orthodox schools have very strict rules regarding birth based varna but they still abide by this birth principle. For example, I am considered by birth mleccha (barbarian), so no orthodox school of Vedanta would give me Gayatri Mantra or sacred thread due to my birth. You will find very little support from Dharma Shastra regarding rituals about varna changing (because they simply did not exist). Even the Goswamis (who were fairly liberal) remained fairly silent on this issue so as not to create a big disturbance in society.

It was not until the medieval period of Hinduism that the concept of moving from varna to varna manifested in practice. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur (a Gaudiya teacher and reformist) called this system the daiva varnashrama (Godly varna system) in order to differentiate it from the earlier system. Other schools also started this practice. The system allowed for westerners and also other varnas to accept the sacred and perform deity worship and recite Vedic mantras after accepting Brahmin intitiation from one's Guru (rather than one's father as is tradition). In this system, you had to show that you has specific qualities of that varna, and a superior (such as an advanced Vaishnav or Guru) would himself/herself give you Gayatri Diksha.

I think in our society today, apart from Brahmin diksha, you should not need any special ritual to transition varnas. Varna is pretty much fluid in this regard. As long as you have the qualities for it (i.e bravery and justice as a Kshatriya) you can enter those occupations (lawyer, soldier etc). Only exception would be where a special initiation rite is needed (i.e Brahmin).

Jiva Goswami interestingly gives an additional clause for changing varnas. In order to change varnas from the one at birth (it is possible according to him) you have to chant the Holy Name of Krsna. Because according to scripture, the Holy Name is able to destroy all the blemishes that are associated with birth, and grant one the eligibility for the varna of Brahmin to perform Vedic sacrifices. Bhagavatam reads:

yan-nāmadheya-śravaṇānukīrtanād
yat-prahvaṇād yat-smaraṇād api kvacit
śvādo 'pi sadyaḥ savanāya kalpate
kutaḥ punas te bhagavan nu darśanā


"To say nothing of the spiritual advancement of persons who see the Supreme Person face to face, even a person born in a family of dog-eaters immediately becomes eligible to perform Vedic sacrifices if he once utters the holy name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead or chants about Him, hears about His pastimes, offers Him obeisances or even remembers Him." (SB 3.33.6)


A person who chants the Holy Names becomes equal to a Brahmin born person (although not necessarily a full fledged Brahman, as that requires sacred thread and Mantras). According to Jiva Goswami, in the earlier society there was no rules or procedure by which someone from another varna could be given Brahmin initiation, even thought those persons were fully qualified to do so as they had chanted the Holy Name. Therefore, those people had to take another birth in order to be given that initiation. But later acharyas introduced a system where Brahmin initiation could be given to anyone provided they were qualified. Sridhara Maharaj explains this nicely:

"We say that by the power of Krsna-Nam, even the impurity attached to one's birth, race, creed, caste, or any other thing; can be done away with completely. It is not possible by yoga, jnana, or any other thing, but by Krsna-Nam, any sort of impurity can be obliterated, even prarabdha-karma. So, when all prarabdha-karma is purified, then one comes to the position of the highest birth, that of the Brahmin. Jiva Goswami says that at this point one comes to the status of a Brahmin boy.

But a Brahmin boy is not considered eligible to do the work of a Brahmin, until and unless he is given the sacred thread and mantram. When he is conferred with upanayana-samskara, then only is he eligible to worship Narayan, perform sacrifice, and carry out other duties which only the Brahmins can do. So by taking the Holy Name one is purified and attains the position of a Brahmin boy. But, Srila Jiva Goswami points out, that because we do not find any system to give the sacred thread to those not born in Brahmin families, then they will have to wait until their next birth.

The Goswami admits that whatever caste one may be, if he takes the Name of Krsna then he discards any defects of his birth, and attains the position of a Brahmin lad. Our Guru Maharaj, continuing this line of thought, said there is no harm in giving them the sacred thread, so the custom may be introduced. Our Guru Maharaj, continuing this line of thought, said there is no harm in giving them the sacred thread, so the custom may be introduced. Our Guru Maharaj came to introduce that
."

As for determining varna, I was reading a passage from Chaitanya Bhagavata (biography of Lord Chaitanya) and what they would do is when a child was born or a few months after, they would place few items in front of the child characteristic of each of the 4 varnas, and if the child was inclined by their varna, they would approach that item. For example, items placed in front of Lord Chaitanya was paddy, rice, Bhagavatam, gold and silver, and the Lord gravitated towards the Bhagavatam (scripture) showing He would be a great Brahmin scholar and devotee of the Krsna.



Ultimatley varna is meaningless, if we are not aware of our relationship with God. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu sings:

"nāhaṁ vipro na ca nara-patir nāpi vaiśyo na śūdro
nāhaṁ varṇī na ca gṛha-patir no vanastho yatir vā
kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramānanda-pūrnāmṛtābdher
gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ"

"" 'I am not a brāhmaṇa, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a vaiśya or a śūdra. Nor am I a brahmacārī, a householder, a vānaprastha or a sannyāsī. I identify Myself only as the servant of the servant of the servant of the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the maintainer of the gopīs. He is like an ocean of nectar, and He is the cause of universal transcendental bliss. He is always existing with brilliance.' "


You can see below my Guru Maharaj giving Diksha to a devotee couple. You can see the yagna at the end. Nice presentation of the rites surrounding Harinama and Brahmin diksha:

 
Last edited:
Top