How does one convert to Orthodox Judaism?

[ATAT]

After thoughts:

1. I am surprised that someone could call themselves an "Orthodox" Jew and suggest to a convert that the convert has anything negative at all. I'm not sure I would even call someone who did that 'Orthodox'. That'd be like claiming to be 'Orthodox', but drive to the Orthodox shul on Shabbos. That's not really being an Orthodox Jew. Contrast with someone who doesn't read the parsha twice with commentaries every week, that's 'Orthodox', but someone who violates a d'orrissa openly like that, that's not really 'Orthodox'. Or, just like the statement, 'I'm a vegitarian. Except for hamburgers, I love hamburgers.' That's not being a 'vegitarian'. I wouldn't call that person a 'vegitarian', even if they avoided all other meat, that's still not a 'vegitarian'.
You can't eat pork whenver you get the chance and legitimately call yourself, 'Orthodox'. You could say you're trying to be Orthodox, OK, I'm trying to be lots of things, but until I get into the pool, I'm not really swiming.



2. Anyone saying or doing anything to make a convert feel less than fully equal is on a par with someone simply eating unkosher food, only worse. I basically would have compassion for them because it would be like seeing someone eat food out of the toilet, I'm not offended by that, I just feel sorry for them, something in their history lead them to eating food out of the toilet, and just as any time someone offends you, the proper feelings to have are compassion, not offence or anger, compassion. Compassion works on many levels, perhaps the most important level is that it gets you past the problem. Feel sorry for the person who wrongs you / offends you, you get past it fast.

 

[Zardoz]

Can you provide a link / quote where it says,

"soul cut off from the Jewish people by sin and forced to return in this way"

This is what our Rebbi told us, and it's the only teaching of his I utterly rejected!

OK, I can't provide a link but I will quote a response from another forum (I am NOT the author) and you can see what I'm talking about:

B"H, I found the source. The Steipler mentions it in one of his letters. The Gra Can be found in Sefer Yona 4:3. Sefer Yona is about Gilgul. A gilgul means that the neshama comes back to this world to fix things in the previous life. The GRA explains that the neshama has one major mitzvah to fix in his return to the world. This is the one major aveira that he messed up last time. So he asks how can one know what purpose of his nehshama's gilgul is? And he gives two answers. One, is the aveira that he constantly is nichshal in. And the second way is if he has a strong desire for a particular aveira.

The Steipler points out that the same idea can be found from Rav Tzadok, in tzidkas Hatzadik #49 and #181. I looked up the sources.

You can see the implications? If all Gerim are Gilgul, and all Gilgul are here to 'fix' something?

Once again, I say I reject this view, this is an abuse of the Ger!

 

[ATAT]

Respectfully, I think you made a mistake. I make mistakes all the time, but I think there's a subtlety here:

'Gilgul' means 'wheel', round.

Not specificly about gerrim.

All souls go through this, all souls are 'gilgul'. Here's the original back and forth:

First part:

Hi Ykv,

Thank you for the beautiful dvar Torah and your insightful ha'aros.

It is not easy to continue falling and then getting back up. The y"h wants us to get down on ourselves and proclaims "what's the point in continuing?".

My dear friends, we must realize that this is in the most literal terms a life and death struggle.

The Villna Goan states ... how should a person know what their purpose and personal nissayon for coming to this world is? What is our most intimate and personal challenge that is the reason for our very creation?

The Villna Goan answers ... it is that which is most difficult for us and that which challenges us most frequently.

For many of us here ... battling and ultimately defeating this y"h may be the reason why we were brought down to this world in the first place.

Listen to Ykv and the powerful message he has shared with us ...

If you fall, get back up .... ki l'cach notzarta

Later reply:

Quote from: shomer on April 21, 2009, 05:33:07 AM

The Villna Goan states ... how should a person know what their purpose and personal nissayon for coming to this world is? What is our most intimate and personal challenge that is the reason for our very creation?

The Villna Goan answers ... it is that which is most difficult for us and that which challenges us most frequently.

For many of us here ... battling and ultimately defeating this y"h may be the reason why we were brought down to this world in the first place.

​

Shomer,

B"H, I found the source. The Steipler mentions it in one of his letters. The Gra Can be found in Sefer Yona 4:3. Sefer Yona is about Gilgul. A gilgul means that the neshama comes back to this world to fix things in the previous life. The GRA explains that the neshama has one major mitzvah to fix in his return to the world. This is the one major aveira that he messed up last time. So he asks how can one know what purpose of his nehshama's gilgul is? And he gives two answers. One, is the aveira that he constantly is nichshal in. And the second way is if he has a strong desire for a particular aveira.

The Steipler points out that the same idea can be found from Rav Tzadok, in tzidkas Hatzadik #49 and #181. I looked up the sources.

Once again, thanks for bringing this to our attention.

So, this post was NOT TALKING ABOUT GERRIM. It's talking about all souls. 'nissoyon' means pains, trials, etc

The question was, why does anyone go through gilgul? [the idea is that everyone is re-born, over and over again]

Because we all [not just gerrim] have something to fix.

Notice he says, 'for many of us here'

y'h' = yetzer hara, evil inclination, we all have that. In fact, I *only* have the evil inclination.

I found another post on the source, tzidkus hatzadek:

bold added by me:

I have such a list in my notebook. Now that you asked, I will try to get to work and post it.


Quote from: Nishmas on September 17, 2009, 11:23:57 PM

I once heard the following as well: "Reb Tzadok HaCohen (i.e. Tzidkas Hatzadik) writes that if a person sees that he is having an especially difficult time in controlling a certain trait or refraining from a certain kind of action, he should not view this as a sign of weakness on his part. Rather, he should view it as an indication from Heaven that it is precisely in this area that he has the greatest potential for growth. The difficulties he is experiencing are a means for him to apply greater effort in overcoming the challenge, and developing that trait in which he, in fact, has the greatest potential to grow."
​

Yes, this can be found in #49 and #181. This yesod changed my life. I live by this yesod. In fact, to date, I consider shemras eynayim to be my biggest accomplishments. I went from a terrible p**n addict (together with worse stuff) to aversions to any sort of sight. I try with all my might to not even get a first glance of anything untzeniyus. I am careful with the way I walk (head down). And I can tell you that this did not come naturally. I used to be a hardcore addict with no shame. When you learn not to settle for "nebach, that's who I am" and realize that davka in this area you can rise to the top, then davka in this area you can rise. I daven everyday for Hashem to protect me from pritzus. The trick is to take one step at a time, and know that there is another step ahead for you to climb.

Keep climbing! Keep growing.

Kesiva vechisma tova,

Once again, nothing about gerrim. Let me know if you need any words translated. I assure you that they talk nothing about converts. Of course, converts have souls, so, as part of the group, the above applies to everyone.

As for your rabbi, I'm sure you misunderstood him. Either you were sensitive about the subject and jumped to a conclusion that he was talking about gerrim, or you just misheard him, or, perhaps he misspoke.

I went to a shiur today and corrected the maggid shiur half a dozen times, and each time he just said the opposite of what he meant. Each time he said the opposite word, I corrected him, he nodded I was right.

WHEN I WROTE TO MY WIFE TO BE, I WROTE AT THE END OF THE LETTER, "I enjoy writing to you."

The only way to get in touch with here was by mail. (long long time ago)

I happened to have kept a copy of my letter to her, she was the one, I didn't want to take any chances.

I happened to have some time to kill, so I re-read my wonderful writing, ah, I do so impress myself.

With the actual letter outside waiting for the letter carrier, I calmly read through my letter to her, the copy.

At the bottom, it said, it really said, "I do not enjoy writing to you."

My eyes nearly popped out of my skull!

I bolted out of my chair, ran for the door, if she got that letter, she might never read another letter of mine!

I am very thankful to G-d that the letter was still in the box, I took it, shredded it, printed out a corrected copy, and breathed a sigh of relief.

I'm sure he could not have meant that gerrim have some sort of defective souls. That is not the sentiment of the Jewish people. If there's any language like that anywhere, let me know, it probably doesn't mean what you think it means.

I believe I have even heard the argument completely in reverse: The convert is a new soul that, while present at Sinai to get the commandments, did *not* have to be re-born life after life until today, unlike all the other souls which had to work on something all this time.

Never have I any memory of reading anything to the negative about converts, their souls, etc.

 

[Zardoz]

Respectfully, I think you made a mistake. I make mistakes all the time, but I think there's a subtlety here:

'Gilgul' means 'wheel', round.

Not specificly about gerrim.

All souls go through this, all souls are 'gilgul'

,,,


So, this post was NOT TALKING ABOUT GERRIM. It's talking about all souls. 'nissoyon' means pains, trials, etc.

I know very well that Gilgul means wheel and in this context it symbolizes a circle or cycle of the Neshama, and I know the articles were not addressing the Ger in particular,

I will explain further, but I will state yet again that the following view is NOT my opinion in fact I've always rejected it, but I think it's important to expose this flawed opinion and openly rebuke it despite the fact it's my own people who hold it

As the posts support, the concept of Gilgul Neshama center on the correction of a soul's flaws by a return of that soul to the world to work out that issue;

However, not all issues are equal, there are different levels of avera:
There is the Cheit (unintentional sin) and Avon (provoked by lust, ex: adultery);
Then there is Pesha' or rebellion against Torah, a deliberate sin done in defiance;

Some of these latter forms of avera have consequences attached to them that include being cut off from the Jewish People, a punishment known as Kareit which translates as 'cutting off', and it applies not only to this life but the world to come as well;

However, even such a punishment has a path for teshuava, such a soul can Gilgul into a non-Jew and the path is open for that non-Jew to return to the Jewish People through conversion;

Now, I do believe that this is possible, but it's a vast difference to think that an occasional Ger might possibly be working off Kareit ,,, Vs to think that every Ger is!!

That's the point I was trying to get across, if one thinks that all Gerim are that kind of Gilgul, the chances for a positive view of a Ger is practically impossible;

Such a view is a tragedy, it's a Chillul HaShem, IMHO

 

[ATAT]

Now, I do believe that this is possible, but it's a vast difference to think that an occasional Ger might possibly be working off Kareit ,,, Vs to think that every Ger is!!'

I've been to half a dozen yeshivas, met thousands of Jews from around the world, I've never once heard anyone say that gerrim are souls working off Karais.

I hear the opposite in assertion and sentiment.

Never once what you suggest.

Maybe it's my sparkling personality, but I must point out that the link you provided had nothing to do with gerrim.

In fact, it argues, indirectly, that gerrim are the ones who don't have this problem.

I don't put much stock in descriptions of heaven, because Judaism is very chary on the subject, and opinions vary wildly, from Rambam to Kabbalah.

But I've never heard that sentiment that gerrim are somehow different in that they have to work off korais, I've never read that sentiment, and I always perk up and listen when the topic of conversions comes up.

Even if there is a lone rabbi saying it somewhere, that's so unusual as to not meet the standard. We don't poskin like a ****as hayachid.

There's a rabbi in the Talmud who says there will be no moshgiac.

Well, I'm here to tell you there's a moshgiach, I see the blood stains on his hands, his name is 'Joshua', and I see him at least once a week.

OK, his name isn't really 'Joshua', but, you gotta go with it to make it work.

Joking aside, if one thinks that all Gerim are that kind of gilgul then he's simply wrong.

if that's such a common position, give me a link to it in blogs or something, let me see how everyone agrees with the idea.

I think the conclusion is completely wrong, but I grant you there may be one or two out there who are out of step, just like there are still some white racists in the US; but it sure isn't the norm, it's not the law, and I've never heard it, not once, and even if it were true, throwing that in the face of a convert would be forbidden, it's forbidden to mention a converts past, surely this would be on that level, even if it were true. Goodness, the bible says Avraham came from idol worshippers.

The links you provided says that Jews, all Jews with a soul, are gilgul neshomas, that's why they don't go to heaven, they have to come back and work off something.

Why do we keep getting reborn? Because of the need to work off some problem, according to your links.

The only thing I ever hear is that the ger neshoma was at Sinai and is making it's first appearnance. Otherwise, why bother to convert, it's already Jewish, m'chuyav in the mitzvas. Right?

How do you stop being obligated in the mitzvas?

If it's true that there's a community that drives on shabbos or eats trefe or has services without following halacha, well, OK, there are lots of those. I don't call them 'Orthodox' because they are in open violation of the Torah. Or they are ignorant and just need to be corrected. But it's not the norm, I've been to yeshivas around the world and never hear this idea that gerrim are Jewish souls with a problem. Go up to a regular shomer mitzvah Jew, I doubt they've ever heard of this. If there is someone out there thinking like this, even if there was a source, then that's their problem, because that's not the truth. That'd be like someone going around thinking women are inferior because they found a line some place that could be understood that way. Let them trot that out at the Shabbos table and see how that works.

Respectfully submitted.

 

[Zardoz]

I've been to half a dozen yeshivas, met thousands of Jews from around the world, I've never once heard anyone say that gerrim are souls working off Karais.

Ashkenazi or Sephardi? I would have to agree with you if you visited Ashkenazi yeshivas, as far as I can tell, they don't share this opinion

But I've never heard that sentiment that gerrim are somehow different in that they have to work off korais, I've never read that sentiment, and I always perk up and listen when the topic of conversions comes up.

Then you are fortunate, frankly I could hardly believe my ears first time I heard my Rebbi comment on this, because my Rebbi was like a Tzadik in my eyes and kind hearted in every other way, I couldn't fathom his view;
I say this not to insult his memory, but to point out this view was even held by someone close to me whom I would have thought would know better, and I have heard others echo this view in less charitable ways that I know it was not just something he invented or misinterpreted

if that's such a common position, give me a link to it in blogs or something, let me see how everyone agrees with the idea.

You're right, I should have inserted the qualifier that I was talking about Sephardic communities only, and as I already pointed out there are some Sephardic communities that refuse to allow any conversions, period, and those are documented fact

We only know the communities we are a part of, nu? I love my Sephardic heritage and feel a deep connection to my minhag, but our handling of converts is one thing I am not proud of, and feel many of our communities are completely in the wrong in this regard and need to correct the policy of conversion and stop just fostering off proselytes to the Ashkenazim

I have no wish to sweep it under the rug or pretend it isn't out there, I will report it and rebuke it for all our sakes, because I feel it's wrong and harms us all

 

[ATAT]

Ah, Sephardim.

I'm completely ignorant on their perspective.

Didn't think of that.

 

[dantech]

Ashkenazi or Sephardi? I would have to agree with you if you visited Ashkenazi yeshivas, as far as I can tell, they don't share this opinion

Then you are fortunate, frankly I could hardly believe my ears first time I heard my Rebbi comment on this, because my Rebbi was like a Tzadik in my eyes and kind hearted in every other way, I couldn't fathom his view;
I say this not to insult his memory, but to point out this view was even held by someone close to me whom I would have thought would know better, and I have heard others echo this view in less charitable ways that I know it was not just something he invented or misinterpreted

You're right, I should have inserted the qualifier that I was talking about Sephardic communities only, and as I already pointed out there are some Sephardic communities that refuse to allow any conversions, period, and those are documented fact

We only know the communities we are a part of, nu? I love my Sephardic heritage and feel a deep connection to my minhag, but our handling of converts is one thing I am not proud of, and feel many of our communities are completely in the wrong in this regard and need to correct the policy of conversion and stop just fostering off proselytes to the Ashkenazim

I have no wish to sweep it under the rug or pretend it isn't out there, I will report it and rebuke it for all our sakes, because I feel it's wrong and harms us all

I have heard of Ashkenazim as well as Sepharadim who absolutely do not accept converts. I have even met people from either community and talked about this subject. They feel that by accepting conversion, it gives the right to their children to go look elsewhere for their future spouse...

Now, I regularly attend a Sepharadic Minyan, and can tell you with a lot of confidence that we do have a conversion program. There is actually one man who is in the process as we speak. It's been about 6 months. He takes classes with our Rabbi and learns Torah with the rest of us. I think after about a year, he will be called a Jew.

The sect you speak of is very varied across the world and has nothing to do with Sepharadim in general. It is just a decision that Rabbis of different communities take for their communities.

I have even met a man who is successfully converted. He used to be the janitor in a synagogue in New Jersey. After many years of serving the community he decided to convert. His local Rabbi told him that they do not accept converts. After having tried 3 times, the Rabbi said that if he is really truthful in his conversion, he will contact a Rabbi from another community who accepts converts. This was our Rabbi. That man was sent to live in our community for 2 years until he was successfully converted and now has gone back to live in his old community as a Jew, and is accepted by everyone.

It's not so much that they don't accept Converts. It's more that they do not accept conversions.

PS: I just noticed this is a 2 year old thread.