How Does One Know God's Thoughts?

[The Voice of Reason]

As a Rationalist, I just have to ask, how does one know what God thinks, knows, wants, or desires? When you respond, please do not use statements such as "The Bible says...". This begs the question, since it assumes the premise that the Bible is the word of God (inspired or otherwise).

Thanks

 

[dan]

Well, as a rationalist you must be very familiar with the process of accepting assunmption and inference, since your entire philosophy is built upon those two principles; but I'll see what I can do. Pray, read the scriptures and do your very, very (very) best to live ALL of the precepts you find in there and you will know the mind of God (albeit transitory - you must continue this process throughout your life in order to continue the connection). I don't say this because the Bible says it, I say it because I've done it and it works. You'll be hard pressed to find a more reliable substantiation than that in your brnach of philosophy. Try it, it works; but not for skeptics and those who just like to patronize other people. God can see through that.

 

[Clear]

Voice of Reason asks:

"As a Rationalist, I just have to ask, how does one know what God thinks, knows, wants, or desires" When you respond, please do not use statements such as "The Bible says...". This begs the question, since it assumes the premise that the Bible is the word of God (inspired or otherwise). - voice of reason

Your question was so profound that I would have expected a LOT of interest and comments from many religious camps. I believe that the very best way to know what God thinks, to know what God knows and to know what God desires for himself and for us is through direct communication with God Himself.

Having said this, I believe that there are principles underlying what and how God communicates to individuals. For example, such principles seem to include deep involvement of our intellect and our will and our commitment (to accomplish the purposes for which God engages in communication in the first place). Whether religious or agnostic, those who do not exercise intellect, will and commitment do not seem to receive communication from God in the same measure as those who invest these energies.


The Primary and Terrible Questions:

There are a few questions that are more important than others. Perhaps because they take us through decisional doors that change everything that follows. For example, the question my agnostic friends seem most interested to hear God answer is simply the primary and profound question : Do you exist? A confirming revelation from God to an individual changes the life that follows.

People believe in God for many reasons. However, I believe that individuals who have received direct revelation from God confirming this question have the best and most "sure" reason to believe in his existence.


All other Questions:

All questions regarding God’s Character; his purposes; and his plans may be answered by direct revelation but I do not think direct revelation is most efficient way to answer all of them, nor does it seem consistent with God’s purposes. It feels as though he confirms Primary principles by revelation (if we seek for this) and then allows men take the true principles as far as they can for themselves. I believe that if they use what they are given, he will give them more (if they seek for more).

Clear (ei-neu-tz)

 

[3.14]

the mind sees a hidden patroon in the world, to compleet the patroon you need to live a certain way, and the bible hapens to come closest to the lifestyle so your mind wil link those 2 and apply reverse logic to what happens

 

[Sunstone]

As a Rationalist, I just have to ask, how does one know what God thinks, knows, wants, or desires? When you respond, please do not use statements such as "The Bible says...". This begs the question, since it assumes the premise that the Bible is the word of God (inspired or otherwise).

Thanks

God always wants what I want. Just now, for instance, God wanted me to put chocolate in my coffee. So I did.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I don't think anyone knows what God is thinking and if they say they do, watch out.

 

[Dunemeister]

Which god do you have in mind?

 

[Clear]

Jeremy

”I don't think anyone knows what God is thinking and if they say they do, watch out.” - Jeremy

It feels strange to hear a christian claim that they cannot know the will of God since the Gift of the Holy Spirit (whose purpose it is to be a revelator) was such an integral part of the Christian claim..

If you do not have any faith that you or other individuals can know what God wills, then are you admitting that you do not know basic moral principles by which God expects men to live?

For example: Do you know how God feels regarding rape and murder of a little child?

Do you not know whether God feels Rape and Murder are Good; or do you not know if God feels rape and murder are wrong; or do you not know whether he is apathetical regarding whether people rape and murder; or are you saying your personal christianty simply doesn’t know anything about how God feels about rape and murder?

I am intrigued.

Clear

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Jeremy

It feels strange to hear a christian claim that they cannot know the will of God since the Gift of the Holy Spirit (whose purpose it is to be a revelator) was such an integral part of the Christian claim..

If you do not have any faith that you or other individuals can know what God wills, then are you admitting that you do not know basic moral principles by which God expects men to live?

For example: Do you know how God feels regarding rape and murder of a little child?

Do you not know whether God feels Rape and Murder are Good; or do you not know if God feels rape and murder are wrong; or do you not know whether he is apathetical regarding whether people rape and murder; or are you saying your personal christianty simply doesn’t know anything about how God feels about rape and murder?

I am intrigued.

Clear

I think you miss read what I posted.

I don't think anyone knows what God is thinking and if they say they do, watch out.

To say you know what God is thinking about would mean that you know what God is currently thinking about, which is impossible.

Of course, God has given us some understanding of His position concerning the do's and don'ts. Does this clarify your concerns?

 

[Rolling_Stone]

As a Rationalist, I just have to ask, how does one know what God thinks, knows, wants, or desires? When you respond, please do not use statements such as "The Bible says...". This begs the question, since it assumes the premise that the Bible is the word of God (inspired or otherwise).

Thanks

Eternity and infinity cannote a level of reality space-time creatures cannot comprehend, but is it not true that the motion of the invisible may sometimes be discerned by observing its effects on the visible? And what is more visible than the effects if the invisible within ourselves?

 

[Draka]

As a Rationalist, I just have to ask, how does one know what God thinks, knows, wants, or desires? When you respond, please do not use statements such as "The Bible says...". This begs the question, since it assumes the premise that the Bible is the word of God (inspired or otherwise).

Thanks

What They think is not for us to know. What They know is all. What They want for me to know of Their wants and desires for me They will tell me.

 

[Clear]

Jeremy Mason wrote:

"To say you know what God is thinking about would mean that you know what God is currently thinking about, which is impossible." - jeremy mason

Perhaps I did misunderstand your single sentence Jeremy. Certainly you did not offer clarification in your post. If I did misread you, I feel you misread the intent and logic of the original question.

"Voice of Reasons" original question was:

"As a Rationalist, I just have to ask, how does one know what God thinks, knows, wants, or desires? - voice of reason "

I do not believe "Voice" was referring to what God was thinking "this very second", but I believe his question was of greater usage and import than to have a "snapshot" of a moment in time. I believe the original question did not concern what God "day dreams" about, but rather I believe "voice of reason’s" original question concerned eternal principles underlying what God is doing with his creation and why he is doing it.

It was in THIS context that I was speaking when I commented:

"I believe that the very best way to know what God thinks, to know what God knows and to know what God desires for himself and for us is through direct communication with God Himself.."....
"All questions regarding God’s Character; his purposes; and his plans may be answered by direct revelation but I do not think direct revelation is most efficient way to answer all of them, nor does it seem consistent with God’s purposes. It feels as though he confirms Primary principles by revelation (if we seek for this) and then allows men take the true principles as far as they can for themselves. I believe that if they use what they are given, he will give them more (if they seek for more)". - Clear

The Christian Claim (and gift from God) is the promise of the Holy Spirit for those who possess the faith and diligence to obtain the gift and listen. One of the functions of the Holy Spirit is as a revelator; a teacher; a guide who will guide us in our journeys from possessors of small amounts of truth to possessors of greater amounts of profound truths. It is also the Holy Spirit who confirms the truths during this lifelong quest to separate truth from error.

It is through mechanisms such as these that we are allowed to know what God knows (i.e. principles of truth), why he inaugurated this mortal existence, the purposes underlying man’s existence and what we as individuals are to accomplish during mortality; what it is that God ultimately desires to accomplish with the spirits of men; etc. I do not believe that individuals who will not exercise this gift are given to understand such things with the greater clarity afforded those who do use this gift. That is, I think Chrysostom was correct that the great and deep and profound principles of truth cannot BE best understood independently of the Spirit of God (whose purpose it is to reveal these principles and to make them understandable to men).

Clear (tz v v)

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Jeremy Mason wrote:
Perhaps I did misunderstand your single sentence Jeremy. Certainly you did not offer clarification in your post. If I did misread you, I feel you misread the intent and logic of the original question.

"Voice of Reasons" original question was:
I do not believe "Voice" was referring to what God was thinking "this very second", but I believe his question was of greater usage and import than to have a "snapshot" of a moment in time. I believe the original question did not concern what God "day dreams" about, but rather I believe "voice of reason’s" original question concerned eternal principles underlying what God is doing with his creation and why he is doing it.

It was in THIS context that I was speaking when I commented:

The Christian Claim (and gift from God) is the promise of the Holy Spirit for those who possess the faith and diligence to obtain the gift and listen. One of the functions of the Holy Spirit is as a revelator; a teacher; a guide who will guide us in our journeys from possessors of small amounts of truth to possessors of greater amounts of profound truths. It is also the Holy Spirit who confirms the truths during this lifelong quest to separate truth from error.

It is through mechanisms such as these that we are allowed to know what God knows (i.e. principles of truth), why he inaugurated this mortal existence, the purposes underlying man’s existence and what we as individuals are to accomplish during mortality; what it is that God ultimately desires to accomplish with the spirits of men; etc. I do not believe that individuals who will not exercise this gift are given to understand such things with the greater clarity affored those who do use this gift. That is, I think Chrysostom was correct that the great and deep and profound principles of truth cannot BE understood independent of the Spirit of God (whose purpose it is to reveal these principles and to make them understandable to men).

Clear (tz v v)

It's funny you should say that because VoR frubaled me and said,
"Excellent. So far, only you and Sunstone have understood the true nature of the original question."

 

[Clear]

Jeremy

Voice of reasons original question was:

how does one know what God thinks, knows, wants, or desires? When you respond, please do not use statements such as "The Bible says...". This begs the question, since it assumes the premise that the Bible is the word of God (inspired or otherwise).

Clear said

"I do not believe "Voice" was referring to what God was thinking "this very second", but I believe his question was of greater usage and import than to have a "snapshot" of a moment in time.

Jeremy Mason replied

"It's funny you should say that because VoR frubaled me and said,‘Excellent. So far, only you and Sunstone have understood the true nature of the original question.’

Jeremy, If you understood it correctly and I did not, then I honestly congratulate you. I’m sorry that the question was written so that only two people could understand it correctly. You deserve the Frubals you received Jeremy.

I admit that I did NOT understand his original question as you explained it and must admit that I also would not have been interested in a discussion in voices question as you explain it (which may explain why "voice of reason" received so little response initially... - it's a 4 year old post and had a single response...) I am not particularly interested in what God thinks "at this very moment", but rather I am interested in what God is thinking and was thinking and will think in terms of the processes of creation and mortality.

I had guessed that his question was meant to discuss how one can communicate with God?; how one can find out truth from error?; What God’s purposes were in creating this world and sending people through the process of mortality?; what is God’s relationship to man? I admit some disappointment that the original question was not deeper and more meaningful since, even if superficial questions receive correct answers, still they leave individuals spiritually anemic and grant us no deep understanding of any profound principles.


I believe God is willing to reveal himself to men now, just as he has in all prior ages. Just as redemption itself is accomplished by covenants between God and men, gaining knowledge of God; his character and his purposes are accomplished in the same manner. I believe that the "rules" upon which such knowledge is given are consistent for all men (as are the reasons as to why such knowledge is difficult for some men to obtain).


The apostle Peter, explained to Clement that the "will and counsel of God has ... been concealed from men" for reasons such as "bad instruction, wicked associations, evil habits, unprofitable conversation, and unrighteous presumptions." (Recognitions)

Peter explains

"On account of all these, I say, first error, then contempt, then infidelity and malice, covetousness also, and vain boasting, and other such like evils, have filled the whole house of this world, like some enormous smoke, and preventing those who dwell in it from seeing its Founder aright, and from perceiving what things are pleasing to Him.

What, then, is fitting for those who are within, excepting with a cry brought forth from their inmost hearts to invoke His aid, who alone is not shut up in the smoke-filled house, that He would approach and open the door of the house, so that the smoke may be dissipated which is within, and the light of the sun which shines without may be admitted". (Recognitions)


If Peter is correct that "a cry brought forth from their inmost hearts" will cause God to "approach and open the door" of the house then the important question is to consider what makes up such a cry. The profound answer alleviates much of men’s "struggles for good data"; and causes God to "approach" us and bring us out of such confusion and to give us the very knowledge we so badly need.

As I said, I have no interest in the type of question you answered (since I think it falls into the category of "unprofitable conversation" the apostle Peter spoke of), I will however, watch for interest in the question of what God thinks and wants and knows as regards to principles that underlie his purposes and our lives.

Clear . . (tz-si-vi)

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Jeremy

Voice of reasons original question was:
Clear said
Jeremy Mason replied


Jeremy, If you understood it correctly and I did not, then I honestly congratulate you. I’m sorry that the question was written so that only two people could understand it correctly. You deserve the Frubals you received Jeremy.

I admit that I did NOT understand his original question as you explained it and must admit that I also would not have been interested in a discussion in voices question as you explain it (which may explain why "voice of reason" received so little response initially... - it's a 4 year old post and had a single response...) I am not particularly interested in what God thinks "at this very moment", but rather I am interested in what God is thinking and was thinking and will think in terms of the processes of creation and mortality.

I had guessed that his question was meant to discuss how one can communicate with God?; how one can find out truth from error?; What God’s purposes were in creating this world and sending people through the process of mortality?; what is God’s relationship to man? I admit some disappointment that the original question was not deeper and more meaningful since, even if superficial questions receive correct answers, still they leave individuals spiritually anemic and grant us no deep understanding of any profound principles.


I believe God is willing to reveal himself to men now, just as he has in all prior ages. Just as redemption itself is accomplished by covenants between God and men, gaining knowledge of God; his character and his purposes are accomplished in the same manner. I believe that the "rules" upon which such knowledge is given are consistent for all men (as are the reasons as to why such knowledge is difficult for some men to obtain).


The apostle Peter, explained to Clement that the "will and counsel of God has ... been concealed from men" for reasons such as "bad instruction, wicked associations, evil habits, unprofitable conversation, and unrighteous presumptions." (Recognitions)

Peter explains

"On account of all these, I say, first error, then contempt, then infidelity and malice, covetousness also, and vain boasting, and other such like evils, have filled the whole house of this world, like some enormous smoke, and preventing those who dwell in it from seeing its Founder aright, and from perceiving what things are pleasing to Him.

What, then, is fitting for those who are within, excepting with a cry brought forth from their inmost hearts to invoke His aid, who alone is not shut up in the smoke-filled house, that He would approach and open the door of the house, so that the smoke may be dissipated which is within, and the light of the sun which shines without may be admitted". (Recognitions)


If Peter is correct that "a cry brought forth from their inmost hearts" will cause God to "approach and open the door" of the house then the important question is to consider what makes up such a cry. The profound answer alleviates much of men’s "struggles for good data"; and causes God to "approach" us and bring us out of such confusion and to give us the very knowledge we so badly need.

As I said, I have no interest in the type of question you answered (since I think it falls into the category of "unprofitable conversation" the apostle Peter spoke of), I will however, watch for interest in the question of what God thinks and wants and knows as regards to principles that underlie his purposes and our lives.

Clear . . (tz-si-vi)

I'm not arguing with you and wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying. My point was about what God currently thinks, nothing more.

 

[ax0547]

Well i agree with rolling stone. Also in itself no one can know what god is thinking as a whole but only relative to one's perspective This requires experience. Another thing people say where is God and ask for proof -GOD is to be realized with expereince and understanding not prooved or any benifit in after life and so on!

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Which god do you have in mind?

Your choice.

The question remains the same. How can a mortal know the mind of a supernatural being?

As with the original post, I base the question outside of any religious text (which, when cited, simply begs the question).

 

[The Voice of Reason]

For Jeremy and Clear -

The original question can be taken either way (in terms of what God is currently thinking, or what God has in mind for His creation).

I am asking how a mortal can know the mind of a supernatural being.

 

[scottb]

Let me answer it from a Deist perspective. In the classic Deist article, the Preamble to the Declaration Independence, God is referred to as "Nature's God" because in Deism, God is viewed as the creator of nature. If you want to know what God is thinking, look at Nature. What is true? What is the design of the universe? What is happening in it? The answers to those questions tell us what God wants. That is what God is thinking.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

When I started the thread (4 years ago), I was actually thinking along the lines of the Terry Schiavo case.

How can a mortal being tell us that they know the mind of God - and what God would have us do in that situation?

Again, keep in mind that I am eliminating the Bible (or any other religious text) from the question.

How can one mortal presume to speak for God, and tell another mortal that he knows the mind of a supernatural being?