How does religion hold up when faced with these questions?

[Ingledsva]

...
'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

He is quoting Deuteronomy 6:5 of the Torah. So this is an ancient teaching and it is still a focus in the Baha'i Writings where Abdul-Baha describes four kinds of love... The love of the Creator for humanity..the created; The love of the created (humanity) for the Creator; The love of man for man; The love of God for God so in my view this more than "worship" ... Love can only exist from a choice ... a freedom to love, otherwise it is mere obedience or mechanical response as in a robotic response.

The Bible says God murdered the innocent for the crimes of others.

How exactly does this jive with love?

*

 

[LuisDantas]

You always say that, but the Dharmic religions have their own glaring issues, many of which are the same or similar as the shortcomings of the Abrahamic religions.

There are issues, certainly. But they are fairly different, to the point that it is a bit odd to call both Abrahamism and other beliefs by a catch-all term.

 

[Owneh]

And who are you to judge what they do and do not deserve? And are you not capable of helping them? Are we not all capable of helping them?

Is it really God letting them die or is it us? Do you blame God so that no one will blame you?

No, you're totally got me there.

I'm to blame for bone cancer.

When it's a terminal illness no, they cannot be helped.Not to mention - I shouldn't have to help them. For example, I could send food, go out of my way and save all my life to build something in Africa which will help them, taking up my full lifetime of savings ect, or god could just will it and it would happen. God could have wished for no starvation, no cancer in children, and we'd have the same experiences but without some of the more devastating and wasteful aspects of life. Your logic is incredibly flawed on SO many levels.

Humanity is not to blame for bone marrow cancer in children - if you say otherwise then I guess I simply can't argue or even attempt to reason with you.

I don't understand how the flaws in your logic can be so glaringly obvious, yet you somehow are completely blind to them.

These are not unheard of questions are come from a very small, hateful place. Like Allah says in the Quran, "Which one of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?" People like Fry deny them all.

Can he not be grateful for having a working body, to live a well off life, to not have to beg and scratch for money. To be healthy in a general sense. If he is hypothetically believing in God for this argument, then surely he can not deny these bounties, similar things have been given to billions of people world wide.

We live in a world where the evil, the bad, the unjust is consistently highlighted but how about the every day miracles? I'm a medical student and I have seen a miracle almost every day spent in hospital. People walking who doctors said would never be able to, people recovering from infections they shouldn't have been able to, people surviving cancers doctors only gave 6 months too and so on and so forth.

Allah has blessed so many. Yes there are cases of immense tragedies around the world, natural disasters among them but that is how Allah has created nature. Tectonic plates move, the winds pick up, rain causes floods. That's nature. And even then, the vast majority of the human population is saved from teh worst of it.

Children die, again, another tragedy but Allah sends them straight to paradise. Eternal life, no pain, no disability, no envy, hunger, jealousy. Parents of such children will follow them into paradise too. A blessing through pain and hardship.

On top of all that, Allah has never once stated that this life is perfect. It's not meant to be. It's a struggle. Do we hate and curse and admonish our parents for making us do our homework so that we can have a successful life in the future? Do we hate them for not giving us what we want all the time? Wek now it is all for the better.

It always strikes me that the most well of seem to complain the most.

You're saying Fry is not grateful for living in a world which sees so much natural god-created injustice and evil. The most well of seem to complain the most because they are the most educated, they see through the veil of religion and god to see who he really is - if he exists, as a monster, an atrocity.

Would you rather Fry be happy for everything that he personally has and ignore the suffering of everyone else just because he is "well off"?

An analogy I'd make is two siblings have the same father, and live with him, however the father gives the best food, clothes, and affection to one child whilst starving and abusing the other. Should the child who is favoured be happy because he is well off and grateful to his father, or should he see him for the monster the father is REGARDLESS of how he has treat him personally.

 

[Thana]

No, you're totally got me there.

I'm to blame for bone cancer.

When it's a terminal illness no, they cannot be helped.Not to mention - I shouldn't have to help them. For example, I could send food, go out of my way and save all my life to build something in Africa which will help them, taking up my full lifetime of savings ect, or god could just will it and it would happen. God could have wished for no starvation, no cancer in children, and we'd have the same experiences but without some of the more devastating and wasteful aspects of life. Your logic is incredibly flawed on SO many levels.

Humanity is not to blame for bone marrow cancer in children - if you say otherwise then I guess I simply can't argue or even attempt to reason with you.

I don't understand how the flaws in your logic can be so glaringly obvious, yet you somehow are completely blind to them.

I never meant bone cancer, obviously. But you kept bringing up starvation and poverty, which is what I was obviously referring to. And why should God fix problems He did not cause? Why should He cure cancer when these diseases are the only things keeping our population in check. Overpopulation is a serious issue that is affecting our world right now.

And God gave the world us, and He blessed us with riches and gave us free will and we choose to be greedy. They starve because of us, not because of God.

And I'd get off my high horse if I were you.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Great post Tomorrows Child. And good for you pursuing medicine.

Thanks David!

And cursed all the rest.

In what way? And who is cursed exactly?

 

[McBell]

I literally just backed up what I said with proof, proof and more proof. How can you even BEGIN to contemplate that it's me saying that alone? Honestly, read the rest of the post you moron. So if anyone gives an opinion, then backs it up with proof you're going to sit down and waste away? I feel sorry for your ignorance and wasted life.

No, you didn't.
You presented some evidence as to why you believe it, but you have not presented proof.

That you do not understand that fact is your problem, not mine.

 

[viole]

Why should He cure cancer when these diseases are the only things keeping our population in check. Overpopulation is a serious issue that is affecting our world right now.

What? You make me miss the "God operates in mysterious ways" defense.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Milton Platt]

What do you say to this?

[video=youtube;-suvkwNYSQo]

[/video]

If god/Allah/whatever is real, then we shouldn't be worshipping them, but despise them. Honestly, if you believe in god then I don't know why you'd worship them. What kind of ****ed up being would create a race and then ask them to say thanks 6 times a day, or create a world which babies die the day they are born? This world isn't evil because of humanity, although we do play a part, but the evils of humanity aren't a TOUCH on the evils of the one(s) who created this world.

If you are deeply religious, I want you to watch the video, tell me what you think or even just question it yourself.

Also, ask yourself this. If you're muslim, would you be a muslim if both of your parents were devout christians? Or the other way around? Substitute both religions to whatever, but if you deeply believe in a religion because of your parents or the people around you, why are you right in this instance but not right in the one(s) in which your influences are from a different religion?

isn't it much simpler to wait until someone can actually prove there is a deity to worship and then we can decide if it is worth our time to do so.

 

[McBell]

isn't it much simpler to wait until someone can actually prove there is a deity to worship and then we can decide if it is worth our time to do so.

It would be if there weren't literally millions of people killing people who do not believe in the same god they do....

 

[Shad]

Can he not be grateful for having a working body, to live a well off life, to not have to beg and scratch for money. To be healthy in a general sense. If he is hypothetically believing in God for this argument, then surely he can not deny these bounties, similar things have been given to billions of people world wide.

This is just prosperity theology revamped for Islam. You are arguing favoritism in which Fry's situation is granted by God but denied to others. God gets a pat on the back for Fry's life but has zero responsibility for those that are not as "lucky"

We live in a world where the evil, the bad, the unjust is consistently highlighted but how about the every day miracles? I'm a medical student and I have seen a miracle almost every day spent in hospital.

Sure you do. Or this is just the typical pushing of medical treatment down in order to put miracles on a pedestal with miracle seekers.

People walking who doctors said would never be able to, people recovering from infections they shouldn't have been able to, people surviving cancers doctors only gave 6 months too and so on and so forth.

Cause doctors can never be wrong..... Projecting your absolutism on to a profession that does no such thing.

Allah has blessed so many. Yes there are cases of immense tragedies around the world, natural disasters among them but that is how Allah has created nature. Tectonic plates move, the winds pick up, rain causes floods. That's nature. And even then, the vast majority of the human population is saved from teh worst of it.

What about those that are not blessed. I guess Allah has no responsibility at all. Prosperity Gospel again

Children die, again, another tragedy but Allah sends them straight to paradise. Eternal life, no pain, no disability, no envy, hunger, jealousy. Parents of such children will follow them into paradise too. A blessing through pain and hardship.

Only if the parents are the right type of believer, if not you argument collapses.

On top of all that, Allah has never once stated that this life is perfect. It's not meant to be. It's a struggle. Do we hate and curse and admonish our parents for making us do our homework so that we can have a successful life in the future? Do we hate them for not giving us what we want all the time? Wek now it is all for the better.

My parents exists, anyone can verify their existences . Your analogue is flawed

It always strikes me that the most well of seem to complain the most.

This is because you really do not grasp the issues and hand-wave it away.

 

[Ingledsva]

...
An analogy I'd make is two siblings have the same father, and live with him, however the father gives the best food, clothes, and affection to one child whilst starving and abusing the other. Should the child who is favoured be happy because he is well off and grateful to his father, or should he see him for the monster the father is REGARDLESS of how he has treat him personally.

I like that last.

It is basically the same reason I have given over and over for not believing the God of the Bible - is God.

The stories of YHVH's evil are ignored, - and we are told God is love.

The stories of the Bible God - killing the innocent for the crimes of others, and laws, - saying they can kill people that are different, rape, own women, hold slaves, etc., tell me that the book is by man, - not any God.

*

 

[Riverwolf]

Interesting theory, but if death is not bad then why are we, by human nature, extremely unhappy when someone dies?

Because we're social animals. We evolved to live in communities. When one member of a community dies, a small part of everyone in that community dies. Hence why we also get far more upset when someone close to us dies, than someone we don't know(generally speaking; there are those such as myself who have hyper-empathy, and thus more likely to get upset regardless; meanwhile there are those who have little to no empathy, and so couldn't care less in this sense).

As for the OP, I can't see that video, because it's apparently not available in the US.

However, since there's a lot of talk about the Problem of Evil, I'm going to assume that's what it's primarily about.

Let me say this: I am a polytheist, and as a result, that Problem doesn't even exist for me. There's no objective "good" or "evil", rather these are words that we use to describe our relationships with certain things or events. What's good for one person might be evil for another. And it's the same for the Gods: what pleases one God might anger another, while another God might be apathetic to it. As for "creation", well, the Gods didn't make us or the world. The world was here first, and we're not so much children of the Gods as we are siblings (at least how I see it). Except, of course, for those Gods who are Giants, such as Earth, Moon, and Sun.

 

[Domenic]

What do you say to this?

[video=youtube;-suvkwNYSQo]

[/video]

If god/Allah/whatever is real, then we shouldn't be worshipping them, but despise them. Honestly, if you believe in god then I don't know why you'd worship them. What kind of ****ed up being would create a race and then ask them to say thanks 6 times a day, or create a world which babies die the day they are born? This world isn't evil because of humanity, although we do play a part, but the evils of humanity aren't a TOUCH on the evils of the one(s) who created this world.

If you are deeply religious, I want you to watch the video, tell me what you think or even just question it yourself.

Also, ask yourself this. If you're muslim, would you be a muslim if both of your parents were devout christians? Or the other way around? Substitute both religions to whatever, but if you deeply believe in a religion because of your parents or the people around you, why are you right in this instance but not right in the one(s) in which your influences are from a different religion?

You are judging God by what religions are saying, and doing...religions are not from God.
You are judging God by what is taking place on earth...God is not the one doing all the harm to the human family.

You are blaming God for what Satan is doing. I tell you the truth...God is going to bring this mess Satan has made to a fast stop. You need to make a hard study of the scriptures in the scrolls to understand what is going on. I would start with the five books of Enoch.. Enoch was loved by God...so much that when he was near death, God would not let him die, but took him into heaven.

 

[viole]

I would start with the five books of Enoch.. Enoch was loved by God...so much that when he was near death, God would not let him die, but took him into heaven.

Big deal, if you can go to Heaven immediately after you die.

By the way. Why not taking him to heaven before he was near death, then? That would have been even more loving. Nobody really likes to run out of oxygen, even if they will be transported to Heaven a microsecond before drawing their terminal gasp.

Ciao

- viole

 

[rusra02]

I believe the person responsible for all the suffering and evil we endure is Satan, not the true God. Like the slanderer I believe he is, Satan seeks to have people blame God for the evil he himself causes. As Jesus Christ told wicked religious leaders of his day; "You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." I believe the true God has explained why he has permitted wickedness for a set time. An honest person will seek this information.

 

[Ingledsva]

I believe the person responsible for all the suffering and evil we endure is Satan, not the true God. Like the slanderer I believe he is, Satan seeks to have people blame God for the evil he himself causes. As Jesus Christ told wicked religious leaders of his day; "You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." I believe the true God has explained why he has permitted wickedness for a set time. An honest person will seek this information.

This being written in John 8:44 doesn't mean Jesus actually said it.

I think blaming something like Satan for all suffering and evil, takes the blame off the true evil - HUMANS!

Fires, car crashes, murder, are all caused by humans.

Natural disasters are just that natural.

Something like Satan isn't involved in either case.

Even if you believe in Satan, - you are giving one of YHVH's created servants, - a lot of power, - that Tanakh doesn't say he has. People came up with the "evil" Satan later.

*

 

[Quagmire]

No, you're totally got me there.

I'm to blame for bone cancer.

When it's a terminal illness no, they cannot be helped.Not to mention - I shouldn't have to help them. For example, I could send food, go out of my way and save all my life to build something in Africa which will help them, taking up my full lifetime of savings ect, or god could just will it and it would happen. God could have wished for no starvation, no cancer in children,

Or no world at all. That would solve everything right there.

Humanity is not to blame for bone marrow cancer in children -

Of course we are. If there were no humans, there would be no human children with bone cancer.

An analogy I'd make is two siblings have the same father, and live with him, however the father gives the best food, clothes, and affection to one child whilst starving and abusing the other. Should the child who is favoured be happy because he is well off and grateful to his father, or should he see him for the monster the father is REGARDLESS of how he has treat him personally.

I don't know. I figure if he's sitting there trying to figure out his father instead of trying to figure out how to help his brother then he has no room to judge.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

What do you say to this?

[video=youtube;-suvkwNYSQo]

[/video]

If god/Allah/whatever is real, then we shouldn't be worshipping them, but despise them. Honestly, if you believe in god then I don't know why you'd worship them. What kind of ****ed up being would create a race and then ask them to say thanks 6 times a day, or create a world which babies die the day they are born? This world isn't evil because of humanity, although we do play a part, but the evils of humanity aren't a TOUCH on the evils of the one(s) who created this world.

If you are deeply religious, I want you to watch the video, tell me what you think or even just question it yourself.

Also, ask yourself this. If you're muslim, would you be a muslim if both of your parents were devout christians? Or the other way around? Substitute both religions to whatever, but if you deeply believe in a religion because of your parents or the people around you, why are you right in this instance but not right in the one(s) in which your influences are from a different religion?

I'd second what many said here, free will. Good and evil define each other just as left and right, destroy one and you destroy the other.

 

[viole]

I'd second what many said here, free will. Good and evil define each other just as left and right, destroy one and you destroy the other.

Ergo, if there is no evil in heaven, then there cannot be any good, either.

Correct?

Ciao

- viole

 

[blue taylor]

We live in a natural world and people die.

However, the Bible says YHVH murdered the innocent for the crimes of others. That is not acceptable, and tells me that the Bible is not the word of God, - but of man.

I agree with you on the worship thing. It would be like a mother pumping out some kids, and then saying kneel before me and worship, - I gave you life. And if you don't worship me, - I'm going to destroy you.

Remember, the Abrahamic religions are not the only religions.

*

Very well said.