How does the Epic of Gilgamesh discredit the story of Noah’s flood?

[People_Lack_Integrity]

You seem to be under the impresion that if Noah's flood is a myth or legend, that this somehow discredits the Torah. Far from it. Myth is a powerful form of literature, which uses a non-historical story to teach deep values. Why wouldn't God want myth in the Bible?

The whole point of my post is that the version in the bible is myth, not to be taken literally. I didn't say anything else beyond that, so if you agree it is myth, then we aren't in disagreement there. I don't believe in any gods, but that's a whole other discussion.

 

[Moonjuice]

You have?! Well then, please quote some and show up my ignorance in the field of geology.

You really want me to go through all your posts and copy and paste your own comments back to you, pointing out all the things you have said that tipped me off to the fact that you are not a professional geologist, to support my claim that you are not a professional geologist, when you already know that is not what you do for a living? LOL!

This is the part of your post that tipped me off the most.

Because, claiming the Colorado River caused the erosion, creates a problem: where’s the debris? There should be tons of it.
But No delta material, anywhere.

The reality is you do not know how much debris there is, or where it should be deposited, or how much debris is magically missing. You have no way of measuring or even identifying what has been deposited all along the river from the GC all the way to Mexico for hundreds of thousands of years (or what it even looked like before we built all the dams). With this statement alone, it is clear, you are not a professional geologist. Maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Moon juice, you took this quote of mine,
“Because, claiming the Colorado River caused the erosion, creates a problem: where’s the debris? There should be tonsof it.
But No delta material, anywhere.”

Then you replied…

With this statement alone, it is clear, you are not a professional geologist.

But did you forget what I said?

I shouldn’t have been so dogmatic though; I was wrong to say ‘none.’ I apologize.
There is some, of course.

Am I not allowed to make a wrong statement?

But I stand by my other statement, that the erosion of the GC isn’t found anywhere, to the degree it should be. In fact, it’s less than 1%. Probably less than 1/100 of 1 percent.

The flow & velocity of the Colorado river alone could not have transported the entire amount of sediment / debris that is obviously missing, a thousand miles away.

Again, I’m not a YEC…. I do not believe the GC strata was laid down by the Flood, there’s no process that accounts for such a scenario.
But, the Flood did cut through & expose them, and transported the debris away.

Science cannot allow for a metaphysical explanation, so it comes up short in explaining the data.

That is science’s problem. It didn’t seem to hinder Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Johannes Kepler, etc., in reaching their scientific theories and conclusions!

I hope you have a great day.

 

[Riders]

Yeah...here's the whole problem with your premise is that the Epic of Gilgamesh was written before Genesis...long before. It's estimated that Genesis was written somewhere around 1400BC. The Epic of Gilgamesh was written around 2100BC, but that's not even the oldest flood story. The oldest is the Sumerian creation myth written around 2900 BC in which Ziasudra rode out a great flood on a barge with a bunch of animals. There's actually even more flood stories than that though and all of them pre-dating the old testament. Now what is more likely....that there was a flood, but was a local one, as described in the Sumerian tradition, which was not supernatural at all, but was indeed an epic event...in which the story spread by word of mouth and got transformed into other flood myths that were based upon this original, but didn't happen as actually described and the Genesis version was just one of many...or that this Genesis story, written much, much later...got it right and the entire world was flooded, but no one seemed to notice?

Yeah...here's the whole problem with your premise is that the Epic of Gilgamesh was written before Genesis...long before. It's estimated that Genesis was written somewhere around 1400BC. The Epic of Gilgamesh was written around 2100BC, but that's not even the oldest flood story. The oldest is the Sumerian creation myth written around 2900 BC in which Ziasudra rode out a great flood on a barge with a bunch of animals. There's actually even more flood stories than that though and all of them pre-dating the old testament. Now what is more likely....that there was a flood, but was a local one, as described in the Sumerian tradition, which was not supernatural at all, but was indeed an epic event...in which the story spread by word of mouth and got transformed into other flood myths that were based upon this original, but didn't happen as actually described and the Genesis version was just one of many...or that this Genesis story, written much, much later...got it right and the entire world was flooded, but no one seemed to notice?

What evidence is there that a flood that destroyed the world happened in Noah's time? Is there any evidence the ark has been found?

 

[Moonjuice]

But I stand by my other statement, that the erosion of the GC isn’t found anywhere, to the degree it should be. In fact, it’s less than 1%. Probably less than 1/100 of 1 percent.
The flow & velocity of the Colorado river alone could not have transported the entire amount of sediment / debris that is obviously missing, a thousand miles away.

The statement you are "standing behind" is the point in question. Let's focus on that for just a second. Looks like you have added flow & velocity now, we can dig into that too. Since you have a conclusion here, you must have a lot of data you are not sharing that helped you reach this conclusion. Please use that data to explain it to me.

Since you know, please share with me how much "debris" is supposed to exist from the Grand Canyon? The obvious amount that you think is missing, how much is that?
How were you able to determine that only 1% of it exists? Can you show your math?
While combing the banks of miles and miles of river that run from northern Arizona to Mexico, how did you determine what material is GC debris and what isn't?
Where are you measuring this debris at and how did you measure the debris - by weight or volume?
Have you considered every square foot of debris that has been deposited along the banks and previous banks, which are no longer near the river at all?
What is the current flow & velocity of the CO river?
How much "debris" is currently being carried out of the GC and where is it being deposited?
What kind of debris is it now and how does this differ from the debris that eroded a million years ago?
What was the flow and velocity of the CO river, 500 years ago?
How about 5,000 years ago?
How did it flow 1 million years ago?
Does it flow the same every year?

Lets be honest here. You don't have any of the necessary information you need to justify the claim you are making. You stand by it not because of merit, but because you made up your mind without considering geological evidence at all.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The statement you are "standing behind" is the point in question. Let's focus on that for just a second. Looks like you have added flow & velocity now, we can dig into that too. Since you have a conclusion here, you must have a lot of data you are not sharing that helped you reach this conclusion. Please use that data to explain it to me.

Since you know, please share with me how much "debris" is supposed to exist from the Grand Canyon? The obvious amount that you think is missing, how much is that?
How were you able to determine that only 1% of it exists? Can you show your math?
While combing the banks of miles and miles of river that run from northern Arizona to Mexico, how did you determine what material is GC debris and what isn't?
Where are you measuring this debris at and how did you measure the debris - by weight or volume?
Have you considered every square foot of debris that has been deposited along the banks and previous banks, which are no longer near the river at all?
What is the current flow & velocity of the CO river?
How much "debris" is currently being carried out of the GC and where is it being deposited?
What kind of debris is it now and how does this differ from the debris that eroded a million years ago?
What was the flow and velocity of the CO river, 500 years ago?
How about 5,000 years ago?
How did it flow 1 million years ago?
Does it flow the same every year?

Lets be honest here. You don't have any of the necessary information you need to justify the claim you are making. You stand by it not because of merit, but because you made up your mind without considering geological evidence at all.

How ridiculous an assumption!
Lol!
1.18 tons. Lol.
Google it.

 

[Moonjuice]

How ridiculous an assumption!
Lol!
1.18 tons. Lol.
Google it.

Ha ha! Good one. I have 1.18 tons of dirt in my back yard.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Ha ha! Good one. I have 1.18 tons of dirt in my back yard.

Well, there’s where it went!
Lol

 

[Moonjuice]

How ridiculous an assumption!
Lol!
1.18 tons. Lol.
Google it.

The actual volume of the GC is around 5.45 trillion cubic yards. Since a single cubic yard of soil weighs over a ton (2,200lbs), I'd say your calculations are off by over 5.449 Trillion. Nice work.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The actual volume of the GC is around 5.45 trillion cubic yards. Since a single cubic yard of soil weighs over a ton (2,200lbs), I'd say your calculations are off by over 5.449 Trillion. Nice work.

Haha. I was just kidding, I hope you know!
That converts to 4.17 trillion cubic meters. And I meter of sand weighs over 1500 Kg.

 

[People_Lack_Integrity]

What evidence is there that a flood that destroyed the world happened in Noah's time? Is there any evidence the ark has been found?

There isn't any. The geological record doesn't show any, at best, it shows local floods of the Euphrates and other areas, but definitely none of a global flood. The nail in the coffin for those that believe in a literal worldwide flood is that there are several civilizations that we have records of from around the world that lived before and well after the supposed flood. I've yet to hear any christian literalist even attempt to answer that one.

 

[Zerilos]

As a creationist and biblical literalist, the existence of the Epic of Gilgamesh makes perfect sense. The people who created the myth of Gilgamesh were descendants of Noah..

There is no reason to believe this. The Jews spent time as captives in Babylon, which is where they probably first heard of the tale. You offer no evidence that the Hebrews were the original authors of the tale.

 

[Brian2]

But what did Jesus say?

And why would Noah have to stay in the Ark for over a year, if it were local? How could they land on high-altitude Ararat?

No, no.

I love science, too; but don’t forget, science only uses naturalism to explain things…. they can’t allow any type of god to do anything. They won’t accept any such explanation. So their interpretations of evidence are way off, on some things.

I’ve asked you this before but you didn’t answer: just what concrete evidence do you think science has found that discredits a global Flood?

Young Earth, yes…. But one has nothing to do with the other.

I suppose the flood has nothing to do with YEC really but it seems more real and fits with the science and the Bible imo to go with a large local flood or indeed many large local floods.
That does not mean that the flood in the Middle East area was not deep. Noah probably would not be able to see the tops of the high hills until the flood subsided and/or the ark drifted towards the Ararat mountains.
That area has slow drainage and so it could take a long time for the flood to subside completely.
But you might be right and the lack of evidence might be because it is just not known what to look for as evidence of a world wide flood.
It is hard to say what concrete evidence has been found to discredit the flood. There are a lot of little bits that added together give a good anti worldwide flood argument.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But you might be right and the lack of evidence might be because it is just not known what to look for as evidence of a world wide flood.
It is hard to say what concrete evidence has been found to discredit the flood. There are a lot of little bits that added together give a good anti worldwide flood argument.

And keep in mind, ‘the ruler/prince/god of this world’ (John 12:31; John 16:11; 2 Corinthians 4:4) is temporarily controlling this System (1 John 5:19); that’s why things are so messed up, and confusion about which way to turn, is everywhere! — Revelation 12 9,12

Truth is actively being hidden.
Just for a little while longer.

Take care.

 

[Brian2]

And keep in mind, ‘the ruler/prince/god of this world’ (John 12:31; John 16:11; 2 Corinthians 4:4) is temporarily controlling this System (1 John 5:19); that’s why things are so messed up, and confusion about which way to turn, is everywhere! — Revelation 12 9,12

Truth is actively being hidden.
Just for a little while longer.

Take care.

It is interesting that the Anakim were on the earth even after the flood, so I guess that means not everyone was killed in the flood apart from those on the ark.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It is interesting that the Anakim were on the earth even after the flood, so I guess that means not everyone was killed in the flood apart from those on the ark.

The Bible is very clear…
Beginning in Genesis 7 21: “Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.”

Wouldn’t this understanding of the Biblical account agree with the “Y-chromosomal Adam” evidence that science has discovered? Timeline is off, but then, naturalistic science can’t give credibility to any Biblical narrative supporting Divine intervention

 

[Brian2]

The Bible is very clear…
Beginning in Genesis 7 21: “Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.”

Wouldn’t this understanding of the Biblical account agree with the “Y-chromosomal Adam” evidence that science has discovered? Timeline is off, but then, naturalistic science can’t give credibility to any Biblical narrative supporting Divine intervention

If anything I think the Y-Chromosomal Adam could be Adam or an ancestor of Adam (who was not human but an animal without the spirit of life from God) if the body of Adam evolved and that is how God made it and why it resembles the body of an evolved being.
What I meant about the Anakim is that IF they (Numbers 13:32-33) are the same as the Nephilim of Gen 6 then the flood would have been local.
It is interesting that the Bible can legitimately be translated to say that all the "land" was covered (instead of all the earth) and that the high "hills" were covered instead of high "mountains".

 

[People_Lack_Integrity]

But you might be right and the lack of evidence might be because it is just not known what to look for as evidence of a world wide flood.
It is hard to say what concrete evidence has been found to discredit the flood. There are a lot of little bits that added together give a good anti worldwide flood argument.

No he's not right at all and you both have it backwards. A worldwide flood is an extraordinary claim and one in which should have a great deal of evidence to support it. Yet there isn't and it is known what to look for. For example, geologists can easily identify flood layers in the earth, because there is heavy mixing of rock, sediment, debris...flood layers are very obvious. They have identified these in floods that settled after only a few years, as well as matched them up with historical floods. So, if there was a worldwide flood, there should be a worldwide flood layer at the same location in the geologic column. Yet not only is there not, but there are areas with no flood layers.

But if you are looking for evidence against an event that has no evidence for it to begin with...well it's hard to disprove a negative, but in this case you can, because it's not just about the missing evidence, it's about historical civilizations that existed both before and after the flood, went on existing as if nothing happened and were not wiped out. According to most creationists and biblical historians, the flood would have happened around 4500 years ago, around 2500 BC. Archaeologists have tracked and documented the history of the Sumerians from 3300BC-1900BC, meaning they survived the flood. The Egyptians from from about 3,150BC-30BC, Mesopotamians from 6,500-539BC, Ancient Greek 2,700BC-500BC, Mayans 2,600BC-900AD, Norte Chico Civilization 3,000BC-1,800BC, Ancient Chinese 7,000BC-Unbroken all the way through several dynasties to the present! Australian Aboriginals 50,000BC-Present unbroken. There are even more that I didn't list here, but the point is, here you have a list of civilizations that we have the histories of, through archaeology by finding not just artifacts from them, but their structures, their parchments, their stone tablets inscribed, some with dated calendars like the Mayans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, who tracked their years using basic astronomy and math, who's calendars are easily understood and verified. None of these civilizations were wiped out at the time of the flood. None of them. Ancient Chinese actually has a flood story as well, except it's actually real and happened about 4,000 years ago when the Yellow river broke it's banks and destroyed pretty much all the Yao territories...but again, that was a local flood, not worldwide and did not wipe out Ancient Chinese civilization. Chinese culture is probably one of the most well documented, as they were writing and reading, recording history, long before anyone else and again...did not suddenly stop 4500 years ago. Instead their great civilization and history went on, unbroken, all the way until the present.

So if you want evidence that the worldwide flood did not happen...that's it right there, dozens of ancient civilizations that were not wiped out, that went on recording history and make no mention of a global flood. So...for you and Hockeycowboy...what's you answer to these archaeological facts?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If anything I think the Y-Chromosomal Adam could be Adam or an ancestor of Adam (who was not human but an animal without the spirit of life from God) if the body of Adam evolved and that is how God made it and why it resembles the body of an evolved being.
What I meant about the Anakim is that IF they (Numbers 13:32-33) are the same as the Nephilim of Gen 6 then the flood would have been local.
It is interesting that the Bible can legitimately be translated to say that all the "land" was covered (instead of all the earth) and that the high "hills" were covered instead of high "mountains".

Grief! You don’t understand, do you? Obviously.
MtEve came before Y-chromosomal Adam!
Y-chromosomal Adam - Wikipedia
That’s why Noah fits the evidence.

“…if…Adam evolved…”?! Really?
Genesis 2 7,8; Luke 3 38


And the “Anakim” were like the Nephilim; so were the Emim, the Rephaim.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No he's not right at all and you both have it backwards. A worldwide flood is an extraordinary claim and one in which should have a great deal of evidence to support it. Yet there isn't and it is known what to look for. For example, geologists can easily identify flood layers in the earth, because there is heavy mixing of rock, sediment, debris...flood layers are very obvious. They have identified these in floods that settled after only a few years, as well as matched them up with historical floods. So, if there was a worldwide flood, there should be a worldwide flood layer at the same location in the geologic column. Yet not only is there not, but there are areas with no flood layers.

But if you are looking for evidence against an event that has no evidence for it to begin with...well it's hard to disprove a negative, but in this case you can, because it's not just about the missing evidence, it's about historical civilizations that existed both before and after the flood, went on existing as if nothing happened and were not wiped out. According to most creationists and biblical historians, the flood would have happened around 4500 years ago, around 2500 BC. Archaeologists have tracked and documented the history of the Sumerians from 3300BC-1900BC, meaning they survived the flood. The Egyptians from from about 3,150BC-30BC, Mesopotamians from 6,500-539BC, Ancient Greek 2,700BC-500BC, Mayans 2,600BC-900AD, Norte Chico Civilization 3,000BC-1,800BC, Ancient Chinese 7,000BC-Unbroken all the way through several dynasties to the present! Australian Aboriginals 50,000BC-Present unbroken. There are even more that I didn't list here, but the point is, here you have a list of civilizations that we have the histories of, through archaeology by finding not just artifacts from them, but their structures, their parchments, their stone tablets inscribed, some with dated calendars like the Mayans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, who tracked their years using basic astronomy and math, who's calendars are easily understood and verified. None of these civilizations were wiped out at the time of the flood. None of them. Ancient Chinese actually has a flood story as well, except it's actually real and happened about 4,000 years ago when the Yellow river broke it's banks and destroyed pretty much all the Yao territories...but again, that was a local flood, not worldwide and did not wipe out Ancient Chinese civilization. Chinese culture is probably one of the most well documented, as they were writing and reading, recording history, long before anyone else and again...did not suddenly stop 4500 years ago. Instead their great civilization and history went on, unbroken, all the way until the present.

So if you want evidence that the worldwide flood did not happen...that's it right there, dozens of ancient civilizations that were not wiped out, that went on recording history and make no mention of a global flood. So...for you and Hockeycowboy...what's you answer to these archaeological facts?

“There’s no evidence”! I’ve posted quite a lot, did you not read it?
The claims of certain cultures existing for “1000’s of years”, certainly , after the Flood. Before the Flood? No…it’s fabricated lineages. When it comes to ancestry, we humans always want to go further and further back. It doesn’t take a big stretch of the imagination, to realize that some dishonesty was occurring.

(By Mesopotamian, did you mean Babylon? Because you specifically stated, it ended in 539.BCE. Just wanted to clarify.)

im not going to reiterate all the evidence again.You’re more than welcome to challenge my claims, but 1 or 2 at a time…..I will not respond to gishes. Belittling attitudes or Ad Homs, either.