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How far can one go in not taking the Bible literally?

MHz

Member
Not familiar with everything in any particular book of the Bible, but I'd probably take as possibly true those parts that are logically consistent with reality.
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How about the water crossing done by Moses?

Taking the text from Ex:14:21: and applying it to this map below it is quite easy to conclude that the parting of the water was in the narrows of the Bittern Lakes. The strong east wind blowing all night would have pushed the water from the small lake into the larger lake and that wet sandy bottom would have allowed Moses and Co to cross and when the armies followed the wind stopped and the water moving fast and only a few feet deep would have killed all of them. Sometime the words are made out to be something that even beyond supernatural.
Moses could travel through places without roads, Pharaoh would have had to use the roads to get from Migdol to Pi-hahiroth. If he was camped there Moses could not have made it to the Red Sea.

pi-hahiroth.jpg
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
How about the water crossing done by Moses?

Taking the text from Ex:14:21: and applying it to this map below it is quite easy to conclude that the parting of the water was in the narrows of the Bittern Lakes. The strong east wind blowing all night would have pushed the water from the small lake into the larger lake and that wet sandy bottom would have allowed Moses and Co to cross and when the armies followed the wind stopped and the water moving fast and only a few feet deep would have killed all of them. Sometime the words are made out to be something that even beyond supernatural.
Moses could travel through places without roads, Pharaoh would have had to use the roads to get from Migdol to Pi-hahiroth. If he was camped there Moses could not have made it to the Red Sea.

pi-hahiroth.jpg
Exodus 14:21
21 Moses raised his hand over the Red Sea, and the Lord caused a strong wind to blow from the east. The wind blew all night long. The sea split, and the wind made the ground dry.​

Is it realistic the Red Sea could be parted and its bottom made dry by blowing winds? No.

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MHz

Member
You are right but then I wasn't promoting that anyway.
Do you mean red as in the color of that shallow part of the lake where they crossed or do you mean Reed Sea as is often referred to as the correct term used. My version is quite possible and science support it while splitting an ocean is above supernatural and that is reserved for the parts Revelations covers.

What I am saying is that Moses turned due south at Migdol and passed just to the west of the large body of water called Bittern Lake(s) and camped at the narrow spot where the large lake joined to the smaller lake. Pharaoh would have had to take the road to cut him off when Moses got that far south.That road is still north of the Red Sea so that is not the body of water that was parted by God for the 12 Tribes.

The wind blowing from the south of the lake towards the north would have pushed that water into the larger lake and that is how Moses made his escape, Pharaoh tried to follow and the wind stopped and the water came rushing back in a flash flood and those kill everything in it's path.

Hope that helps.
 

MHz

Member
Is it realistic the Red Sea could be parted and its bottom made dry by blowing winds? No.

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That does bring up an important point. How specific is the Bible and should we apply the science we understand today to all of the Bible?
I'm leaning towards the whole book is meant to be understood by the generation that will see the prophecy of the seal and the manifestation of those prophecies in the trumps.

A map and directions is something I would use today but being there and timing how long it too to walk there and how long to drive around on the road would also play into what is my natural view. What not natural to be is how fast an army moved compared to a caravan using their feet for setting the speed.

That is one example, an even better on is determining how much water was involved in the flood Noah witnessed. The estimate ranges from it being 20ft above the highest mountain and uniform after that so trillions of cubic miles of water has to appear and then disappear again. Above supernatural again.

Living in Alberta near the Rockies I would ten to see 22ft of rain coming in 40 days as biblical, without a doubt. Should I survive I would witness the rain that fell on the high hills and mountain tops as falling as snow or turning to ice as soon as the rain hit the ground. At the end of the first 40 days of a little more than 360 days the rain equaled 22.5 ft. 150 days after that the snow had melted so you could see the rocky tops of the mountains. Not on the same timeline but that is a yearly weather pattern around here.
6 inches of rain in 1 day does happen in a few spots in the world and it is a 'heavy downpour' that thunder storms can mimic for a very short period of time so rain at that level is possible.
The alterations that somebody from this era that would understand the text to mean that if all the land on earth had a rain that lasted 40 days and totaled 20ft then when the waters receded to the ocean it would raise the level of the ocean about 5ft. (back to normal level id the 'waters of the deep' is heavy evaporation of oceanic water that would lower the level about 5 ft and 360 days later it would be back at the original level.
The other option is a lot of ice suddenly melted and the oceans rose 5 more feet to add to the 400ft the oceans have risen since the end of the last major ice-age.
Conclusion, possible using facts we can verify using the science of today, adding the person who could cause it to happen at that particular rate make the God of the Bible just who He claims to be.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You are right but then I wasn't promoting that anyway.
Do you mean red as in the color of that shallow part of the lake where they crossed or do you mean Reed Sea as is often referred to as the correct term used. My version is quite possible and science support it while splitting an ocean is above supernatural and that is reserved for the parts Revelations covers.

What I am saying is that Moses turned due south at Migdol and passed just to the west of the large body of water called Bittern Lake(s) and camped at the narrow spot where the large lake joined to the smaller lake.
Call it what you like, "Red Sea" or "Reed Sea," it was the sea near Ball Zephon.

As Exodus 12:2 says:

“Tell the Israelites to turn back to Pi Hahiroth. Tell them to camp for the night between Migdol and the Red Sea. This is near Baal Zephon."​

pi-hahiroth.jpg
baal-zephon.jpg

Only after that (Exodus 12:15--) is he supposed to have crossed the Red Sea.

That does bring up an important point. How specific is the Bible and should we apply the science we understand today to all of the Bible?
Why not? Whatever laws of physics operate today operated back then.


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MHz

Member
Ex:14:2:
Speak unto the children of Israel,
that they turn and encamp before Pi-hahiroth,
between Migdol and the sea,
over against Baal-zephon:
before it shall ye encamp by the sea.

Draw a line between the two 'cities' and you cross right through the Bittern Lakes. The term 'before' means you camp before you get to Pi-hahiroth after leaving Migdol.
Using g00gleearth I'll bet we could even find their footyprints lol Not really but it would show the best route and give us an idea of how deep the lake was (if the canal didn't mess that up. I wonder if they found any chariots in the dredging operations?)
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Not familiar with everything in any particular book of the Bible, but I'd probably take those parts that are logically consistent with reality as possibly true.
.

Well do you believe that the incidents which you referred to in Joshua, Samuel and Chrononicles really happened?

Yes or No?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Well do you believe that the incidents which you referred to in Joshua, Samuel and Chrononicles really happened?

Yes or No?
Not believing the god of Abraham exists, except as a character in the Bible---I'm an agnostic---of course not. But don't be mislead by the idea that one can't refer to him in that context. So is god logically consistent with reality? No.

.
 

MHz

Member
How about when God stopped the world turning for an afternoon. Obviously the earth has never stopped spinning but put a mist over the area and bring in the start of Bethlehem or Ezekiel's wheel and you can make it appear that the sun (faint outline in the clouds) did stay over the city for 6 hours and raise it higher and that would make it appear the evening had arrived. The next day is business as usual. Stopping the earth would be creating an accident where you are crashing at more than 1,000mpr and that is going to hurt everybody.

I would be the one who says all events mentioned have a history based in literalism. Perhaps you have some specific examples in mind.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Yes. But it was destroyed because it was used for the wrong purpose, it was an originally good thing that became a distraction.
Yes, but Jesus has become an idol because he is being used for the wrong purpose and has become a distraction ....

I meant the whole story from beginning to end with snakes biting and getting healed if you looked to it
If that were a good thing, they wouldn't have destroyed it. Yet we have religious tourist traps even NOW, so I guess we just don't learn anything.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
In another thread the issue of reading the Bible literally came up.

In response to my assumption that everyone would agree that according to the Bible god had killed people, Saint Frankenstein said "It's cute how you assume I think God actually killed anyone. You assume wrong."

Okay, but this prompted me to provide several examples, remarking "Sorry. I simply assumed that you believe what the Bible says. Things like

Numbers 11:1
And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

1 Samuel 25:38
And it came to pass about ten days after, that the LORD smote Nabal, that he died.

2 Chronicles 13:20
Neither did Jeroboam recover strength again in the days of Abijah: and the LORD struck him, and he died.

Joshua 10:10
And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.

Joshua 10:11

And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.​

In response, Saint Frankenstein said "You assume I take the OT as literal history or that there's no other ways to interpret verses. Maybe you should stop assuming things." I said I would, but out of curiosity asked: "if you would indulge me for a moment and tell me what

"Eventually Yahweh struck him and he died,"*

actually means.

* Source: Bible - Catholic Online


After this we had several more exchanges, but none addressed my request. However, Saint Frankenstein did finally say "I'll reply to [my request] it if you make it [in another thread]." Thus the origin of this thread. And ya gotta give the guy credit for his probity.

So here we are. Hopefully in the next post or so he will tell us what the verse actually means.

But aside from this I invite everyone chime in on the issue of difficult scriptures; Are there passages simply so troublesome that they demand not be taken literally, but beg to be reinterpreted no matter what?


I am surprised you did not use the Biblical flood account when it came to god killing people......
 

MHz

Member
I am surprised you did not use the Biblical flood account when it came to god killing people......
The victims of the flood were the children of the daughters of Eve. That means their determination is made at the Great White Throne event as they are the ones that the 'seas' give up. Being in the grave washes away all sins so the GWT event is a time of chastisement and moving on rather than an increase in punishment. Hebrews:12 is an explanation of how 'that day' goes for all the people still left in death.

Re:20:11-15:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead,
small and great,
stand before God;
and the books were opened:
and another book was opened,
which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Heb:12:6-9:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening,
God dealeth with you as with sons;
for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement,
whereof all are partakers,
then are ye ********,
and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us,
and we gave them reverence:
shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits,
and live?

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The people that have died because God said it should happen and then some 'men' carried out the 'deed' seem to be covered in this verse as far as when they will be resurrected. An example of the first group would be Stephen and the two witnesses from Re:11.

Re:20:4:
And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,

and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The flood in Noah's time and the people (not giants) killed in the exodus wars would be some historical examples. Pharaoh had his heart hardened so he could not surrender to God long before all the plagues were poured out. That would mean all those deaths were because 'of the word of God'.
In the resurrection of the 'whole House of Israel' as defined in Exe:37 would include the whole nations where children were taken and later in life they married into one of the 12 tribes.

This earth is a seed bank for life at the very beginning of the era that is called the 'new earth'. A persons name is entered at the moment of conception and that is who will have their name read for the 1,000 year reign (Re:10) and who will have it read at the GWT event when all the books are opened.

All of Adam and Eve's children exit New Jerusalem at the end of Revelations:22. To speed things up God waters the dust and all the other flesh that was conceived at anytime during the time this earth existed is brought back to life and from there things go back to the progression we are used to.

Lu:12:6:
Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings,
and not one of them is forgotten before God?
Lu:12:7:
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Fear not therefore:
ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Isa:60:22:
A little one shall become a thousand,
and a small one a strong nation:
I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
 

MHz

Member
Everyone but Noah's family was a child of the daughters of Eve?
That is true for Noah's wife, however the wives of the 3 sons were female giants and that is how there came to be so many giants that had to be killed in the exodus wars.
 

MHz

Member
Everyone but Noah's family was a child of the daughters of Eve?
Fallen Angels are the ones being referenced as being the 'sons of God' from Ge:6. Their children were the giants and men of renown mentioned in that same chapter.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
In another thread the issue of reading the Bible literally came up.

In response to my assumption that everyone would agree that according to the Bible god had killed people, Saint Frankenstein said "It's cute how you assume I think God actually killed anyone. You assume wrong."

Okay, but this prompted me to provide several examples, remarking "Sorry. I simply assumed that you believe what the Bible says. Things like

Numbers 11:1
And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

1 Samuel 25:38
And it came to pass about ten days after, that the LORD smote Nabal, that he died.

2 Chronicles 13:20
Neither did Jeroboam recover strength again in the days of Abijah: and the LORD struck him, and he died.

Joshua 10:10
And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.

Joshua 10:11

And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.​

In response, Saint Frankenstein said "You assume I take the OT as literal history or that there's no other ways to interpret verses. Maybe you should stop assuming things." I said I would, but out of curiosity asked: "if you would indulge me for a moment and tell me what

"Eventually Yahweh struck him and he died,"*

actually means.

* Source: Bible - Catholic Online


After this we had several more exchanges, but none addressed my request. However, Saint Frankenstein did finally say "I'll reply to [my request] it if you make it [in another thread]." Thus the origin of this thread. And ya gotta give the guy credit for his probity.

So here we are. Hopefully in the next post or so he will tell us what the verse actually means.

But aside from this I invite everyone chime in on the issue of difficult scriptures; Are there passages simply so troublesome that they demand not be taken literally, but beg to be reinterpreted no matter what?

Some are literally understood, some are idioms, and some are understood figuratively. Why is that?

1 Corinthians 2:7 New International Version (NIV)

No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

Why is it God's wisdom is hidden mystery? Because its secrets are only revealed to God's chosen.

Matthew 13:11 New International Version (NIV)

He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

That was the Lord Jesus talking to his disciples.

The Bible remain as the blue print for life
 

MHz

Member
It will still make you swallow hard if you were to find out God has something planned for you.

Ro:11:4:
But what saith the answer of God unto him?
I have reserved to myself seven thousand men,
who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
 
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