How God is a God of Love

[ether-ore]

I guess the primary reason atheist have for rejecting God is that they see all of the horror in the world and ask... why, if God, exists, would He allow it all to happen?

I offer the following as my point of view and my explanation to the above question. It is a bit long so I hope you will not be bored (those who bother to read it). I expect it to be rejected by most and I can only hope it will benefit some.

First, I think it is necessary to understand our relationship with God... what are we to Him? My answer is that we are eternal beings just as He is, except that we had no capacity or ability other than recognition and desire. We recognized in God a being of beauty and with the capacity to do things, and we desired to be as He is. I think it needs to be understood here that God did not (and does not) owe us anything. He decided to grant us our desire by making us His children and granting our spirits His form. So... we owe Him.

I believe that even after this gift was given, there was still a dissimilarity between us and God. While we were yet spirits (albeit now in the image of God) we still did not have the physical body that God has and we desired that as well. Having a physical body is problematic. It enables one to do good and evil. So, God prepared this mortal probation for us, where we could temporarily have physical bodies to prove how we would use them. God also gave commandments, instructing us how to use our bodies as well as how to interact with one another... and Him.

Interacting with God is the issue here. Remember, God does not owe us anything. He does however love us and wants to help us but just as we are expected to be constrained by and obey His law, just 'so' does He abide His own law. God only interacts with us through the covenants of His law. If we covenant with Him and abide His law, we can expect His help. If we do not covenant with Him and abide His law, we have no right to expect His help. He does not owe it to us. We are eternal beings whom God is helping, but He will not provide that help if we spurn His laws and go according to our own will. God will not endorse, sanction or otherwise countenance behaviors that go contrary to the covenant and conditions on which His assistance, blessings and help are predicated.

Consider the example of giving money to a wino. You would want to help the man, but are conflicted about whether to give him any money because you don't know how he would use it. If he promises to use it for food, clothing or shelter, you would want to give the needed assistance. But you would naturally want some assurance that food, shelter or clothing will be what the money is used for. You wouldn't want to contribute to the man's taking your assistance and using to further his own destruction and thus making you complicit in it. So, you ask him to come with you (just as God asks that you follow Him) and you will, if he chooses to follow, give him the help he needs. But the choice belongs to the wino. He may choose not to come with you for whatever reason and still, just wants the money. If he refuses to follow you in order to get help, it would be foolish to give him the money. It would be a safe bet that he would use it to buy more wine and die in a gutter somewhere and you would not want to contribute to that.

Now comes the question of individual versus collective help. Why would God allow someone who has lived a good life to suffer because of what goes on in the world? God Himself has set the example for us. Jesus Christ, who is God the Son, but nonetheless God, and because He loves us, suffered physical abuse by those who followed their own will in order to demonstrate to us how we should behave in the face of such abuse. Again, it needs to be remembered that this life is not all there is to existence. We are eternal beings and this life is but a probation and if we endure it well as in the example of Job we will be saved in the kingdom of God.

So still, why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? Another reason (other that that just mentioned above) is so that God's judgments can be just. God will judge the wicked, but wicked is as wicked does. God does not judge according to His foreknowledge. That would be unjust. He judges according to our actions. Therefore, He allows wickedness during this probation so that after we have proven ourselves, His judgments will be just.

It is very important that it be kept in mind that this life is a probation wherein we are to be proved whether or not we will follow God's commands. We have our agency and God will not violate that agency. We have that agency by virtue of the fact that we are eternal beings and not made beings, because a thing made can only do what it was made to do. During this probation, if we collectively violate its conditions, we must collectively suffer the consequences and unfortunately, good people get caught in the crossfire. The thing to remember is the example of Job and of Jesus Christ and endure this probation well.

 

[Thief]

You can say God allows it.....He rarely intervenes.

However, God gave Man dominion....all things....
and Man seems to insist on doing so even unto his fellowman.

God allows it?.....yeah.
but there have been moments when things got out of ....Hand....
so we have report of a Flood.
a report of twin cities destroyed.

there is prophecy of greater damnation ahead.

I would not use the notion of crossfire.
It's more like consequence.

Do unto others as you would have it done unto you.
because it will be done unto you as you did unto others.

 

[Koldo]

I guess the primary reason atheist have for rejecting God is that they see all of the horror in the world and ask... why, if God, exists, would He allow it all to happen?

I offer the following as my point of view and my explanation to the above question. It is a bit long so I hope you will not be bored (those who bother to read it). I expect it to be rejected by most and I can only hope it will benefit some.

First, I think it is necessary to understand our relationship with God... what are we to Him? My answer is that we are eternal beings just as He is, except that we had no capacity or ability other than recognition and desire. We recognized in God a being of beauty and with the capacity to do things, and we desired to be as He is. I think it needs to be understood here that God did not (and does not) owe us anything. He decided to grant us our desire by making us His children and granting our spirits His form. So... we owe Him.

I believe that even after this gift was given, there was still a dissimilarity between us and God. While we were yet spirits (albeit now in the image of God) we still did not have the physical body that God has and we desired that as well. Having a physical body is problematic. It enables one to do good and evil. So, God prepared this mortal probation for us, where we could temporarily have physical bodies to prove how we would use them. God also gave commandments, instructing us how to use our bodies as well as how to interact with one another... and Him.

Interacting with God is the issue here. Remember, God does not owe us anything. He does however love us and wants to help us but just as we are expected to be constrained by and obey His law, just 'so' does He abide His own law. God only interacts with us through the covenants of His law. If we covenant with Him and abide His law, we can expect His help. If we do not covenant with Him and abide His law, we have no right to expect His help. He does not owe it to us. We are eternal beings whom God is helping, but He will not provide that help if we spurn His laws and go according to our own will. God will not endorse, sanction or otherwise countenance behaviors that go contrary to the covenant and conditions on which His assistance, blessings and help are predicated.

Consider the example of giving money to a wino. You would want to help the man, but are conflicted about whether to give him any money because you don't know how he would use it. If he promises to use it for food, clothing or shelter, you would want to give the needed assistance. But you would naturally want some assurance that food, shelter or clothing will be what the money is used for. You wouldn't want to contribute to the man's taking your assistance and using to further his own destruction and thus making you complicit in it. So, you ask him to come with you (just as God asks that you follow Him) and you will, if he chooses to follow, give him the help he needs. But the choice belongs to the wino. He may choose not to come with you for whatever reason and still, just wants the money. If he refuses to follow you in order to get help, it would be foolish to give him the money. It would be a safe bet that he would use it to buy more wine and die in a gutter somewhere and you would not want to contribute to that.

Now comes the question of individual versus collective help. Why would God allow someone who has lived a good life to suffer because of what goes on in the world? God Himself has set the example for us. Jesus Christ, who is God the Son, but nonetheless God, and because He loves us, suffered physical abuse by those who followed their own will in order to demonstrate to us how we should behave in the face of such abuse. Again, it needs to be remembered that this life is not all there is to existence. We are eternal beings and this life is but a probation and if we endure it well as in the example of Job we will be saved in the kingdom of God.

So still, why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? Another reason (other that that just mentioned above) is so that God's judgments can be just. God will judge the wicked, but wicked is as wicked does. God does not judge according to His foreknowledge. That would be unjust. He judges according to our actions. Therefore, He allows wickedness during this probation so that after we have proven ourselves, His judgments will be just.

It is very important that it be kept in mind that this life is a probation wherein we are to be proved whether or not we will follow God's commands. We have our agency and God will not violate that agency. We have that agency by virtue of the fact that we are eternal beings and not made beings, because a thing made can only do what it was made to do. During this probation, if we collectively violate its conditions, we must collectively suffer the consequences and unfortunately, good people get caught in the crossfire. The thing to remember is the example of Job and of Jesus Christ and endure this probation well.

It is really interesting to see what lengths people go through to justify their belief in a good ( and powerful ) god.

 

[Deathbydefault]

I guess the primary reason atheist have for rejecting God is that they see all of the horror in the world and ask... why, if God, exists, would He allow it all to happen?

Woah, I'll just stop right here to kill this a bit.
The main reason many atheists, that were previously Christian, have left Christianity might be more due to the fact that the Christian God advocates all these various horrible acts, less so than allows them to happen.

First, I think it is necessary to understand our relationship with God... what are we to Him? My answer is that we are eternal beings just as He is, except that we had no capacity or ability other than recognition and desire. We recognized in God a being of beauty and with the capacity to do things, and we desired to be as He is. I think it needs to be understood here that God did not (and does not) owe us anything. He decided to grant us our desire by making us His children and granting our spirits His form. So... we owe Him.

That's cool, I guess.

I believe that even after this gift was given, there was still a dissimilarity between us and God. While we were yet spirits (albeit now in the image of God) we still did not have the physical body that God has and we desired that as well. Having a physical body is problematic. It enables one to do good and evil. So, God prepared this mortal probation for us, where we could temporarily have physical bodies to prove how we would use them. God also gave commandments, instructing us how to use our bodies as well as how to interact with one another... and Him.

So, this God set us up to fail?
Sounds like something he'd do.

Interacting with God is the issue here. Remember, God does not owe us anything. He does however love us and wants to help us but just as we are expected to be constrained by and obey His law, just 'so' does He abide His own law. God only interacts with us through the covenants of His law. If we covenant with Him and abide His law, we can expect His help. If we do not covenant with Him and abide His law, we have no right to expect His help. He does not owe it to us. We are eternal beings whom God is helping, but He will not provide that help if we spurn His laws and go according to our own will. God will not endorse, sanction or otherwise countenance behaviors that go contrary to the covenant and conditions on which His assistance, blessings and help are predicated.

Thank you for telling me the rules that God apparently enlightened you upon.
Though, I rather he tell me in person. I defect.

Now comes the question of individual versus collective help. Why would God allow someone who has lived a good life to suffer because of what goes on in the world? God Himself has set the example for us. Jesus Christ, who is God the Son, but nonetheless God, and because He loves us, suffered physical abuse by those who followed their own will in order to demonstrate to us how we should behave in the face of such abuse. Again, it needs to be remembered that this life is not all there is to existence. We are eternal beings and this life is but a probation and if we endure it well as in the example of Job we will be saved in the kingdom of God.

Lol.

So still, why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? Another reason (other that that just mentioned above) is so that God's judgments can be just. God will judge the wicked, but wicked is as wicked does. God does not judge according to His foreknowledge. That would be unjust. He judges according to our actions. Therefore, He allows wickedness during this probation so that after we have proven ourselves, His judgments will be just.

Good to know that we are all just pets bound to the subjective will of our overbearing master.

It is very important that it be kept in mind that this life is a probation wherein we are to be proved whether or not we will follow God's commands. We have our agency and God will not violate that agency. We have that agency by virtue of the fact that we are eternal beings and not made beings, because a thing made can only do what it was made to do. During this probation, if we collectively violate its conditions, we must collectively suffer the consequences and unfortunately, good people get caught in the crossfire. The thing to remember is the example of Job and of Jesus Christ and endure this probation well.

Have fun with that.
I'm just gonna sit here and do my own thing, couldn't care less about this eternal plight you seem to be caught in.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I guess the primary reason atheist have for rejecting God is that they see all of the horror in the world and ask... why, if God, exists, would He allow it all to happen?

I offer the following as my point of view and my explanation to the above question. It is a bit long so I hope you will not be bored (those who bother to read it). I expect it to be rejected by most and I can only hope it will benefit some.

First, I think it is necessary to understand our relationship with God... what are we to Him? My answer is that we are eternal beings just as He is, except that we had no capacity or ability other than recognition and desire. We recognized in God a being of beauty and with the capacity to do things, and we desired to be as He is. I think it needs to be understood here that God did not (and does not) owe us anything. He decided to grant us our desire by making us His children and granting our spirits His form. So... we owe Him.

I believe that even after this gift was given, there was still a dissimilarity between us and God. While we were yet spirits (albeit now in the image of God) we still did not have the physical body that God has and we desired that as well. Having a physical body is problematic. It enables one to do good and evil. So, God prepared this mortal probation for us, where we could temporarily have physical bodies to prove how we would use them. God also gave commandments, instructing us how to use our bodies as well as how to interact with one another... and Him.

Interacting with God is the issue here. Remember, God does not owe us anything. He does however love us and wants to help us but just as we are expected to be constrained by and obey His law, just 'so' does He abide His own law. God only interacts with us through the covenants of His law. If we covenant with Him and abide His law, we can expect His help. If we do not covenant with Him and abide His law, we have no right to expect His help. He does not owe it to us. We are eternal beings whom God is helping, but He will not provide that help if we spurn His laws and go according to our own will. God will not endorse, sanction or otherwise countenance behaviors that go contrary to the covenant and conditions on which His assistance, blessings and help are predicated.

Consider the example of giving money to a wino. You would want to help the man, but are conflicted about whether to give him any money because you don't know how he would use it. If he promises to use it for food, clothing or shelter, you would want to give the needed assistance. But you would naturally want some assurance that food, shelter or clothing will be what the money is used for. You wouldn't want to contribute to the man's taking your assistance and using to further his own destruction and thus making you complicit in it. So, you ask him to come with you (just as God asks that you follow Him) and you will, if he chooses to follow, give him the help he needs. But the choice belongs to the wino. He may choose not to come with you for whatever reason and still, just wants the money. If he refuses to follow you in order to get help, it would be foolish to give him the money. It would be a safe bet that he would use it to buy more wine and die in a gutter somewhere and you would not want to contribute to that.

Now comes the question of individual versus collective help. Why would God allow someone who has lived a good life to suffer because of what goes on in the world? God Himself has set the example for us. Jesus Christ, who is God the Son, but nonetheless God, and because He loves us, suffered physical abuse by those who followed their own will in order to demonstrate to us how we should behave in the face of such abuse. Again, it needs to be remembered that this life is not all there is to existence. We are eternal beings and this life is but a probation and if we endure it well as in the example of Job we will be saved in the kingdom of God.

So still, why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? Another reason (other that that just mentioned above) is so that God's judgments can be just. God will judge the wicked, but wicked is as wicked does. God does not judge according to His foreknowledge. That would be unjust. He judges according to our actions. Therefore, He allows wickedness during this probation so that after we have proven ourselves, His judgments will be just.

It is very important that it be kept in mind that this life is a probation wherein we are to be proved whether or not we will follow God's commands. We have our agency and God will not violate that agency. We have that agency by virtue of the fact that we are eternal beings and not made beings, because a thing made can only do what it was made to do. During this probation, if we collectively violate its conditions, we must collectively suffer the consequences and unfortunately, good people get caught in the crossfire. The thing to remember is the example of Job and of Jesus Christ and endure this probation well.

I actually think you are generalizing all atheist. I definitely disagree.

I guess the primary reason atheist have for rejecting God is that they see all of the horror in the world and ask... why, if God, exists, would He allow it all to happen?

Actually, no. I suffered all my childhood life and I found the blessings in the Mystic Law with which the Buddha and His votary taught. I learned that we need to accept the cycle of birth and death (and suffering in between) because that is life. That doesnt mean we don't want to got suffer. However, in my belief, to strive for a perfect life is imbalance to the very nature of living. It is natural that our bodies struggle to heal. We are born, we grow, we age, we pass on from life to life.

There is no reason to know God when I have a relationship with life itself. God IS life. Why ask for anything more?

A more productive way of seeing this is that some atheists have had terrible experiences with organized religion. They may or may not still belieive in God; and, I wouldn't try to theorize their disbelief because that is natural. To those of us atheist who have revelations that there is no God (or belief) may find no reasoning in what you are saying.

The Buddha shared His teachings to the way each group of people understood them. This is called expedient means. As such, I kind of look to Christians who find other ways to educate atheists (to those who have not had personal experiences (good and bad) with religion), via personal experiences. Change the way they theorize an atheist disbelieif because many do come back to God.

I will write more later, but I wanted to say that your first statement is generalizing all atheists. I hae never thought of suffering as a road block to belief in God.

There ya go.

 

[ether-ore]

You can say God allows it.....He rarely intervenes.

However, God gave Man dominion....all things....
and Man seems to insist on doing so even unto his fellowman.

God allows it?.....yeah.
but there have been moments when things got out of ....Hand....
so we have report of a Flood.
a report of twin cities destroyed.

there is prophecy of greater damnation ahead.

I would not use the notion of crossfire.
It's more like consequence.

Do unto others as you would have it done unto you.
because it will be done unto you as you did unto others.

The only thing I want to respond to here are your comments about the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah as well as the idea that there is indeed greater "damnation" ahead. As I hope was evident in what I said, we are here in mortality on probation. If and when it becomes evident that a people have abjectly failed the test of probation, God removes them from the test facility. This is what happened with the flood and in Sodom and Gomorrah. But this was not the end of those beings who failed. They continue on eternally in whatever condition God places them based on their behavior here on earth. Prophecy tells us that conditions on the earth will be the same as they were in the days of Noah. Except that when Christ returns, there will not be a flood but rather a burning. The righteous will be saved and the wicked will be burned as they exit morality to continue on to where God's judgment places them.

 

[Jumi]

The problem of evil is not one that causes disbelief for me. I could believe in an evil God or one with less morals than me if it were somehow shown to be true, but I couldn't worship such a God.

 

[ether-ore]

Woah, I'll just stop right here to kill this a bit.
The main reason many atheists, that were previously Christian, have left Christianity might be more due to the fact that the Christian God advocates all these various horrible acts, less so than allows them to happen.

When you say "advocates". What event or events are you referring to? Please see my response to "Thief"

That's cool, I guess.

So, this God set us up to fail?
Sounds like something he'd do.

Quite the contrary. He set us up to succeed. Since we are free agents we have the choice to succeed by following God's commands. If we fail, it is our own fault for not following the greater wisdom of God. These bodies are new to us. They take some getting used to. We will make mistakes in using our bodies, but God has prepared a way to compensate for those mistakes if we will abide His laws and that is Christ's atonement. but again... the choice is ours.

Thank you for telling me the rules that God apparently enlightened you upon.
Though, I rather he tell me in person. I defect.

I know... me too. However, God's method has always been to reveal His will through His servants, the prophets. This mortality being a test would be an invalid test if God gave all the answers openly. The test is only valid if what God has revealed to His prophets is taken on faith.

Lol.

I'm not sure how to respond to that, so I'll leave it alone.

Good to know that we are all just pets bound to the subjective will of our overbearing master.

You are either missing or ignoring my point. We are not the first group of beings that God has assisted in their eternal progression. This has been going on for all of eternity without beginning and it will have no end. This is not subjective. It is decidedly objective because the laws which govern this eternal cycle apply to everyone, everywhere in the eternal universe, all of the time... for eternity. God Himself abides these laws. God's work is to bring to pass the eternal life and immortality of man. But God will not force free agents (such as we are) to accept what His gifts. And we will only get what He offers if we do what He says. If an individual decides he does not want it... no problem. But the thing is... even if someone rejects the further blessings of God, they still have more than that with which they started this journey... and they have God to thank for that... and judgment will come knocking.

Have fun with that.

I'm just gonna sit here and do my own thing, couldn't care less about this eternal plight you seem to be caught in.[/QUOTE]
K... your choice.

 

[leibowde84]

I guess the primary reason atheist have for rejecting God is that they see all of the horror in the world and ask... why, if God, exists, would He allow it all to happen?

I offer the following as my point of view and my explanation to the above question. It is a bit long so I hope you will not be bored (those who bother to read it). I expect it to be rejected by most and I can only hope it will benefit some.

First, I think it is necessary to understand our relationship with God... what are we to Him? My answer is that we are eternal beings just as He is, except that we had no capacity or ability other than recognition and desire. We recognized in God a being of beauty and with the capacity to do things, and we desired to be as He is. I think it needs to be understood here that God did not (and does not) owe us anything. He decided to grant us our desire by making us His children and granting our spirits His form. So... we owe Him.

I believe that even after this gift was given, there was still a dissimilarity between us and God. While we were yet spirits (albeit now in the image of God) we still did not have the physical body that God has and we desired that as well. Having a physical body is problematic. It enables one to do good and evil. So, God prepared this mortal probation for us, where we could temporarily have physical bodies to prove how we would use them. God also gave commandments, instructing us how to use our bodies as well as how to interact with one another... and Him.

Interacting with God is the issue here. Remember, God does not owe us anything. He does however love us and wants to help us but just as we are expected to be constrained by and obey His law, just 'so' does He abide His own law. God only interacts with us through the covenants of His law. If we covenant with Him and abide His law, we can expect His help. If we do not covenant with Him and abide His law, we have no right to expect His help. He does not owe it to us. We are eternal beings whom God is helping, but He will not provide that help if we spurn His laws and go according to our own will. God will not endorse, sanction or otherwise countenance behaviors that go contrary to the covenant and conditions on which His assistance, blessings and help are predicated.

Consider the example of giving money to a wino. You would want to help the man, but are conflicted about whether to give him any money because you don't know how he would use it. If he promises to use it for food, clothing or shelter, you would want to give the needed assistance. But you would naturally want some assurance that food, shelter or clothing will be what the money is used for. You wouldn't want to contribute to the man's taking your assistance and using to further his own destruction and thus making you complicit in it. So, you ask him to come with you (just as God asks that you follow Him) and you will, if he chooses to follow, give him the help he needs. But the choice belongs to the wino. He may choose not to come with you for whatever reason and still, just wants the money. If he refuses to follow you in order to get help, it would be foolish to give him the money. It would be a safe bet that he would use it to buy more wine and die in a gutter somewhere and you would not want to contribute to that.

Now comes the question of individual versus collective help. Why would God allow someone who has lived a good life to suffer because of what goes on in the world? God Himself has set the example for us. Jesus Christ, who is God the Son, but nonetheless God, and because He loves us, suffered physical abuse by those who followed their own will in order to demonstrate to us how we should behave in the face of such abuse. Again, it needs to be remembered that this life is not all there is to existence. We are eternal beings and this life is but a probation and if we endure it well as in the example of Job we will be saved in the kingdom of God.

So still, why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? Another reason (other that that just mentioned above) is so that God's judgments can be just. God will judge the wicked, but wicked is as wicked does. God does not judge according to His foreknowledge. That would be unjust. He judges according to our actions. Therefore, He allows wickedness during this probation so that after we have proven ourselves, His judgments will be just.

It is very important that it be kept in mind that this life is a probation wherein we are to be proved whether or not we will follow God's commands. We have our agency and God will not violate that agency. We have that agency by virtue of the fact that we are eternal beings and not made beings, because a thing made can only do what it was made to do. During this probation, if we collectively violate its conditions, we must collectively suffer the consequences and unfortunately, good people get caught in the crossfire. The thing to remember is the example of Job and of Jesus Christ and endure this probation well.

I think the main cause for atheism is a lack of verifiable evidence.

 

[YmirGF]

I think the main cause for atheism is a lack of verifiable evidence.

Here I thought it was more the rejection of the claptrap offered up by so many theists.

In the immortal words of Neil Young, "It doesn't mean that much to me, to mean that much to you!"

 

[Baladas]

I guess the primary reason atheist have for rejecting God is that they see all of the horror in the world and ask... why, if God, exists, would He allow it all to happen?

This seems to be one of the main conclusions that Christians come to.
I was just asked if this was my reason last week.

One of the main reasons I am not a Christian is that there is simply no objective reason to assume that it is the true path to the exclusion of all others.
I'm not really interested in a full-on debate here, I just wanted to let you know that this is not my reason.

Also, in my view, suffering is simply a part of life.
The good comes with the bad, the bad with the good.

I am 26-years-old and I suffer from severe osteoarthritis in my middle back, and throughout much of my body.
I was born with a genetic tissue disorder called Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome which causes me to be literally in constant pain in nearly every joint in my body.

My pain started around the age of six, and has steadily worsened since.

As I gimp around with my cane, I don't wonder why I was born this way.
I don't curse God under my breath.
I don't resent God.
I no longer pray for it to end either.

Despite my own situation seeming overwhelming at times, I know that there are many who are much worse off than I am.
What if I were born in a third-world country? What if my illness was terminal, or at least worse?
I am a lucky man.

It is what it is, and I make due.
I don't need my suffering, or that of anyone else to make sense in an ultimate way.
I just do what I can to relieve my own suffering, and that of others.

 

[suncowiam]

God takes all the glory when good happens but if something bad happens, oh no... It can't be God's fault. Maybe it's the devil? Yes, it must be the devil.

So my logical conclusion, is that God and the Devil are the same all powerful being.

Or there is no God, and crap happens.

 

[ether-ore]

I think the main cause for atheism is a lack of verifiable evidence.

Yes, there is that. I merely considered to reason I gave as 'one' of the reasons there are and so I attempted to explain that one. The reason you give is indeed a bit more difficult to deal with. As you may have read in other places, my usual response to that argument is that the existence of God has been verified by the first hand witness of several prophets over the millennia, corroborating what the other prophets have said. So, what you are really saying is that it hasn't been verified to each and every individual on earth personally and as a consequence, people are not inclined to accept the word of the several prophets.

I offer as the reason that it has not been verified for each and every individual is that this existence is a test to see if we will voluntarily choose to keep God's commands without personally being told to do so. All of the prophets have said the same thing with regard to what God expects of us in terms of our personal behavior and our treatment of one another. So, as it is with any test, the answers are not given until after the test is over. For God to do so would invalidate the test.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

I guess the primary reason atheist have for rejecting God is that they see all of the horror in the world and ask... why,

Maybe some do the calculation an declare Hey you know what imho Hiroshima was not worth it.
My moments of Glory are not worth their suffering ..

 

[ether-ore]

This seems to be one of the main conclusions that Christians come to.
I was just asked if this was my reason last week.

One of the main reasons I am not a Christian is that there is simply no objective reason to assume that it is the true path to the exclusion of all others.
I'm not really interested in a full-on debate here, I just wanted to let you know that this is not my reason.

Also, in my view, suffering is simply a part of life.
The good comes with the bad, the bad with the good.

I am 26-years-old and I suffer from severe osteoarthritis in my middle back, and throughout much of my body.
I was born with a genetic tissue disorder called Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome which causes me to be literally in constant pain in nearly every joint in my body.

My pain started around the age of six, and has steadily worsened since.

As I gimp around with my cane, I don't wonder why I was born this way.
I don't curse God under my breath.
I don't resent God.
I no longer pray for it to end either.

Despite my own situation seeming overwhelming at times, I know that there are many who are much worse off than I am.
What if I were born in a third-world country? What if my illness was terminal, or at least worse?
I am a lucky man.

It is what it is, and I make due.
I don't need my suffering, or that of anyone else to make sense in an ultimate way.
I just do what I can to relieve my own suffering, and that of others.

May I say that I admire your grit. I realize I do not have it as bad as you, but I do have health issues as well and I too must endure. Not for purposes of comparison, but just to let you know that on some small level I can relate. I too have arthritis... in my hips. I deal with pain there and have to use a cane. I am diabetic. I have complete kidney failure and I'm on dialysis. When I am feeling low, I read the Book of Job, or the passion of the Christ and I realize, this is only temporary and if I endure it well, God will grant me a glorious resurrection. Anyway, it works for me.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes, there is that. I merely considered to reason I gave as 'one' of the reasons there are and so I attempted to explain that one. The reason you give is indeed a bit more difficult to deal with. As you may have read in other places, my usual response to that argument is that the existence of God has been verified by the first hand witness of several prophets over the millennia, corroborating what the other prophets have said. So, what you are really saying is that it hasn't been verified to each and every individual on earth personally and as a consequence, people are not inclined to accept the word of the several prophets.

I offer as the reason that it has not been verified for each and every individual is that this existence is a test to see if we will voluntarily choose to keep God's commands without personally being told to do so. All of the prophets have said the same thing with regard to what God expects of us in terms of our personal behavior and our treatment of one another. So, as it is with any test, the answers are not given until after the test is over. For God to do so would invalidate the test.

You are half right. I think atheists don't see any valid reason to believe the words of the prophets without verifiable evidence substantiating their accounts. Because of this, they fail to see any reason why they would gain something or escape damnation by jumping to any conclusions.

 

[Baladas]

May I say that I admire your grit. I realize I do not have it as bad as you, but I do have health issues as well and I too must endure. Not for purposes of comparison, but just to let you know that on some small level I can relate. I too have arthritis... in my hips. I deal with pain there and have to use a cane. I am diabetic. I have complete kidney failure and I'm on dialysis. When I am feeling low, I read the Book of Job, or the passion of the Christ and I realize, this is only temporary and if I endure it well, God will grant me a glorious resurrection. Anyway, it works for me.

Well, I am definitely sorry to hear that you are dealing with all of that.
Having never been through kidney failure/dialysis, I can't really imagine what that is like. I know it must be extremely difficult.
I'm glad that you have found something that gives you hope and strength.

 

[Milton Platt]

I guess the primary reason atheist have for rejecting God is that they see all of the horror in the world and ask... why, if God, exists, would He allow it all to happen?

I offer the following as my point of view and my explanation to the above question. It is a bit long so I hope you will not be bored (those who bother to read it). I expect it to be rejected by most and I can only hope it will benefit some.

First, I think it is necessary to understand our relationship with God... what are we to Him? My answer is that we are eternal beings just as He is, except that we had no capacity or ability other than recognition and desire. We recognized in God a being of beauty and with the capacity to do things, and we desired to be as He is. I think it needs to be understood here that God did not (and does not) owe us anything. He decided to grant us our desire by making us His children and granting our spirits His form. So... we owe Him.

I believe that even after this gift was given, there was still a dissimilarity between us and God. While we were yet spirits (albeit now in the image of God) we still did not have the physical body that God has and we desired that as well. Having a physical body is problematic. It enables one to do good and evil. So, God prepared this mortal probation for us, where we could temporarily have physical bodies to prove how we would use them. God also gave commandments, instructing us how to use our bodies as well as how to interact with one another... and Him.

Interacting with God is the issue here. Remember, God does not owe us anything. He does however love us and wants to help us but just as we are expected to be constrained by and obey His law, just 'so' does He abide His own law. God only interacts with us through the covenants of His law. If we covenant with Him and abide His law, we can expect His help. If we do not covenant with Him and abide His law, we have no right to expect His help. He does not owe it to us. We are eternal beings whom God is helping, but He will not provide that help if we spurn His laws and go according to our own will. God will not endorse, sanction or otherwise countenance behaviors that go contrary to the covenant and conditions on which His assistance, blessings and help are predicated.

Consider the example of giving money to a wino. You would want to help the man, but are conflicted about whether to give him any money because you don't know how he would use it. If he promises to use it for food, clothing or shelter, you would want to give the needed assistance. But you would naturally want some assurance that food, shelter or clothing will be what the money is used for. You wouldn't want to contribute to the man's taking your assistance and using to further his own destruction and thus making you complicit in it. So, you ask him to come with you (just as God asks that you follow Him) and you will, if he chooses to follow, give him the help he needs. But the choice belongs to the wino. He may choose not to come with you for whatever reason and still, just wants the money. If he refuses to follow you in order to get help, it would be foolish to give him the money. It would be a safe bet that he would use it to buy more wine and die in a gutter somewhere and you would not want to contribute to that.

Now comes the question of individual versus collective help. Why would God allow someone who has lived a good life to suffer because of what goes on in the world? God Himself has set the example for us. Jesus Christ, who is God the Son, but nonetheless God, and because He loves us, suffered physical abuse by those who followed their own will in order to demonstrate to us how we should behave in the face of such abuse. Again, it needs to be remembered that this life is not all there is to existence. We are eternal beings and this life is but a probation and if we endure it well as in the example of Job we will be saved in the kingdom of God.

So still, why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? Another reason (other that that just mentioned above) is so that God's judgments can be just. God will judge the wicked, but wicked is as wicked does. God does not judge according to His foreknowledge. That would be unjust. He judges according to our actions. Therefore, He allows wickedness during this probation so that after we have proven ourselves, His judgments will be just.

It is very important that it be kept in mind that this life is a probation wherein we are to be proved whether or not we will follow God's commands. We have our agency and God will not violate that agency. We have that agency by virtue of the fact that we are eternal beings and not made beings, because a thing made can only do what it was made to do. During this probation, if we collectively violate its conditions, we must collectively suffer the consequences and unfortunately, good people get caught in the crossfire. The thing to remember is the example of Job and of Jesus Christ and endure this probation well.

Just to have said it.....the reason you list as "primary" for atheism is incorrect. Atheists reject your god for the same reason you reject everyone else's gods. They just don't feel the evidence comes anywhere close to substantiating the claims. The problem of evil is only brought up when you try to assert your particular god is "all loving or "love". It is only an argument that refutes your claim of "all loving".

Your very example about Jesus's sacrifice is a glaring example of the kind of illogical thinking that keeps atheists away from your belief system. Jesus was said to have died for our sins. Two problems......If he died, and he was god, then god died. If god died, who resurrected god? Then there is the issue with blood sacrifice, which is pretty awful in and of itself. Plus, I I think it it is a rather disgusting concept that has someone dying for someone else's transgressions. If my great-great-great-great-etc. grandfather committed a transgression, why should someone else pay for their mistake? If your father commits a murder, are you okay with being hanged for it yourself to satisfy the law???? It's absurd.

So you miss the point right out of the gate by making assumptions about what other people think.

 

[Milton Platt]

You are half right. I think atheists don't see any valid reason to believe the words of the prophets without verifiable evidence substantiating their accounts. Because of this, they fail to see any reason why they would gain something or escape damnation by jumping to any conclusions.

I agree, "prophets" are of no value in determining what is factual. The prophecies are so vague they have been interpreted as having come to pass or will becoming to pass so many times it is laughable. Give me a specific unambiguous event, and a specific date and then we will see.

 

[leibowde84]

I agree, "prophets" are of no value in determining what is factual. The prophecies are so vague they have been interpreted as having come to pass or will becoming to pass so many times it is laughable. Give me a specific unambiguous event, and a specific date and then we will see.

It's like when Larry David said, "If I could draw it, is it really art?"