How God is a God of Love

[ether-ore]

Just to have said it.....the reason you list as "primary" for atheism is incorrect. Atheists reject your god for the same reason you reject everyone else's gods. They just don't feel the evidence comes anywhere close to substantiating the claims. The problem of evil is only brought up when you try to assert your particular god is "all loving or "love". It is only an argument that refutes your claim of "all loving".

Your very example about Jesus's sacrifice is a glaring example of the kind of illogical thinking that keeps atheists away from your belief system. Jesus was said to have died for our sins. Two problems......If he died, and he was god, then god died. If god died, who resurrected god? Then there is the issue with blood sacrifice, which is pretty awful in and of itself. Plus, I I think it it is a rather disgusting concept that has someone dying for someone else's transgressions. If my great-great-great-great-etc. grandfather committed a transgression, why should someone else pay for their mistake? If your father commits a murder, are you okay with being hanged for it yourself to satisfy the law???? It's absurd.

So you miss the point right out of the gate by making assumptions about what other people think.

I accept the correction. I should have said "one of the primary reasons". With regard to comparison to other deities, I can only offer my reasons for choosing mine. All we can know about any deity is what that deity chooses to reveal. We already know that deity cannot be discovered by science. Also, the thing is that all we can know about deity is that it is filtered through a prophet or prophets. Herein in the basis for my choice. Christian scriptures (particularly LDS) have multiple source prophets over millennia, all saying the same thing about God and corroborating one another. I have found other religious text to be single source material with no corroboration and I therefore consider them as not credible.

One other reason I believe in God is that the story I related at the beginning of this thread makes more sense to me than any other explanation I have seen concerning where we come from, why we are here, what our relationship to God is and what will happen to us when we leave mortality. Much is made of 'reason' and let me say that it is reason that tells me that we are not alone in this universe. A great deal of money is spent by many scientists on the SETI program because they believe as I do that we are not the only intelligent life in the universe. The difference between myself and them is that while I believe that among the other intelligences out there, one of them is God, they absolutely deny any remote possibility that it could be God because most, if not all of them, are atheists. So, in my book, they defy reason.

With regard to the "problems" you outlined concerning Christ's atonement: first, I happen to believe something a bit different than most Christians. I believe in God the Father and in his son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. Three separate and distinct beings, but one in purpose. God the Father placed all power regarding this earth and the inhabitants of it in the hands of His Son, Jesus Christ. So, no one can return unto God the Father except through Jesus Christ. Christ created this temporary heaven and earth within the eternal universe and He did all of this before He was born in the flesh... while He was still a spirit. Because of this, He is called the Father of Heaven and Earth (Not the Father of our spirits... that is God the Father). Using the same power over matter that Christ used in the creation (preparing the pre-existing earth for our use) He effected His own demise and His own resurrection. Christ's death on the cross and subsequent resurrection enabled (in terms of justice) for us to be resurrected as well. The payment for our sins was accomplished in the Garden of Gethsemane which saves us from permanent separation from God on condition of repentance.

The reason an atonement was necessary is because we have broken God's laws during this mortality whether we repent or not, and God's law is that no unclean thing can dwell in His presence. We could never pay for our own sins and one person cannot pay for the sins of another. But God Himself can pay for our sins and God the Son... Jesus Christ did just that. God the Father's laws had been violated. Justice demands that a penalty be paid for that violation. God out of His love for us, paid that penalty for us. So, while we cannot be perfect and clean on our own (and therefore could never enter God's kingdom by any effort of our own), we can through repentance be made perfect in Christ Jesus.

As I said in the preamble to the op, I don't expect what I have said to be accepted by most. I just hope it will be beneficial to some... or one.

 

[Thief]

But this was not the end of those beings who failed. They continue on eternally in whatever condition God places them based on their behavior here on earth. The righteous will be saved and the wicked will be burned as they exit morality to continue on to where God's judgment places them.

I suspect the 'burning' is a metaphor left over from burial in the garbage pit......Gehenna.
(and I am aware the various perceptions)
but it is correct to say....a place 'based on behavior'...

you will end up alongside people that think and feel like you do.

How else to be happy?
How else to be fair?

 

[ether-ore]

If one is looking for validity in prophecy, then one need look no further than the return of Israel to the promised land.

 

[ether-ore]

I suspect the 'burning' is a metaphor left over from burial in the garbage pit......Gehenna.
(and I am aware the various perceptions)
but it is correct to say....a place 'based on behavior'...

you will end up alongside people that think and feel like you do.

How else to be happy?
How else to be fair?

While I disagree that the burning is a metaphor, I do agree with the last of what you wrote. "You will end up alongside people that think and feel like you do." That should not (I think) be the goal. We should want to return to our Heavenly Father.

 

[Thief]

While I disagree that the burning is a metaphor, I do agree with the last of what you wrote. "You will end up alongside people that think and feel like you do." That should not (I think) be the goal. We should want to return to our Heavenly Father.

The code is....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

the result is your own doing.

 

[Pudding]

I guess the primary reason atheist have for rejecting God is that they see all of the horror in the world and ask... why, if God, exists, would He allow it all to happen?

I offer the following as my point of view and my explanation to the above question. It is a bit long so I hope you will not be bored (those who bother to read it). I expect it to be rejected by most and I can only hope it will benefit some.

First, I think it is necessary to understand our relationship with God... what are we to Him? My answer is that we are eternal beings just as He is, except that we had no capacity or ability other than recognition and desire. We recognized in God a being of beauty and with the capacity to do things, and we desired to be as He is. I think it needs to be understood here that God did not (and does not) owe us anything. He decided to grant us our desire by making us His children and granting our spirits His form. So... we owe Him.

I believe that even after this gift was given, there was still a dissimilarity between us and God. While we were yet spirits (albeit now in the image of God) we still did not have the physical body that God has and we desired that as well. Having a physical body is problematic. It enables one to do good and evil. So, God prepared this mortal probation for us, where we could temporarily have physical bodies to prove how we would use them. God also gave commandments, instructing us how to use our bodies as well as how to interact with one another... and Him.

Interacting with God is the issue here. Remember, God does not owe us anything. He does however love us and wants to help us but just as we are expected to be constrained by and obey His law, just 'so' does He abide His own law. God only interacts with us through the covenants of His law. If we covenant with Him and abide His law, we can expect His help. If we do not covenant with Him and abide His law, we have no right to expect His help. He does not owe it to us. We are eternal beings whom God is helping, but He will not provide that help if we spurn His laws and go according to our own will. God will not endorse, sanction or otherwise countenance behaviors that go contrary to the covenant and conditions on which His assistance, blessings and help are predicated.

Consider the example of giving money to a wino. You would want to help the man, but are conflicted about whether to give him any money because you don't know how he would use it. If he promises to use it for food, clothing or shelter, you would want to give the needed assistance. But you would naturally want some assurance that food, shelter or clothing will be what the money is used for. You wouldn't want to contribute to the man's taking your assistance and using to further his own destruction and thus making you complicit in it. So, you ask him to come with you (just as God asks that you follow Him) and you will, if he chooses to follow, give him the help he needs. But the choice belongs to the wino. He may choose not to come with you for whatever reason and still, just wants the money. If he refuses to follow you in order to get help, it would be foolish to give him the money. It would be a safe bet that he would use it to buy more wine and die in a gutter somewhere and you would not want to contribute to that.

Your above argument can be equally apply to any other religion's God, which this argument doesn't prove the existence of any religion's God.

Now comes the question of individual versus collective help. Why would God allow someone who has lived a good life to suffer because of what goes on in the world? God Himself has set the example for us. Jesus Christ, who is God the Son, but nonetheless God, and because He loves us, suffered physical abuse by those who followed their own will in order to demonstrate to us how we should behave in the face of such abuse. Again, it needs to be remembered that this life is not all there is to existence. We are eternal beings and this life is but a probation and if we endure it well as in the example of Job we will be saved in the kingdom of God.

Your claims will be unsubstantiated until you've substantiate it.

So still, why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? Another reason (other that that just mentioned above) is so that God's judgments can be just. God will judge the wicked, but wicked is as wicked does. God does not judge according to His foreknowledge. That would be unjust. He judges according to our actions. Therefore, He allows wickedness during this probation so that after we have proven ourselves, His judgments will be just.

It is very important that it be kept in mind that this life is a probation wherein we are to be proved whether or not we will follow God's commands. We have our agency and God will not violate that agency. We have that agency by virtue of the fact that we are eternal beings and not made beings, because a thing made can only do what it was made to do. During this probation, if we collectively violate its conditions, we must collectively suffer the consequences and unfortunately, good people get caught in the crossfire. The thing to remember is the example of Job and of Jesus Christ and endure this probation well.

Your argument can be still equally apply to any other religion's God, just with different God/prophet and different story.

 

[ether-ore]

The code is....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

the result is your own doing.

Very true. But that is not the whole story. Repentance is required, but so are a couple of minimal ordinances as is mentioned in John 3:5; Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus: "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost are also required after repentance.

 

[JoStories]

First, I think it is necessary to understand our relationship with God... what are we to Him? My answer is that we are eternal beings just as He is, except that we had no capacity or ability other than recognition and desire. We recognized in God a being of beauty and with the capacity to do things, and we desired to be as He is. I think it needs to be understood here that God did not (and does not) owe us anything. He decided to grant us our desire by making us His children and granting our spirits His form. So... we owe Him.

I have to disagree here. In my path with God, there is no need of owing anyone or anything. What we need do is strive toward enlightenment. The idea of being children to God is unique to the monotheistic faiths and one I do not hold to. Instead, IMO, we are all higher souls trying to understand God. Think of the Sephirot of the Jewish Tree of Life (disambiguation). We start at the bottom and try to move up to the higher levels, although admittedly, this is only a comparison and not meant to infer that I hold to that Kabbalahistic belief. I never understand that idea of God being a father and Jesus being a son as it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

[Deathbydefault]

When you say "advocates". What event or events are you referring to? Please see my response to "Thief"

Click Here

Quite the contrary. He set us up to succeed. Since we are free agents we have the choice to succeed by following God's commands. If we fail, it is our own fault for not following the greater wisdom of God. These bodies are new to us. They take some getting used to. We will make mistakes in using our bodies, but God has prepared a way to compensate for those mistakes if we will abide His laws and that is Christ's atonement. but again... the choice is ours.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

You are either missing or ignoring my point. We are not the first group of beings that God has assisted in their eternal progression. This has been going on for all of eternity without beginning and it will have no end. This is not subjective. It is decidedly objective because the laws which govern this eternal cycle apply to everyone, everywhere in the eternal universe, all of the time... for eternity. God Himself abides these laws. God's work is to bring to pass the eternal life and immortality of man. But God will not force free agents (such as we are) to accept what His gifts. And we will only get what He offers if we do what He says. If an individual decides he does not want it... no problem. But the thing is... even if someone rejects the further blessings of God, they still have more than that with which they started this journey... and they have God to thank for that... and judgment will come knocking.

Irrelevant.
God has apparently set a moral standard for himself and is forcing us to follow it.
If we do, we go somewhere happy... If not...

My previous comment still stands.

 

[ether-ore]

Click Here







Whatever helps you sleep at night.



Irrelevant.
God has apparently set a moral standard for himself and is forcing us to follow it.
If we do, we go somewhere happy... If not...

My previous comment still stands.

Not that it matters to you, but all of what your friend in his web site says, stems from a temporal point of view rather than an eternal one. What God sanctions on this earth has to do with the original purpose of the earth. With the point of view that this mortality is all there is, your friend is purposefully wishing to look at what God does as unfair. From an eternal perspective where we are eternal beings whom God is granting a temporary opportunity to prove ourselves in mortality, it is justice. We have no right to this mortality. It is a conditional gift from God. If we violate those conditions, God is just in removing us from the earth.

We are here to be tested; to prove whether or not we will keep God's commandments. If we prove that we will not keep God's commandments and have refused every opportunity to repent, then we have failed the test and there is no more reason for us to remain here. Your friend deliberately wishes to suggest that this life is all there is and that when it is over, it's over.

There exists a logical break here. In a scenario where this life is all there is, God is a non-sequitur. It would be illogical to evoke God and blame Him for anything in a scenario where it is not possible for Him to exist. But then that is the real desire here, isn't it? An attempt to disprove God by saying He did something when He doesn't exist. Do you not see the logical break?

With an eternal perspective, God is taking those who have failed the test home to Himself. This life is not the end all, be all of existence and God does only that which is just. So, it is a matter of perspective. You and your friend arbitrarily choose to have this perspective contrary to reason.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Not that it matters to you, but all of what your friend in his web site says, stems from a temporal point of view rather than an eternal one.

Which makes it more honest.

What God sanctions on this earth has to do with the original purpose of the earth. With the point of view that this mortality is all there is, your friend is purposefully wishing to look at what God does as unfair.

Do you ever read what you say before you post it?
Strawman.

From an eternal perspective where we are eternal beings whom God is granting a temporary opportunity to prove ourselves in mortality, it is justice. We have no right to this mortality. It is a conditional gift from God. If we violate those conditions, God is just in removing us from the earth.

Okay, that still doesn't make his morals any less subjective.

Your friend deliberately wishes to suggest that this life is all there is and that when it is over, it's over.

But then that is the real desire here, isn't it? An attempt to disprove God by saying He did something when He doesn't exist.

You and your friend arbitrarily choose to have this perspective contrary to reason.

Strawman. Strawman. Strawman.

On the the fist quote, please provide evidence for this claim.
Otherwise it is simply a baseless suggestion.

On the second, I will tell you now that I debate these topics for two reasons.

1) I wish to develop my opinion on such subjects, or have my world view swayed.
I am currently in a hard atheist world view with an apatheistic side-view.
The only reason for that is because it is what logically makes sense.

2) It's entertaining to me.
Debates are an enjoyable activity, all the better when I beat someone at their own game.

On the third, that website isn't run by a friend, it is one of many.
Just the first one I found in a basic google search.
Those passages are from the bible, they are proof for my point.

You can try and misconstrue my argument all you like, it does nothing to the validity.

And, lastly, if we are talking about reason then might I point out that you believe in a magical super being that controls and creates all life?

 

[Pudding]

No, you should only believe in my religion's God but not your religion's God.
Only my religion's God is the true God.
My God will not force you to accept His gifts. And you'll only get what He offers if you do what He says. If an individual decides he does not want it... no problem. But the thing is... even if someone rejects the further blessings of my God, they still have more than that with which they started this journey... and they have my God to thank for that... and judgment will come knocking.

Religion a/b/c...etc: My God A/B/C...etc will not force anyone to accept His gifts. And anyone will only get what He offers if they do what He says. If an individual decides he does not want it... no problem. But the thing is... even if someone rejects the further blessings of my God A/B/C...etc, they still have more than that with which they started this journey... and they have my God A/B/C...etc to thank for that... and judgment will come knocking.

Religion a: Everyone should only follow my religion's God A, else judgment will come knocking.
Religion b: Everyone should only follow my religion's God B, else judgment will come knocking.
Religion c: Everyone should only follow my religion's God C, else judgment will come knocking.
Religion d/e/f...etc: Everyone should only follow my religion's God D/E/F...etc, else judgment will come knocking.

Non-believer: Which religion's God is the true God? Which religion's God should i follow?
Religion a/b/c...etc: Only my religion's God A/B/C...etc is the true God. You should only follow my religion's God A/B/C...etc, else judgment will come knocking.

Non-believer: I actually don't believe in any religion's God, just an assumption what if i choose to believe in and follow God A?
Religion a: If you do so, then my God A will reward you in your afterlife.
Religion b/c/d...etc: If you do so, then my God B/C/D...etc's judgment will come knocking.

Non-believer: Just an assumption what if i choose to believe in and follow God B?
Religion b: If you do so, then my God B will reward you in your afterlife.
Religion a/c/d...etc: If you do so, then my God A/C/D...etc's judgment will come knocking.

Non-believer: Just an assumption what if i choose to believe in and follow God C?
Religion c: If you do so, then my God C will reward you in your afterlife.
Religion a/b/d...etc: If you do so, then my God A/B/D...etc's judgment will come knocking.

Non-believer: I've only one life to choose only one religion's God to follow, which religion's God should i follow?
Religion a/b/c...etc: You should choose to follow my religion's God A/B/C...etc as only my religion's God A/B/C...etc is the true God. If you don't believe in and don't follow my religion's God A/B/C...etc, then judgment will come knocking.
...

(note that not all religion group is this exclusive to their religion's God(s) nor have this exclusive claims as the same in the above example)

edit

 

[viole]

I guess the primary reason atheist have for rejecting God is that they see all of the horror in the world and ask... why, if God, exists, would He allow it all to happen?

I offer the following as my point of view and my explanation to the above question. It is a bit long so I hope you will not be bored (those who bother to read it). I expect it to be rejected by most and I can only hope it will benefit some.

First, I think it is necessary to understand our relationship with God... what are we to Him? My answer is that we are eternal beings just as He is, except that we had no capacity or ability other than recognition and desire. We recognized in God a being of beauty and with the capacity to do things, and we desired to be as He is. I think it needs to be understood here that God did not (and does not) owe us anything. He decided to grant us our desire by making us His children and granting our spirits His form. So... we owe Him.

I believe that even after this gift was given, there was still a dissimilarity between us and God. While we were yet spirits (albeit now in the image of God) we still did not have the physical body that God has and we desired that as well. Having a physical body is problematic. It enables one to do good and evil. So, God prepared this mortal probation for us, where we could temporarily have physical bodies to prove how we would use them. God also gave commandments, instructing us how to use our bodies as well as how to interact with one another... and Him.

Interacting with God is the issue here. Remember, God does not owe us anything. He does however love us and wants to help us but just as we are expected to be constrained by and obey His law, just 'so' does He abide His own law. God only interacts with us through the covenants of His law. If we covenant with Him and abide His law, we can expect His help. If we do not covenant with Him and abide His law, we have no right to expect His help. He does not owe it to us. We are eternal beings whom God is helping, but He will not provide that help if we spurn His laws and go according to our own will. God will not endorse, sanction or otherwise countenance behaviors that go contrary to the covenant and conditions on which His assistance, blessings and help are predicated.

Consider the example of giving money to a wino. You would want to help the man, but are conflicted about whether to give him any money because you don't know how he would use it. If he promises to use it for food, clothing or shelter, you would want to give the needed assistance. But you would naturally want some assurance that food, shelter or clothing will be what the money is used for. You wouldn't want to contribute to the man's taking your assistance and using to further his own destruction and thus making you complicit in it. So, you ask him to come with you (just as God asks that you follow Him) and you will, if he chooses to follow, give him the help he needs. But the choice belongs to the wino. He may choose not to come with you for whatever reason and still, just wants the money. If he refuses to follow you in order to get help, it would be foolish to give him the money. It would be a safe bet that he would use it to buy more wine and die in a gutter somewhere and you would not want to contribute to that.

Now comes the question of individual versus collective help. Why would God allow someone who has lived a good life to suffer because of what goes on in the world? God Himself has set the example for us. Jesus Christ, who is God the Son, but nonetheless God, and because He loves us, suffered physical abuse by those who followed their own will in order to demonstrate to us how we should behave in the face of such abuse. Again, it needs to be remembered that this life is not all there is to existence. We are eternal beings and this life is but a probation and if we endure it well as in the example of Job we will be saved in the kingdom of God.

So still, why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? Another reason (other that that just mentioned above) is so that God's judgments can be just. God will judge the wicked, but wicked is as wicked does. God does not judge according to His foreknowledge. That would be unjust. He judges according to our actions. Therefore, He allows wickedness during this probation so that after we have proven ourselves, His judgments will be just.

It is very important that it be kept in mind that this life is a probation wherein we are to be proved whether or not we will follow God's commands. We have our agency and God will not violate that agency. We have that agency by virtue of the fact that we are eternal beings and not made beings, because a thing made can only do what it was made to do. During this probation, if we collectively violate its conditions, we must collectively suffer the consequences and unfortunately, good people get caught in the crossfire. The thing to remember is the example of Job and of Jesus Christ and endure this probation well.

All your musings about our agency should fall apart after a visit at the oncological department for kids in a hospital.

What have those unlucky kids done to deserve a painful death by cancer? And if your defense is that they will go to Heaven, then what have those lucky kids done to deserve such a risk free ticket to eternal bliss?

Ciao

- viole

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I like that the Mormon Church at least made an attempt to explain why we're here. It's such a shame that their explanation resorts to putting all the blame on us while giving God all the credit.

Seriously, how ethical is it to insist we should be beholden to an agreement we don't remember making and can only fulfil that by joining your church?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I used to think it was puzzling how so many people could believe in the existence of things which were clearly, internally, logically inconsistent. Then, I learned that logical consistency wasn't of particular concern to a great many people.