How good is good enough to get to Heaven?

[Muffled]

Can you, hypothetically, describe a perspective in which infinite torture is compatible with compassion?

The greater the sin, the greater the need. For instance one would not incarcerate a person for life for spitting on the sidewalk because al that person needs is a fine and a good admonishment but a murderer can be put in jail for life because he needs to see how valuable life is. However I beleive a life sentence is an unjust sentence because a death sentence means the person can start a new free life but a life sentence doesn't allow that.

 

[Muffled]

That's fine, but you must have missed my previous post about Hell. I believe your afterlife will contain a Hell and perhaps you'll get to have a nice perfectly detailed copy of me to torture to your heart's content. But it won't be me no matter what you believe. It will just be you. Torturing someone. Have fun with that.

From my point of view, neither of these things could possibly offend God in any way. Let alone offend him so much as to prepare any sort of afterlife repercussions expressly to demonstrate to you how displeased he is that you copulated with another human and/or ate a gross animal. To me, God is concerned with the life on this planet as a whole. From what I can tell God intends for that life to continue growing and improving itself. As long as that is happening (and it is), then God probably doesn't give a moments thought for any of us. Why would it? Everything is going as planned. God is not my buddy. God is not my daddy. God is something else entirely. If you want to know what God wants, look at what life is doing. That's what God wants life to do. Otherwise God would put a stop to it. The one's who care about these sorts of things are US. Because WE are the one's being wronged. WE are the one's assigning sin. That's why I do not subscribe to such a notion. What I know is that I will do exactly what I intend to do without considering God's opinion on the matter. I notice a fair number of my fellow humans act the same way regardless of professed belief or lack thereof. I also notice that any time 'sin' is applied by any human it seems to fall right in line with the same thing. What they personally would or wouldn't do. Or, its something they do in secret and feel guilty about. That happens a lot too. Totally different subject, though.

Anyway, for me and the view of God that I have defining something as sinful would be nothing more than my arbitrary assignment of God's favor to my own personal views of right and wrong. And that is exactly how I see it coming from anyone else as well, since I obviously don't believe in your God.

I limit my posts to three so I won't upset the staff so it may be that I had other things to talk about.

I am amused that you have constructed your own little fantasy scenario for me but the truth is that I will not be going to Hell and my conscience is clear so I won't be carrying my own version with me. I don't torture people in reality or fantasy.

I believe that is obvious from your views which don't reflect the views of God.

 

[Muffled]

Wait... so the people who use protection while committing "sexual sins" are acting wisely and therefore unlikely to be sinners?

I believe the concept that God probitis ceratin activities because of a particular consequence does not cover the whole concept of sin. So even if a person can avoid some obvious consequences the person is still sinning. I believe how a person knows whether taking away a major consequence changes God's attittude towards the act, can't be gleaned from existing scripture but must come by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Titanic]

Bekind Rewind!

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

You need to be Mother Teresa good enough to get to heaven ;-)

 

[1robin]

You need to be Mother Teresa good enough to get to heaven ;-)

Even she (as good as she was) failed miserably to meet the standard and would probably be the first to admit it.

New International Version (©2011)
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

 

[Madhuri]

There is no parallel in Hinduism nor any other culture.

Being a Superpower doesn't mean the nation's religion is true or false. Having bigger and stronger armies and conquering other people's lands makes no conclusions about a religion imo.

You consider that because Hinduism does not push itself on others, that this is a liability. Perhaps if Christians did not force conversion, it would not have survived. But Hinduism has survived for thousands of years despite the attempts by Muslims and Christians to completely wipe us off the map and despite not trying to proselytise. We can each make our individual conclusions about the reasons for this and whether it is a good or bad thing.

I think we should stop this discussion though. It generally takes a lot for me to feel offended but I find you lack of respect quite offensive.

 

[1robin]

Being a Superpower doesn't mean the nation's religion is true or false. Having bigger and stronger armies and conquering other people's lands makes no conclusions about a religion imo.

If that were the sum total of the difference no it would not. However sucess and prosperity are logical associations with correct theology. If a nationed worshiped X and that nation was and had been poverty stricken for vast amounts of time and repeatedly taken over, constantly involved in civil strife, and containing a diabolical class system I would certainly question the validity of X.

You consider that because Hinduism does not push itself on others, that this is a liability.

And you claissify enduring hardships no other faith does on a coparitive level to give truth to those lost and pushing something. It is all in the vocabulary. Let me put it another way. If India found a cure for cancer but hid it and only used it on the folks it agreed with or instead if Britian invented the cure but made it available to all at it's own expense then which side is acting more compassionitly and which side is claiming England is pushimng it's mean old cure on others?

Perhaps if Christians did not force conversion,

That is not even possibel. One very profound example of this is when the sincere Catholic but more devoted greedy hunter of Gold invaded Mexico. He stopped the idiots there from cutting each others hearts out but he was attempting to force conversions. His priest (Cabbot) told him that it was impossible to force faith and one of the most driven and relentless conquistadors in history agreed and the practice was stopped. In fact the Conquest of S American is the only known case where a conquest was stopped for theological reasons. Even if forced conversion was common you might as well complain about forcing the Aztecs to stop cuttin hearts out of thousands a day or to stop forcing the Indians to abandon their diabolical caste system however it is very uncommon.

it would not have survived.

Where are you getting this stuff. Christianity has been opposed by the most powerfull empires in history and being that a real God was at it's foundation it instead converted the empires. That has happened several times and completely dissproves your claim. In fact the very act the inagurated the faith was the death of it's leader not the forced conversion of anyone.

But Hinduism has survived for thousands of years despite the attempts by Muslims and Christians to completely wipe us off the map and despite not trying to proselytise.

No Christian nation has ever attempted to destroy India. In fact they have saved India on a few occasions and India almost self destructed when the last Christian nation was ejected from it. Hinduism survived in India mainly because most of it's history India was very isolated from other huge religous systems and it was very tight culturally. Culture and geography not truth made Hinduism endure. Christianity has spread to every nation on Earth (without any significant force) in less than half the time Hinduism has spent relativly isolated.

We can each make our individual conclusions about the reasons for this and whether it is a good or bad thing.

I think you have.

I think we should stop this discussion though. It generally takes a lot for me to feel offended but I find you lack of respect quite offensive.

I have never respected what I thought to be false. I will however not add to this beyond this point unless you do so as per your request.

 

[1robin]

Can you, hypothetically, describe a perspective in which infinite torture is compatible with compassion?

I assume you are describing what you believe hell to be. Can you provide the evidence that proves this to be the literal case for what Hell actually is.

 

[Sir Doom]

I am amused that you have constructed your own little fantasy scenario for me but the truth is that I will not be going to Hell and my conscience is clear so I won't be carrying my own version with me. I don't torture people in reality or fantasy.

Glad to hear it. Are you sure you won't just pop in to Hell from time to time to make sure a few choice people managed to get there? What's the point of having it at all if you never visit?

I believe that is obvious from your views which don't reflect the views of God.

That's why I said, "...obviously..."

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Even she (as good as she was) failed miserably to meet the standard and would probably be the first to admit it.

The standard ? God is a cold hearted,murderer.
Created an enviroment in which one sentient devours another .
Hope i get to heaven as i for one will reject it .
How dare he make me witness to suffering on earth .

 

[1robin]

The standard ? God is a cold hearted,murderer.
Created an enviroment in which one sentient devours another .
Hope i get to heaven as i for one will reject it .
How dare he make me witness to suffering on earth .

Well this certainly gave me a laugh with it's absurdly extreme tone and I will respond, but am out of time today. I will get back on it tomorrow but have a couple questions first if all right.

1. What are the trees saying?
2. What did any of this have to do with the statement you responded to?

I will address them anyway but can't now.
Later,

 

[robo]

If Heaven is real then God must have some standard of imperfection that one must meet if they are to reach the pearly gates or else we are all destined to burn. What is that standard?

Worshipping Him correctly.

Hitler on his deathbed could have entered heaven if he had chosen to truly accept Allah/Yahweh/Vishnu/FSM/Thor as the one TRUE God to the exclusion of all other.

So, no standards exist of what you have done in your life to reach the pearly gates. It is the last second/millisecond/microsecond/nanosecond of your life that counts.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I don't know. This whole thread seems to be based on a misconception.

For us, seeking individual salvation is an unworthy goal. As an eighth century Muslim poetess put it:

If I love Thee in fear of hell,
May I burn in hell.
If I love Thee in hope of Heaven,
Bar me from Heaven.
But if I love Thee for Thine own sake,
Deprive me not of the Beauty of Thy Face.

Or as the Bab put it:

“That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.”

―(Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)

"So worship God that if the recompense of thy worship of Him were to be the Fire, no alteration in thy worship of Him would be produced. If you worship from fear, that is unworthy of the threshold of the holiness of God.… So also, if your gaze is on Paradise, and if you worship in hope of that; for then you have made God’s creation a Partner with Him."
―The Bayan

Peace,

Bruce

 

[1robin]

The standard ? God is a cold hearted,murderer.
Created an enviroment in which one sentient devours another .
Hope i get to heaven as i for one will reject it .
How dare he make me witness to suffering on earth .

First please answer my questions in my previous post to you and then explain where in the world you get any of these claims from, and then I will respond.

 

[1robin]

I don't know. This whole thread seems to be based on a misconception.

For us, seeking individual salvation is an unworthy goal. As an eighth century Muslim poetess put it:

If I love Thee in fear of hell,
May I burn in hell.
If I love Thee in hope of Heaven,
Bar me from Heaven.
But if I love Thee for Thine own sake,
Deprive me not of the Beauty of Thy Face.

Or as the Bab put it:

“That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.”

―(Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)

"So worship God that if the recompense of thy worship of Him were to be the Fire, no alteration in thy worship of Him would be produced. If you worship from fear, that is unworthy of the threshold of the holiness of God.… So also, if your gaze is on Paradise, and if you worship in hope of that; for then you have made God’s creation a Partner with Him."
―The Bayan

Peace,

Bruce

I will not comment on the inspiration but that is good poetry.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Well this certainly gave me a laugh with it's absurdly extreme tone and I will respond, but am out of time today. I will get back on it tomorrow but have a couple questions first if all right.

1. What are the trees saying?
2. What did any of this have to do with the statement you responded to?

I will address them anyway but can't now.
Later,

1 The suffering of one makes the whole exercise worthless .
2 You claimed there is a standard one must adhere to , and that the individual i mentioned
failed miserably ! When in reality she did more of Gods work in a single day than you or i will ever do in a life time.
I then went on to add my own feelings and thoughts.
And yes as i have witnessed the suffering of one i will reject heaven.

 

[Madhuri]

Robin, Hindus don't 'hide' their religion. The fact that we don't try to conquer other nations and force our religion and laws onto others doesn't mean we stop people from learning about our culture and beliefs. You will find that there are non-Indian Hindus like myself all over the world and that there is plenty of evidence to show that Hinduism existed in other parts of the world a long time ago.

I already said my piece about the caste system. If you want to learn more, please feel free to ask the Hindus on this forum. The Hindu group here at RF are made of those from a variety of Hindu denominations and yet not a single one will argue that caste system is integral to Hinduism or that it has any scriptural basis. All will argue that it is purely a cultural phenomenon that has existed for a particular period of time, just as social hierarchies have existed in other nations for various periods of time, and that it will doubtlessly cease to exist one day while Hindu religion carries on.

Otherwise, thank you for accepting my choice to end our debate. Perhaps in future we can create a new thread to debate in instead of derailing an existing one.

 

[Cordoba]

There are 2 main conditions to get to Heaven:

1- To believe in God, and not associate anything or any being with Him in worship

2- To follow His Guidance: avoid major sins and to do good deeds in this life

He is a Merciful God, and He forgives those who seek His forgiveness for their sins and mistakes.

He created us for His Mercy, and He wants all His creation to go to Heaven.

He gave us free will, and He allows us the choice which path to take

 

[Blackdog22]

Worshipping Him correctly.

Hitler on his deathbed could have entered heaven if he had chosen to truly accept Allah/Yahweh/Vishnu/FSM/Thor as the one TRUE God to the exclusion of all other.

So, no standards exist of what you have done in your life to reach the pearly gates. It is the last second/millisecond/microsecond/nanosecond of your life that counts.

Yeah, this is one of the first problems I had with my Christian faith. My Aunt ,for example, was gay for most of her life, but then about 4 years ago she decided to become a Christian and was so happy that she finally had a change of heart and truly believed in God so that she could get into heaven. Of course the problem is had she been born in a different time, gotten shot, had a stroke, or died from a bloodclot (which almost happened) during her gay years, then she would of died strong in her belief that being gay was fine and be condemned to hell.

This reliance on luck in where one is born, how long one is alive and how one exits life comes across as absurd when it relates to your eternal soul.


Note: I realize some Christians don't believe gays will go to hell, in which case you can fill in _____ with whatever you wish that would condemn a person to hell.