How human and how divine Jesus was

[Estro Felino]

This thread is for analyzing the real human experience of Jesus, who, for us Christians, is God incarnate.
That is, he is the emblem of what God would do, if he were put into a mortal and material body.

My question is: how do you think Jesus lived his life? Did he choose to be chaste and to resist temptations like gluttony?
I am talking about the period before he turned 33, and so, before he started to preach Christianity.

 

[Estro Felino]

When people think of Jesus as a person different than us, I can't do but laugh out loud.
There is absolutely no difference between God and men. They are the same thing.
So Jesus was not gifted with "special powers" which enabled him to resist to temptations and to be infinitely good and altruistic. He chose , with his freewill, to be like that.

Besides, Christianity is not about sex. It is about altruism. It is very very probable that, before turning 33, he fell in love with some girl and had sex with them.
What's wrong with that? If you ask me, he must have been a very handsome man, and I'm sure that he had a much more satisfying and intense sexual life than mine.

Chastity is not a virtue. All that matters is goodness and altruism. And he chose, with his free will, to be infinitely good.

 

[Phil25]

Well, Isaiah 53:2 says, “He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to Him, nothing in His appearance that we should desire Him.”

Popular Mechanics says Jesus might have looked like this,

Well, I dont think he resembled anything like modern depiction of Jesus. Its too Northern European type of look.

Anyway, I would say its hard to know how Jesus looked like, considering that he lived 2000 yrs ago. But who cares, Jesus is everybody of us. He has no race or skin color or eye color or anything. I read a book called "Color of Water", and in it the protagonist(an African American) asks his Jewish White Mom(who converted to Christianity), what color was Jesus, and she says he has no color, he is the color of water.

In the end,
We have a Chinese Jesus in China

An African Jesus in Africa

And an White Jesus, in Europe and North America

 

[Estro Felino]

Well, Isaiah 53:2 says, “He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to Him, nothing in His appearance that we should desire Him.”

all right. But I just wanted to know: what was his life like, before he turned 33?
did he have a sexual life? what did he do?

 

[Phil25]

all right. But I just wanted to know: what was his life like, before he turned 33?

He was a Carpenter. So he must have been poor. I dont think he would have been starving, but I dont think his life was very luxurious either

did he have a sexual life? what did he do?

Well, I would remain neutral in this regard. Maybe he had sex, Maybe he didnt have sex? I dont really care in any case.
But I doubt he had any child, if he had, the child would have been mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Estro Felino]

Well, I would remain neutral in this regard. Maybe he had sex, Maybe he didnt have sex? I dont really care in any case.
But I doubt he had any child, if he had, the child would have been mentioned in the Bible.

I doubt it too. Besides...he may have dated some girl, he may have kissed them...that doesn't imply he had passionate sexual relations

 

[Phil25]

I doubt it too. Besides...he may have dated some girl, he may have kissed them...that doesn't imply he had passionate sexual relations

Maybe, who knows.
But I think 1st century Judaism was very strict regarding Sex. I doubt if they had dating in those times. It was more Parents arranging Marriage for their children. Marrying from equal social class.
I dont think Dating was tolerated.

 

[Pegg]

This thread is for analyzing the real human experience of Jesus, who, for us Christians, is God incarnate.
That is, he is the emblem of what God would do, if he were put into a mortal and material body.

My question is: how do you think Jesus lived his life? Did he choose to be chaste and to resist temptations like gluttony?
I am talking about the period before he turned 33, and so, before he started to preach Christianity.

he followed the mosaic law all his life.

He obeyed all the commandments perfectly as you would expect a person who claimed to love God and speak on behalf of God.

Look at the mosaic laws to see how Jesus lived. He upheld those laws and lived them. They are the standards he wanted his followers to uphold because they were Gods standards.

 

[Windwalker]

So Jesus was not gifted with "special powers" which enabled him to resist to temptations and to be infinitely good and altruistic. He chose , with his freewill, to be like that.

I would say he was 'gifted', yes. But that doesn't mean magically. Mozart was gifted with musical genius. Einstein was gifted. Some people have a certain natural proclivity towards certain realizations. Jesus was gifted with a certain spiritual proclivity, that allowed him to see what others could not easily, I believe. But that of course does not mean he did not have work at it to develop it! And that is what the mythologies about Jesus like to convey, that he was not like us in that his teachings, his insights were all fully intact from his infancy onward. That point of view to me is not very helpful, it's just fantastical to inspire someone to believe in magic, of some magical kingdom in the sky that will rescue you if you obey the law and just believe, click you heels three times, and whatnot.

What was Jesus like before 30 years old? On his path. Doing what we do. Taking what gifts he had and tried to develop them. Inspired and insightful, drawn inward towards God. Sought for Truth within, and then beyond what his religious tradition was presenting. Dissatisfied with the status quo, with the religious and cultural system as was. Saw Truth in everything, in the heart of the sinner, in the lilies of the field.

But I'll bet he had misturns to open him to his path. I'll bet he tried religious fanaticism, "obeying" every letter of the law to a T, like Pegg imagines he did, but only to find it unfulfilling spiritually, leaving one with a cup full of religion only, and realizing that the spirit of the law is where Truth exists, not in the letter of the law. His realization was an unfolding, and that unfolding occurred through trial and error, like everyone else. Even if he had a certain deep calling in his life.

It's possible he was part of the Essene community, trying to find God through austerity and denial, but then upon leaving he saw God in others. He probably met a woman, likely Mary Magdalene based on how she is portrayed in the scriptures, and that relationship dramatically altered his approach to understanding the nature of God through the love of another human. Jesus became the person of insight he was, because he gained them through living life, not hiding himself away steeped in religious dogma. He saw freedom from religion as the path to God, and true religion which lives in the heart. That is a man who came to know, to trust, and to rest with what was his own heart, realized through his love of God and others.

 

[Estro Felino]

I would say he was 'gifted', yes. But that doesn't mean magically. Mozart was gifted with musical genius. Einstein was gifted. Some people have a certain natural proclivity towards certain realizations. Jesus was gifted with a certain spiritual proclivity, that allowed him to see what others could not easily, I believe. But that of course does not mean he did not have work at it to develop it! And that is what the mythologies about Jesus like to convey, that he was not like us in that his teachings, his insights were all fully intact from his infancy onward. That point of view to me is not very helpful, it's just fantastical to inspire someone to believe in magic, of some magical kingdom in the sky that will rescue you if you obey the law and just believe, click you heels three times, and whatnot.

What was Jesus like before 30 years old? On his path. Doing what we do. Taking what gifts he had and tried to develop them. Inspired and insightful, drawn inward towards God. Sought for Truth within, and then beyond what his religious tradition was presenting. Dissatisfied with the status quo, with the religious and cultural system as was. Saw Truth in everything, in the heart of the sinner, in the lilies of the field.

But I'll bet he had misturns to open him to his path. I'll bet he tried religious fanaticism, "obeying" every letter of the law to a T, like Pegg imagines he did, but only to find it unfulfilling spiritually, leaving one with a cup full of religion only, and realizing that the spirit of the law is where Truth exists, not in the letter of the law. His realization was an unfolding, and that unfolding occurred through trial and error, like everyone else. Even if he had a certain deep calling in his life.

It's possible he was part of the Essene community, trying to find God through austerity and denial, but then upon leaving he saw God in others. He probably met a woman, likely Mary Magdalene based on how she is portrayed in the scriptures, and that relationship dramatically altered his approach to understanding the nature of God through the love of another human. Jesus became the person of insight he was, because he gained them through living life, not hiding himself away steeped in religious dogma. He saw freedom from religion as the path to God, and true religion which lives in the heart. That is a man who came to know, to trust, and to rest with what was his own heart, realized through his love of God and others.

You said wonderful things on which I totally agree.
I wish all Christians could see what you saw

 

[Windwalker]

You said wonderful things on which I totally agree.
I wish all Christians could see what you saw

Thank you. I agree. I think it's more helpful to see Jesus as someone we can aspire within ourselves to be, rather than seeing him removed from our own humanity as some god figure, incapable of the human struggle. How can anyone relate personally to that, and how does that help one to become what from the outset is placed beyond us?

 

[Thana]

I would say he was 'gifted', yes. But that doesn't mean magically. Mozart was gifted with musical genius. Einstein was gifted. Some people have a certain natural proclivity towards certain realizations. Jesus was gifted with a certain spiritual proclivity, that allowed him to see what others could not easily, I believe. But that of course does not mean he did not have work at it to develop it! And that is what the mythologies about Jesus like to convey, that he was not like us in that his teachings, his insights were all fully intact from his infancy onward. That point of view to me is not very helpful, it's just fantastical to inspire someone to believe in magic, of some magical kingdom in the sky that will rescue you if you obey the law and just believe, click you heels three times, and whatnot.

What was Jesus like before 30 years old? On his path. Doing what we do. Taking what gifts he had and tried to develop them. Inspired and insightful, drawn inward towards God. Sought for Truth within, and then beyond what his religious tradition was presenting. Dissatisfied with the status quo, with the religious and cultural system as was. Saw Truth in everything, in the heart of the sinner, in the lilies of the field.

But I'll bet he had misturns to open him to his path. I'll bet he tried religious fanaticism, "obeying" every letter of the law to a T, like Pegg imagines he did, but only to find it unfulfilling spiritually, leaving one with a cup full of religion only, and realizing that the spirit of the law is where Truth exists, not in the letter of the law. His realization was an unfolding, and that unfolding occurred through trial and error, like everyone else. Even if he had a certain deep calling in his life.

It's possible he was part of the Essene community, trying to find God through austerity and denial, but then upon leaving he saw God in others. He probably met a woman, likely Mary Magdalene based on how she is portrayed in the scriptures, and that relationship dramatically altered his approach to understanding the nature of God through the love of another human. Jesus became the person of insight he was, because he gained them through living life, not hiding himself away steeped in religious dogma. He saw freedom from religion as the path to God, and true religion which lives in the heart. That is a man who came to know, to trust, and to rest with what was his own heart, realized through his love of God and others.

A nice sentiment, Really.

But most Christians try to avoid ideological babble and stick to the teachings of the bible instead of our own fancies.

 

[Windwalker]

A nice sentiment, Really.

But most Christians try to avoid ideological babble and stick to the teachings of the bible instead of our own fancies.

Once upon a time when I was in Bible college I asked my professor a question that stretched him to think. He responded frustrated, "Just stick with what's in the Bible." Wow, really why? I guess its the difference between people who don't want to venture forth from four walls to think themselves, typically too afraid to, and those who wish to explore depth and meaning in ways that Spirit pulls. No belief should be set in stone. I believe that kills growth. I believe it does what Paul says about 'grieving the Spirit'. Life emerges, it's not grown in a test tube.

It boils down to the difference between needing nothing but an external authority to dictate the rules to you, and being free within and writing the rules from the Spirit within.

 

[Thana]

Once upon a time when I was in Bible college I asked my professor a question that stretched him to think. He responded frustrated, "Just stick with what's in the Bible." Wow, really why? I guess its the difference between people who don't want to venture forth from four walls to think themselves, typically too afraid to, and those who wish to explore depth and meaning in ways that Spirit pulls. No belief should be set in stone. I believe that kills growth. I believe it does what Paul says about 'grieving the Spirit'. Life emerges, it's not grown in a test tube.

It boils down to the difference between needing nothing but an external authority to dictate the rules to you, and being free within and writing the rules from the Spirit within.

Deviating from the bible is deviating from God, Which for a Christian is deviating from perfection, salvation and spiritual fulfillment and giving in to flesh.

It's easy for you to say we don't think for ourselves, But if you look at all the denominations in Christianity, You'll see that we certainly do.

No belief should be set in stone

Making an absolute statement is an easy way to be proven ignorant.

 

[Windwalker]

Deviating from the bible is deviating from God, Which for a Christian is deviating from perfection, salvation and spiritual fulfillment and giving in to flesh.

Jesus deviated from the religious ideas of what God wanted in their eyes. The letter of the law is death. More often than not, to deviate from 'established religious ideas', is exactly moving towards God, not deviating from God. It's really simple actually.

Jesus said it perfectly well when he said the two great commandments were to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength (these are matters of the soul reaching to touch the face of God itself directly, not conformity to external codes in all you efforts to be religious), and to love your neighbor as yourself (that from that Source of Love which you touch and draw from in your first act of loving God with your heart, that flows to others naturally like living water from the Wellspring of your renewed heart). And these two alone "fulfills the entirety of scriptural injunctions". So it is not deviated from God, but rather entering into God to find God within, and thus fulfill all law, making clean the inside of the cup first.

Moving beyond your own ideas of what God's truth is coming from yourself in how you read and interpret the Bible is often the very first step. You cannot see it, if your eyes are not illuminated by Spirit first. And that only occurs when you abandon your notions and goals and ambitions and say, "Not my will, but thine be done". You have to allow the mind to open through Spirit, not jamb Spirit into a box of your own theological designs.

It's easy for you to say we don't think for ourselves, But if you look at all the denominations in Christianity, You'll see that we certainly do.

In what ways? I do see lots of splinter groups centered around personality cults. But then within each of those there's a lot of conformity to beliefs, and cries of heresy when any step outside those imposed beliefs. It's still largely operating the same way, despite political wranglings. It's all just the same coin, just different sides of it.

I'm talking about freedom in spirit from the letter of law. Not a bunch of differing letters of the law.

Making an absolute statement is an easy way to be proven ignorant.

I wouldn't make an absolute statement. I see all beliefs as relative. The Absolute itself, is not a propositional truth, but rather the Wellspring of all relative truths. To be hung up on relative truths - the letter of the law being a prime example, is in fact deviating from God, deviating from Spirit. But one can certainly use the law, an external code to look to, in order to find Spirit within and beyond the law. Then its is useful, and not a millstone tied around the neck. "My burden is light," says Jesus. It's the liberty of Spirit beyond the letter of the law to which he speaks. To me, true children of God write scripture in every action from a true heart, not conform to code books all their lives. They conform to the image of God in their hearts, not a collection of books called the Bible, always and ever looking to find the "right" interpretation to 'believe' in.

 

[Thana]

not jamb Spirit into a box of your own theological designs.

Which is essentially what you're doing.

In what ways? I do see lots of splinter groups centered around personality cults. But then within each of those there's a lot of conformity to beliefs, and cries of heresy when any step outside those imposed beliefs. It's still largely operating the same way, despite political wranglings. It's all just the same coin, just different sides of it.
I'm talking about freedom in spirit from the letter of law. Not a bunch of differing letters of the law.

It's an example of how Christians do think for themselves.
Whether it is right or wrong is not my argument.

I wouldn't make an absolute statement. I see all beliefs as relative. The Absolute itself, is not a propositional truth, but rather the Wellspring of all relative truths. To be hung up on relative truths - the letter of the law being a prime example, is in fact deviating from God, deviating from Spirit. But one can certainly use the law, an external code to look to, in order to find Spirit beyond the law. Then its is useful, and not a millstone tied around the neck. "My burden is light," says Jesus. It's the liberty of Spirit beyond the letter of the law to which he speaks. To me, true children of God write scripture in every action from a true heart, not conform to code books all their lives. They conform to the image of God in their hearts, not a collection of books called the Bible, always and ever looking to find the "right" interpretation to 'believe' in.

I refer to my first statement, Ideological babble that doesn't apply to Christians.

I'm sorry but, If the entire bible was just meant to be taken figuratively, I'm pretty sure it would've mentioned that pretty significant information.

'Looking beyond the law' as you've so eloquently put it, Is essentially interpreting the bible to suit your ideals.

 

[Windwalker]

Which is essentially what you're doing.

Pray tell me, how? Be specific.

It's an example of how Christians do think for themselves.

Censure of thoughts and ideas is not thinking for oneself. It's group conformity.

Whether it is right or wrong is not my argument.

But it largely is theirs. And that's my point. They quibble over being right or wrong, and miss the point.

I refer to my first statement, Ideological babble that doesn't apply to Christians.

Babble? Can you get more offensive?

I'm sorry but, If the entire bible was just meant to be taken figuratively, I'm pretty sure it would've mentioned that pretty significant information.

I just had this discussion with an atheist regarding all-or-nothing thinking. "Entire". Where did I use that word?

'Looking beyond the law' as you've so eloquently put it, Is essentially interpreting the bible to suit your ideals.

No it's not. It's to suit God's.

 

[Thana]

Pray tell me, how? Be specific.

By saying "This is how it should be"

Censure of thoughts and ideas is not thinking for oneself. It's group conformity.

*sigh* it doesn't even matter

But it largely is theirs. And that's my point. They quibble over being right or wrong, and miss the point.

I'm a non-denominational Christian. I have no dog in that fight and it's not relevant to my point, either way.

Babble? Can you get more offensive?

I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just demonstrating how little regard I have for your ideals being shared in the Christianity DIR.

I just had this discussion with an atheist regarding all-or-nothing thinking. "Entire". Where did I use that word?

The Law is the foundation of the bible, Of Christianity. To dismiss it is to dismiss the value of everything in it.

No it's not. It's to suit God's.

No, It's to suit you. The bible says over and over to obey the law, To not sin. And you think that somehow doesn't mean what it very clearly means?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Jesus is fully God and fully man. He has two natures, one human and one Divine. He was completely sinless and yes, He was chaste. He didn't have sex.

 

[Windwalker]

I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just demonstrating how little regard I have for your ideals being shared in the Christianity DIR.

Well, you are being offensive. Have you never read commentaries on the Bible? Have you never read any books about Christian faith and interpretations and understanding of what the Christian faith is about to the authors? Would you prefer parrots? Robots?

And why do you believe I cannot share my thoughts about Christ in this DIR? Because it challenges you? You were, and are very quick to dismiss other's views about the Christian faith, for someone who claims to have no dog in the fight. In fact, considering the offensive posture you took at the outset, I would say my thoughts rattled you. That's good. I think we all should not be comfortable in our ideas and be provoked to think outside the box some. Overturn those tables of the moneychangers.

The Law is the foundation of the bible, Of Christianity. To dismiss it is to dismiss the value of everything in it.

Well now, please show me where, quote me in this thread, where I ever said I dismissed it? You can't. That is entirely your interpretation in your head alone, and it contradicts what I very clearly, and explicitly said, that loving God, and loving your neighbor as yourself is HOW you fulfill the law. Not dismiss it! Fascinating how you heard things the way you did. "Love is the fulfilling of the law". Not dismissing of the law. In fact, it is legalism that dismisses the law by not fulfilling it.

No, It's to suit you. The bible says over and over to obey the law, To not sin. And you think that somehow doesn't mean what it very clearly means?

And the only way to obey it is to suit God. Which is exactly everything I have said, and you could not see despite the clearly typed out words on the pages.