How I Feel About Atheists

[PureX]

I am not doing so. I am using what *you* suggested, which amounts to relying on make-believe. That isn't 'bad religion', it is pure fiction.

We rely on 'make-believe' every day. It's part of the human condition. We call it "reality" and we forget that we made it up so that we could pretend we understand what's going on around us, and control it. We do understand it, a little, and we can control it, a little. But in fact it's still a huge mystery to us.

 

[Polymath257]

We rely on 'make-believe' every day. It's part of the human condition. We call it "reality" and we forget that we made it up so that we could pretend we understand what's going on around us, and control it. We do understand it, a little, and we can control it, a little. But in fact it's still a huge mystery to us.

And the way to make it *less* of a mystery is to use the scientific method, not to indulge in make-believe. Reality isn't make-believe.

 

[Polymath257]

How might one conceive of this entity if it did exist?

By collecting relevant data?

 

[PureX]

No, they really don't.

Yes, they really do. For most atheists, it's themselves. It's the idea that they possess the power and the ability to understand and control their own destiny, through reason. They see no power greater than themselves. And they see no need of any. They ARE the highest power in their conception of reality.

 

[PureX]

And the way to make it *less* of a mystery is to use the scientific method, not to indulge in make-believe. Reality isn't make-believe.

Ah, yes, the mighty god of scientism! The fountainhead of all knowledge and truth in the atheist's meme! Except that it's not. It can't even explain how a simple magnet works. Let alone, why.

 

[PureX]

By collecting relevant data?

What relevant data would you look for?

 

[Polymath257]

Yes, they really do. For most atheists, it's themselves. It's the idea that they possess the power and the ability to understand and control their own destiny, through reason. They see no power greater than themselves. And they see no need of any. They ARE the highest power in their conception of reality.

This is simply a false stereotype. Reason is the approach to help understanding, but it certainly doesn't give power to control. For example, the sun is clearly a 'higher power' over which humans have no control. That doesn't make it a deity. There are many, many things over which neither I nor anyone has control. Many are quite relevant for my 'destiny'.

There are many people smarter than I am. There are many people more knowledgeable than i am. There are many people better at almost anything you can imagine than I am.

So, the question isn't whether there is a higher power; there clearly are many powers in the universe far more powerful than any human or even all humans combined. it is not a matter of controlling destiny, although understanding *can* help with that occasionally.

it is a matter of whether we should lie to ourselves by constructing a pleasant myth rather than seeking to uncover the truth however unpleasant it might be. And yes, we *do* hold self-honesty as a very important value. Your type of make-believe goes directly against that value.

 

[Polymath257]

Ah, yes, the mighty god of scientism! The fountainhead of all knowledge and truth in the atheist's meme! Except that it's not. It can't even explain how a simple magnet works. Let alone, why.

It does much more than faith ever will. if there is any way to learn how the universe works (or even magnets), it isn't through 'faith'; it is through observation and testing.

And yes, we understand much more about magnets that you seem to be aware of.

 

[Polymath257]

What relevant data would you look for?

Depends on which of many deities you claim exist. At this point, NO data seems to be relevant even when we would *expect* relevant data to appear. And that is very good reason to withhold belief.

 

[Jumi]

Yes, they really do. For most atheists, it's themselves. It's the idea that they possess the power and the ability to understand and control their own destiny, through reason. They see no power greater than themselves. And they see no need of any. They ARE the highest power in their conception of reality.

This isn't anything like what I was when I was atheist, nor is it anything like atheists I've met.

 

[PureX]

Depends on which of many deities you claim exist. At this point, NO data seems to be relevant even when we would *expect* relevant data to appear. And that is very good reason to withhold belief.

Why are you fighting with other people's idea of god when you can't even come up with one of your own?

 

[PureX]

This isn't anything like what I was when I was atheist, nor is it anything like atheists I've met.

Can you explain how my characterization is wrong?

 

[Polymath257]

Why are you fighting with other people's idea of god when you can't even come up with one of your own?

I don't find the need to come up with one. That's what you seem to not understand: making myths isn't something that interests me. I am interested in truth. And I find no truth at all in God-concepts, merely make-believe.

 

[Polymath257]

Can you explain how my characterization is wrong?

Already pointed out above.

 

[Polymath257]

Ah, yes, the mighty god of scientism! The fountainhead of all knowledge and truth in the atheist's meme! Except that it's not. It can't even explain how a simple magnet works. Let alone, why.

We seem to understand magnets well enough to make electricity using them, and to make magnets using electricity. We are able to use our knowledge to make new magnetic materials and to explain why those we already have are magnetic. We understand how electricity and magnetism relate to each other and that electromagnetism and that it is one of the fundamental forces in the universe (like gravity is).

So, yes, we *do* have explanations of how a simple magnet works (unpaired electron spins are one aspect in permanent magnets) and why some materials are magnetic and others are not. We understand the dynamics of magnets and the various ways they can affects other things.

Exactly what do you want in your explanation?

 

[Jumi]

Can you explain how my characterization is wrong?

It'd be easier to say that it's completely false.

For most atheists, it's themselves.

They're not any more selfish than believers.

It's the idea that they possess the power and the ability to understand and control their own destiny, through reason.

It's quite easy to see that you don't control your destiny that much. A catastrophe can happen, your heart can suddenly fail without giving much warning, a crazy man may attack and kill you without you being able to defend. The earth is a tiny grain of sand on the oceans of the universe, how much power can someone living on a grain of sand think they control destiny?

They see no power greater than themselves. And they see no need of any. They ARE the highest power in their conception of reality.

The universe itself is a power greater than any atheist. It's still in recent memory how theists called me out for my arrogance of not believing their religion's god when I was an atheist, I remember telling them how arrogant it was to be to consider oneself a small insignificant person on a planet in a universe of this size, but I guess that's still arrogance?

It'd be strange for an atheist to go against a thunderstorm thinking they are greater than it's power. There was never a lack of greater powers when I was atheist.

 

[Revoltingest]

...we *do* have explanations of how a simple magnet works (unpaired electron spins are one aspect in permanent magnets) and why some materials are magnetic and others are not. We understand the dynamics of magnets and the various ways they can affects other things.

But that's just theory.
You can't see these "electrons" or watch them spin.
So much for your conveniently invisible flux lines!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, they really do. For most atheists, it's themselves. It's the idea that they possess the power and the ability to understand and control their own destiny, through reason. They see no power greater than themselves. And they see no need of any. They ARE the highest power in their conception of reality.

Not everyone shares your assumption of a hierarchical universe, so for many people, "greater than themselves" or "lower than themselves" are nonsensical statements.

And the fact that you use God to fill some set of purposes in your life doesn't mean that the things that fills these purposes for other people is necessarily their "God".

 

[Mister Silver]

When you have anywhere near the quantity and kinds of evidence for a god that we have for gravity, the debate will be over.

Without evidence for god, belief in god or the debate for the existence of god should not even be taking place in a logical reality.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ah, yes, the mighty god of scientism! The fountainhead of all knowledge and truth in the atheist's meme! Except that it's not. It can't even explain how a simple magnet works. Let alone, why.

What's your problem with science?

"What do you think science is? There's nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. Which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?"
- Steven Novella