How I Feel About Atheists

[atanu]

Then what do you mean by 'guided' evolution ?

Either towards survival or towards truth. Which you prefer?

 

[LuisDantas]

Either to towards survival or towards truth. Which you prefer?

Evolution is guided towards the aptitude to continued survival of the species.

Not by an intelligence, but by the circunstances of the environment. It is called selective pressure.

Evolutionary pressure - Wikipedia

I don't think that is any evidence for the existence of a creator god - if anything, it is evidence against such an existence - but it is well demonstrated enough.

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

Blatantly false. The sun does NOT exist only in the mind as an idea. It actually, physically exists about 93 million miles from us.


I understand what you say. I just think it is nonsense. Solipsism, pure and simple.


Again, blatantly wrong. We understand through ideas, but there are many things other than ideas that actually exist.


Again, clearly and obviously false. It is NOT a subjective thing to say the sun exists outside of our minds.



A more encompassing idea. But trees actually exist outside of the mind. There is an actual reality out there that doens't depend on ideas in human skulls. The question is whether 'God' is merely an idea that we imagine or whether such a being (however defined) actually exists independent of our thoughts.

As I read your discussion it made me think. In regards to a tree or sun existing outside of the mind, this is a philosophical question which an answer may be paradoxical. If there is no mind to sense the sun or tree, does it still exist ? It would still exist , but only to a mind that is present to sense it. An absent mind could not sense anything. If there were no minds at all, it would be a paradox as to whether anything existed. The sun existed before minds came into existence. But the sun wasn't perceived as existing until the first mind came to actually sense it. It would physically exist but the idea of it would not exist until a mind was present to sense it's existence.

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

Evolution is guided towards the aptitude to continued survival of the species.

Not by an intelligence, but by the circunstances of the environment. It is called selective pressure.

Evolutionary pressure - Wikipedia

I don't think that is any evidence for the existence of a creator god - if anything, it is evidence against such an existence - but it is well demonstrated enough.

How do you know an intelligence didn't design the circumstances of the environment or didn't design selective pressure ?
If there was a higher intelligence, it would be just that, an intelligence higher than yours or mine. Why do you think you would understand the reasoning and mind of a higher intelligence ?

 

[Koldo]

Either towards survival or towards truth. Which you prefer?

Can you elaborate both cases ?
I don't understand what exactly you mean.

 

[LuisDantas]

How do you know an intelligence didn't design the circumstances of the environment or didn't design selective pressure ?

Because I have a modicum of knowledge of biology. If there is an intelligence behind it, it is going out of its way to hide itself, to the point of making stupid and cruel choices just to appear random.

If there was a higher intelligence, it would be just that, an intelligence higher than yours or mine. Why do you think you would understand the reasoning and mind of a higher intelligence ?

An intelligence that does not know how to be discernible is not much of an intelligence, now is it?

 

[atanu]

Can you elaborate both cases ?
I don't understand what exactly you mean.

a) Suppose the truth is non dual and the view of manifold universe is like a film playing, Or,
b) Suppose that the manifold universe is the truth and the non dual truth taught by sages is a bunkum.

What may be the overall system direction in the above two scenarios?

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

Because I have a modicum of knowledge of biology. If there is an intelligence behind it, it is going out of its way to hide itself, to the point of making stupid and cruel choices just to appear random.




An intelligence that does not know how to be discernible is not much of an intelligence, now is it?

Yea, I have studied biology in college as well. That means nothing to me. Some of the most brilliant scientists in biology still believe that a higher intelligence may exist. In fact, their very studies led them to consider this a possibility.

 

[Polymath257]

As I read your discussion it made me think. In regards to a tree or sun existing outside of the mind, this is a philosophical question which an answer may be paradoxical. If there is no mind to sense the sun or tree, does it still exist ?

yes, it would. Many things existed long before there were intelligent species to observe them.

It would still exist , but only to a mind that is present to sense it.

Um, no. They would still exist. But nobody would know they exist.

An absent mind could not sense anything. If there were no minds at all, it would be a paradox as to whether anything existed. The sun existed before minds came into existence. But the sun wasn't perceived as existing until the first mind came to actually sense it. It would physically exist but the idea of it would not exist until a mind was present to sense it's existence.

Exactly. It would exist. But the idea of it would not. So ideas are not the same as the things.

 

[Koldo]

a) Suppose the truth is non dual and the view of manifold universe is like a film playing, Or,
b) Suppose that the manifold universe is the truth and the non dual truth taught by sages is a bunkum.

What may be the overall system direction in the above two scenarios?

Can you cut to the chase ?
It feels like I am getting nowhere closer to understanding what you mean by 'guided evolution'.

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

yes, it would. Many things existed long before there were intelligent species to observe them.

Um, no. They would still exist. But nobody would know they exist.



Exactly. It would exist. But the idea of it would not. So ideas are not the same as the things.

Agreed.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yea, I have studied biology in college as well. That means nothing to me. Some of the most brilliant scientists in biology still believe that a higher intelligence may exist.

That is their personal business, and is not supposed to have any consequences on their biological knowledge.

In fact, their very studies led them to consider this a possibility.

If they say so.

I just don't see why that would be much of a deal either way.

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

That is their personal business, and is not supposed to have any consequences on their biological knowledge.


If they say so.

I just don't see why that would be much of a deal either way.

And maybe the evidence of a higher intelligence is discernible but you just don't see it. Look at yourself in the mirror, literally. Maybe the evidence of a higher intelligence will be staring back at you.

I'm not claiming there is or is not. But I do see evidence in our very existence that could promote the possibility of a higher intelligence. If there is, what you consider stupid, or random , or cruel may be just part of his design that will eventually reveal itself to us in some fashion that we can't even understand right now. Haven't you ever experienced something bad in your life that turned out to be good or beneficial ? Neither of us know if there is or isn't. But no one can deny the possibility. Well, they can, but that would be their personal view ,it would not be an absolute known fact, because it may not be knowable at this time. But many people do believe that there is, from every walk of life, throughout history , and will as long as we exist in our current human states with our current human minds. And there is nothing wrong or unreasonable about it. And I don't find it unreasonable if you don't believe in the possibility.

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

And maybe the evidence of a higher intelligence is discernible but you just don't see it. Look at yourself in the mirror, literally. Maybe the evidence of a higher intelligence will be staring back at you.

I'm not claiming there is or is not. But I do see evidence in our very existence that could promote the possibility of a higher intelligence. If there is, what you consider stupid, or random , or cruel may be just part of his design that will eventually reveal itself to us in some fashion that we can't even understand right now. Haven't you ever experienced something bad in your life that turned out to be good or beneficial ? Neither of us know if there is or isn't. But no one can deny the possibility. Well, they can, but that would be their personal view ,it would not be an absolute known fact, because it may not be knowable at this time. But many people do believe that there is, from every walk of life, throughout history , and will as long as we exist in our current human states with our current human minds. And there is nothing wrong or unreasonable about it. And I don't find it unreasonable if you don't believe in the possibility.

 

[LuisDantas]

And maybe the evidence of a higher intelligence is discernible but you just don't see it.

Always a possibility, I suppose. It is not like it is a big deal. I am quite the apatheist.

Look at yourself in the mirror, literally. Maybe the evidence of a higher intelligence will be staring back at you.

So far it did not. I take it that you expected it to?

I'm not claiming there is or is not. But I do see evidence in our very existence that could promote the possibility of a higher intelligence. If there is, what you consider stupid, or random , or cruel may be just part of his design that will eventually reveal itself to us in some fashion that we can't even understand right now. Haven't you ever experienced something bad in your life that turned out to be good or beneficial ? Neither of us know if there is or isn't. But no one can deny the possibility. Well, they can, but that would be their personal view ,it would not be an absolute known fact, because it may not be knowable at this time. But many people do believe that there is, from every walk of life, throughout history , and will as long as we exist in our current human states with our current human minds. And there is nothing wrong or unreasonable about it. And I don't find it unreasonable if you don't believe in the possibility.

I don't think I will ever find valuing theism very natural or understandable, sorry.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

This guy is hung up on this FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER . It seems to be his go to argument in his lack of understanding in this matter. I see he wants you to answer his ridiculous question yet he won't answer my variety of questions in response to him posting the same question to me about this FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER in connection to our discussion on the possibility of the existence of an Intelligent Designer.

What's ridiculous about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Blessed be his noodly self, born of extra virgin olive oil, delivered by Little Caesarian (in 30 minutes or less) and cast out of the Olive Garden carrying the Ten Condiments. Blessed be He who has come for our salivation.

Our pasta was killed by the Antipasto as foretold in the book of Romanos. Snagged by a giant twirling fork, Our Savory was placed on a plate and hurled onto a wall, where He stuck and dried for our sins.

Cheese's Crust, how grated thou art! And blessed be Mother Marinara.

May there be pizza on earth and gouda will toward men

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

What evidence were you logically expecting to find proving that gods exist?

None.

I can't imagine what evidence there would be that we humans could detect, that would prove to us that such a metaphysical, ultra-creative, 'spirit entity' exists. Nor can I conceive of what similar evidence there possibly be that could disprove such an existence.

Proof of the existence of a god is not required. Compelling evidence us sufficient.

How about if glowing auras of holy light appeared around believers and believers only to protect them from harm? Or how about if atheists and only atheists were regularly struck by lightning? Or how about if only patients prayed for by members of a specific religion in a repeatable, placebo-controlled, prospective, double blinded study recovered better, or regrew limbs? How about if the stars in the sky rearranged themselves into a message?

There might be other explanations for these phenomena if they occurred, but at least there would be a reason to believe that gods were more than logically possible.

Even a decent holy book would go a long way toward suggesting the existence of a god, especiially if aliens visited us carrying the same book. Here's how Ingersoll described such a book:

* It should be a book that no man -- no number of men -- could produce.
* It should contain the perfection of philosophy.
* It should perfectly accord with every fact in nature.
* There should be no mistakes in astronomy, geology, or as to any subject or science.
* Its morality should be the highest, the purest.
* Its laws and regulations for the control of conduct should be just, wise, and perfectly adapted to the accomplishment of the ends desired.
* It should contain nothing calculated to make man cruel, revengeful, vindictive or infamous.
* It should be filled with intelligence, justice, purity, honesty, mercy and the spirit of liberty.
* It should be opposed to strife and war, to slavery and lust, to ignorance, credulity and superstition.
* It should develop the brain and civilize the heart.
* It should satisfy the heart and brain of the best and wisest.

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

Always a possibility, I suppose. It is not like it is a big deal. I am quite the apatheist.




So far it did not. I take it that you expected it to?



I don't think I will ever find valuing theism very natural or understandable, sorry.

No , my point about looking in the mirror was that some people, like myself, just find the fact that we exist and are such incredibly designed beings as possible evidence of a higher intelligence.
I don't want you to change any of your views, that's not for me to want. I'm just having a discussion of ideas with you.
I only responded to you initially because it sounded like you were saying that it is a fact or truth that there is no possibility of a higher intelligence or Intelligent Designer. Maybe I misunderstood.
I was just saying that there is a possibility but , of course, no one can prove that there is or isn't or state unequivocally that there is or isn't.
Just curious, do you contemplate how living matter came into being from non-living matter or how the universe suddenly began from nothing ?
Or do you find these questions inconsequential since they are unknowable ?

 

[NoRightOrWrong]

What's ridiculous about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Blessed be his noodly self, born of extra virgin olive oil, delivered by Little Caesarian (in 30 minutes or less) and cast out of the Olive Garden carrying the Ten Condiments. Blessed be He who has come for our salivation.

Our pasta was killed by the Antipasto as foretold in the book of Romanos. Snagged by a giant twirling fork, Our Savory was placed on a plate and hurled onto a wall, where He stuck and dried for our sins.

Cheese's Crust, how grated thou art! And blessed be Mother Marinara.

May there be pizza on earth and gouda will toward men

That was good , I must admit !

 

[Polymath257]

1.) You claim that the only option is that there is no cause for existence. That is simply a view that you derived at, it isn't an absolute truth. It is just another opinion of yours. We don't know or may not be able to understand the nature of a possible ID or the paradox of who designed the Designer.

There is no paradox. Existence simply cannot have a cause.

You have two cases: either there is an infinite sequences of causes going backwards, in which case existence of that sequence is not caused.

OR you have something that exists and is uncaused. In that case, the existence of that thing isn't caused.

So, existence itself cannot be caused. The notion is self-contradictory.

Our logic and reasoning and minds may not be equipped to grasp what may be the cause. There could be a completely different set of logic and rules and science that exists outside of our human thought capacity. Just because we don't know the cause doesn't mean that there is no cause.

Always the theist way out: well, we just don't know, maybe the rules are different.

So your opinion is that there is no cause to existence. Then how do we exist ? We just are here , with no cause ? That seems less likely , although possible, than the existence of a cause.

Existence just is. No cause for it. However, each individual thing inside the universe can have a cause (if there is an infinite sequence of causes leading up to it, for example).

Either way it is something we can't comprehend , but that still, in my opinion, doesn't rule out the possibility of an ID who may be existing on a plane that is not logical or reasonable as we know it. The answer may be that an ID both exists and doesn't exist. Maybe there are an infinity of IDs. Maybe infinity is the cause. We use the term infinity in math and science although scientists and mathematicians admit that we can't comprehend infinity or prove the concept at all So maybe an ID is like infinity and we just can't comprehend it.

I am a mathematician and I work with infinite sets all the time. I have no problem comprehending them, nor do the other mathematicians around me. Are there unanswered questions? You bet. Many. i can give you a list of the easier ones to state if you'd like one.

That doesn't mean it can't exist in some capacity.

What does it mean to have different 'capacities' of existence? Isn't it a yes/no question?

There is no weakness in my logic in this matter. Then your logic conclusion about there being no cause for existence is equally as weak. I draw no conclusion in this matter, only possibilities . You seem to have come to a conclusion about that which we don't know......2.) Yes , people can be wrong about certain things that they believe are true. I am speaking of the many things that you tell people are wrong that I don't believe are wrong and I think are open to interpretation and not hard facts. So can you admit that what YOU strongly believe in may be wrong too ? Or does your statement only apply to other people whom YOU believe are wrong ?

Of course I can be wrong. I have been. Many times. Maybe even daily.

Now, all you have presented for thinking I may be wrong is your 'feeling' that i am wrong. Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it. Give some actual evidence that I am wrong, not some vague feelings. Show where the logic I used to get my conclusion is faulty. maybe we are using different definitions. In that case, maybe the resolution of the differences is to decide on two definitions for the two concepts and proceed.