How important are facts within your religious beliefs?

[joelr]

In your opinion.

In your opinion.

Go ahead, knock yourself out.

In your opinion.

It cannot be demonstrated. It is just your personal opinion.

In your opinion.
All you have are personal opinions. Let's not confuse facts with personal opinions. Facts are provable, personal opinions are not.
Personal opinions are a dime a dozen. Facts are harder to come by.
Who do you think cares about your personal opinions about the Baha'i Faith?
You cannot demonstrate anything with personal opinions..
You cannot debunk or eradicate a world religion with "personal opinions."

I already did. You posted 2 links to sources which I debunked and then you just said you were going to ignore me.

Are Religions and Gods manmade?
There is demonstrable evidence of botched science in the links. I wrote several threads about it and you responded to none of the debunking of the science, prophecies or the idea that a messenger of God would provide new philosophies to humanity. None of that happened. The Mt Carmel prophecy was completely debunked as well.

Now that time has gone by and the thread is buried you are claiming they are "personal opinions".




"Also in the Loom of Reality he seems to think Adam was a real man which we know is actually taken from Mesopotamian myths and goes against evolution. You already claimed these were myths but the Baha scripture doesn't seem to think so. He does say evolution is real (weird contradiction) but that it stops for man because nature does not seek to build a higher form. It does not stop. This is a misunderstanding of evolution and biology that was clearly made up by a person.

He also thinks number 9 is the highest number because 10 is a continuation of 1.
True, but only in base 10. It would be 8 or 11 or 12 in a different base. Some civilizations used different base number systems. So that's numerology nonsense, not God wisdom.

I'm seeing some terrible science in the "scientific proof of God" as well. The author doesn't realize the laws of physics accounts for composition of forms and thinks "humidity" is inherent in one water molecule. The logical line that the human form proves the "will of the creator" is just bad science and bad logic."

Who do you think cares about your personal opinions about the Baha'i Faith?

You already tried this as well. Someone says something you cannot debunk so you go all "who cares about your opinion?" yet you and everyone else is on a debate forum expressing opinions and you somehow forget that? That is so bizarre?

 

[joelr]

Very early Christianity knew and taught the truth, but it went off track after the first few centuries. The First Council of Nicaea was the beginning of the end of true true Christianity.

Christianity and Judaism are true religions because they were true Revelations from God, but later they were mucked up by men and no longer represented what was first revealed.

Then why was 1/2 of Christianity in the 2nd century composed of sects closer to what we now call Gnostic?

Elaine Pagels details this in her book The Gnostic Gospels.

"Some of the major movements were:

• Gnosticism – second to fourth centuries – reliance on revealed knowledge from an unknowable God, a distinct divinity from the Demiurge who created and oversees the material world. The Gnostics claimed to have received secret teachings (gnosis) from Jesus via other apostles which were not publicly known, or in the case of Valentinius from Paul the Apostle. Gnosticism is predicated on the existence of such hidden knowledge, but brief references to private teachings of Jesus have also survived in the canonic scripture (Mark 4:11) as did warning by the Christ that there would be false prophets or false teachers. Irenaeus' opponents also claimed that the wellsprings of divine inspiration were not dried up, which is the doctrine of continuing revelation.[citation needed]
• Marcionism – second century – the God of Jesus was a different God from the God of the Old Testament.
• Montanism – second century – a pentecostal movement initiated by Montanus and his female disciples, featuring prophetic continuing revelations from the Holy Spirit.
• Adoptionism – second century – Jesus was not born the Son of God, but was adopted at his baptism, resurrection or ascension.
• Docetism – second to third century – Jesus was pure spirit and his physical form an illusion.
• Sabellianism – third century – the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three modes of the one God and not the three separate persons of the Trinity.
• Arianism – third to fourth century – Jesus, while not merely mortal, was not eternally divine and was of some lesser status than God the Father.[note 1]

In the middle of the second century, the Christian communities of Rome, for example, were divided between followers of Marcion, Montanism, and the gnostic teachings of Valentinus.

Many groups were dualistic, maintaining that reality was composed into two radically opposing parts: matter, usually seen as evil, and spirit, seen as good. Proto-orthodox Christianity, on the other hand, held that both the material and spiritual worlds were created by God and were therefore both good, and that this was represented in the unified divine and human natures of Christ.[47] Trinitarianism held that God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit were all strictly one being with three hypostases.
Christianity in the ante-Nicene period - Wikipedia

 

[nPeace]

In the 70's as a wandering hippie I first learned about the Baha'i Faith, then a friend "found" Jesus. I was in Southern California and there was a huge "Jesus" movement going on. At Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa every Saturday night they had Christian rock concerts and a short alter call kind of message. The Baha'is, along with saying their prophet was the return of every promised one of every major religion, focused more on bringing peace and unity to the world. I hadn't read the Bible, so when they quoted things from the Bible in support of their prophet and religion being true, I assumed they were telling the truth.

But then my friend started taking me Church services and Bible studies at an Evangelical type of Church, along with going to Calvary Chapel on Saturday night. Then there was home Bible studies. These were all young people doing all this except for the Sunday service at the Church. To see the Bible verses the Baha'is had quoted in context was a big problem. So I started doubting what the Baha'is had been saying and listening more and more to the Christians.

So the "facts" according to those Christians... The Bible is the infallible and inerrant Word of God. Jesus is part of a Trinitarian God. Satan and hell are real. Believe in Jesus and he will save you and give you eternal life and all the rest of the stuff they say. The focus was mostly on being saved and that the end was coming soon when God and Jesus would judge the world. The other religions and most all Christians sects and denominations were not part of the "truth". I tried it and enjoyed it, but then found things I questioned. So I fell away from them too. Now I doubt both Baha'is and Christians. But what I do believe is that no matter what religion a person believes, if they believe it, it will make sense to them and they will get something out of it. For me, it's difficult to believe everything a religion says.

Thank you for that. it was very informative, and real.
I'm on RF, so I cannot say anything much on this... All I will say is, as you journey, keep your eyes opened, and alert. As Jesus said, "Keep seeking, and you will find."

 

[CG Didymus]

That makes sense why you are where you are in relation to both Christianity and the Baha’i Faith. Clearly there is a significant movement within Christendom that is departing from the more literal approach of the evangelical Christians and JWs. Why would you join any religion if none make sense and they require a degree of commitment from you?

Yes, why? Trouble is Christians and Baha'is presented their beliefs to me as if they were facts. The Evangelical/fundamental/Christians make the Bible and all the "historical" stories in it true and factual. Prophecies and parables were different. Some Christians took them a little metaphorical. But as far as God speaking from heaven, angels appearing, Satan talking to Jesus, seas parting and the like... those were literal.

The foundation of the spiritual side of some of these Christians' lives was talking as much as possible as literal fact. They had power over Satan because they could call on Jesus and the devil would flee. And they believe the devil was very real and always looking to find a foothold into their lives. Some of them seemed to be filled with light. They had surrendered themselves to those beliefs about Jesus and the Bible. But I've seen that same thing in people in all religions, including the Baha'is Faith. Trouble is the foundational beliefs of each one of them was different. What they had in common was they were living for a higher truth. But some of these truths, I would think, even Baha'is would say are wrong. Like a Christian that is filled with love, but believes Jesus is God, that he is coming back, and all the rest of those fundamental beliefs some of them have.

Oh, and then some Christian friends of mine were Pentecostal/Charismatic and spoke in tongues and were Baptized in the Holy Spirit. They were filled with that same love, but the other Christians thought that those Christians were absolutely wrong.

So, as long as it isn't a harmful religion, it doesn't seem to matter what they believe. As long as it gets them to live a life of love and doing good. But, then again, too many religions have people in them that don't live with love in their heart... But more anger and hatred for those that don't believe "The Truth".

So what do Baha'is throw out there as "facts"? All religions are basically one since they came from the same God. The only differences were the social laws. But then, each religion got messed up by people misinterpreting and adding things in. To me that's a big one. As I think you know by now, I think the religious leaders in each culture or tribe or whatever, made up Gods, myths, and rules for their society. So I don't have a problem with a religion like Hinduism having all sorts of various beliefs about Gods and spiritual practices. And, even the major religions were changed a little to better fit a different people and culture. So I don't see the Baha'i belief in one God progressively sending new manifestations as true. Anyway, always interesting reading and posting to your threads. Thanks.

 

[Isolde Schulz]

For some of us our religious beliefs are founded on historical characters who we can attribute coherent teachings and know of their lives. For others our beliefs have little if anything that can be attributed as historically true, yet we believe. Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?

It matters to even consider the lofty topic, because the rewards of discovering new phenomena are untold. Or are they? When we choose to implement a historical figure, I'd like to think it's a jovial one who manages with charisma. But an evil cat with benign intentions will do.

 

[CG Didymus]

Everyone finds the path that fits with them for the time being.

Yeah, the Baha'i Faith is fine for some people. It seeks peace and unity between all people and all the religions. Only problem is that Baha'is believe they are the latest religion from the God. So everything that their prophet has said and written is from God. Therefore, what they say is The Truth, and maybe they don't come out and say it directly, but that means anyone that doesn't recognize their prophet is somehow spiritually blind or something. Or worse yet, they are stuck in the dogma and man made doctrines of their old religion which again, blinds them from The Truth... that the Baha'i Faith is just an extension of their old religion. Which is a nice way of saying, "You guys had the Truth but you messed up God's truth and now our religion is here to set things right again."