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How important is choose a Pantheon?

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
Well it depends, really. If you're determined to worship the Chaos Gods (whose existence only makes sense in a Warhammer context) then I get the feeling people will think you're calling yourself Pagan to make fun & mock and so won't take you all that seriously. You'd be straining the credulity not only of Pagans themselves but of who can honestly be considered Pagan.

I don't think others' opinions, especially uninformed ones, should be used as a standard by which to evaluate the validity of one's spirituality.

Songs of the Metamythos, by C.F. Cooper is a totally modern mythology with modern deities which the author worships. This is an example of what may be termed Modern Culture neo-paganism.

Some magicians work with pop culture entities magically such as author of Pop Culture Magick, Taylor Ellwood. Some work with pop culture entities or elements in a devotional neo-pagan way.

It really is up to you whether or how to work with gods or other beings, and that depends how one understands deity or deities.
 

Cassandra

Active Member
I don't think others' opinions, especially uninformed ones, should be used as a standard by which to evaluate the validity of one's spirituality.

Songs of the Metamythos, by C.F. Cooper is a totally modern mythology with modern deities which the author worships. This is an example of what may be termed Modern Culture neo-paganism.

Some magicians work with pop culture entities magically such as author of Pop Culture Magick, Taylor Ellwood. Some work with pop culture entities or elements in a devotional neo-pagan way.

It really is up to you whether or how to work with gods or other beings, and that depends how one understands deity or deities.
My view:

I totally respect that young people seek new ways of spirituality.

I guess for many of them neo-pagan means something like: Mainstream society (Christianity) hates Pagans and they also reject us, so we are the new Pagans, let us identify as neo-pagans.

For people like me Paganism is no counter culture to modern western society, but elder and true traditions in their own right, in some ways different but in no way inferior to Abrahamist traditions with their grand claims and philosophies.

Many here seem to reject morals as society constructs. In Abrahamism this is indeed the case. It was formulated by people (they say inspired by their God) in books and then laid down on people as coming from God though a priesthood. It is very much a hierarchical order from above..

That is not how mores (including morals) in Pagan traditions work. They develop over time as best practices to find harmony with all beings in the environment. They are no constructs. no one constructed them, they grew naturally and change naturally with the environment. This wisdom is handed over from generation to generation. That is why it is called "tradition", which literally means "handed over". Trying to preserve and hand down the wisdom of our ancestors is Paganism.

In our modern society that is so quickly changing that it scatters all traditions (Abrahamic traditions as well) and makes people spiritual orphans, young people create their own subcultures and seek spirituality in them. These subcultures are no constructs and also evolve and dissolve naturally and in that sense they are like Pagan traditions,

The difference is that Pagan traditions are not the product of one generation but of many, many, many generations. And thus they develop notions we call higher values that are passed not so much by teaching, but almost unnoticeable. They are in the examples of parents and respected people, they are in the customs, they are in everything. You breath them and you eat them. And thus they survive often invisible.

A interesting example in another thread is where someone writes that people like Lemmy Kilmister of Motörhead are demigods. He is by many worshiped as a person breaking the norms.

That is only true in a musical sense, he had his own style and produced more decibels than anyone at the time. On an invitation I once visited one of his concerts in small theater that used to be a cinema, and I had a ring in my ears for three days after. It was so deafening that all songs sounded like a storm and in it was Lemmy statically singing with his head up to the mic. It was the worst concert I ever attended. I thought his music was horrible for a long time, until years later I happened to hear their album "No Sleep 'til Hammersmith (1981)" and realized it was quite good. Motorhead means speed trip and that rush it translates into music. Lemmy was a roady of Jimmy Hendrix who also was a master of translating his psychedelic experiences into music. And Lemmy's first band "Hawkwind" also did that stunningly well.

Now what makes Lemmy so special for his fans? Well he was a rock artist that lived by the five principles of Malboro, Johnny Walker, Speed, Women, and Rock and Roll. But that is not unique, but rather the norm in rock bands. To live on the wild side is nothing special here. What makes Lemmy special is that he indulged in all these and not went under.

The most destructive of all is the fame and idolizing that make people lose themselves and start living in a myth they themselves help create. But not Lemmy, Lemmy stayed Lemmy. And thus he managed to function while giving in to his vices and still stay on top of it. He remained the master of his actions, which is indeed exceptional. Walking on the edge for so long and not falling over is remarkable and few will pull that off. And he was honest enough to say people should not take an example of him in that respect.

But here is the thing that few young people in America will readily see. What made Lemmy so stable? The answer is tradition. Metal rockers in the US say: We recognized that Lemmy did not fit in like us. But that is not true at all. Like many other great British musicians, Lemmy is a typical Working Class kind of guy. In Britain "Working Class" means something. People are not ashamed of it, but proud of it. They are proud to be honest, hard working people who do not look down on others,but share and drink with each other. Lemmy never was an outcast. he was firmly grounded in his working class tradition and never lost contact with the people he grew up with. Because in the working class tradition they despise people who feel better. That is why Lemmy always stayed Lemmy, a good guy at heart. And a guy that kept on working his whole life with the ethos he learned from his tradition.

That is what tradition does for you. If gives you a foundation, a belonging, a place in the universe, a past and a future. It gives you values that give you direction to your actions and make you strong. To know what is right in every given situation because values guide you, goes beyond morals/laws imposed by society. To belong to group of people and share the same values gives people strength and inner happiness.

The downside of youth culture is that it is generational and rapidly changing. It is also naturally revolting and seeking the limits. It can destroy people, and also leave people disillusioned when they try to hold on to it.

It does not seek harmony with the wider environment which also translates in aggression and rejection of main stream society. This again creates stress. Search for magic has very much to do with seeking strength to resist rationally ordered society, but also seeking the limits of experience like with drugs.

Why do we see these things mostly in Western culture and especially in the USA?

For one because Western culture is still deeply rooted in Greek civilization. Even Abrahamism is to a great extend a reflection of that, but Jews, Romans, and Arabs hid where most of their ideas really came from. One of the particularities of Greek civilization is generational conflict. It is a common element in many of their myths. The new generation revolts to the previous generation. We do not find this in the rest of the world. You will not find the same generational conflicts in non-western cultures.

A second reason is the speed with which modern society changes. Every new generation now basically grows up in different society and has a different mindset. Their brains are literally structured differently than that of previous generation making them think and appreciate differently.

A third reason is that family structure has fallen to pieces. The different generations no longer live together. In southern Europe it is still normal that parents live in with their children and grand children. It is natural that it is grand parents that educate the grand children and pass on the traditions, while the parents are working. This is lost in western society.

Thus this cord that connects us with our ancestors has become broken, and that is very serious. Because if you believe the soul is indeed immortal and keeps reincarnating, then you may also understand that you are your ancestors and one day you will reappear as one of your offspring. And you want to hand them down the true values that make them succeed in life and find happiness.

Our most loving ancestors even protect us when they are dead. As guardian spirits/angels they guide us in life. That is what our ancestors believed. But in all Pagan traditions there was also tremendous fear of invoking malicious spirits. One could even say they were more busy in trying to avoid and appease malicious spirits than worshiping beneficial ones.

This is something that young generations who have lost connection with ancestral tradition rarely seem to understand. In wanting to provoke the norms or in ignorance they go a dangerous path. They are overconfident without any real knowledge. TV-series, fantasy books, and books on Paganism make them feel confident.

To reject what is wrong (repressive religion) and going against it, makes them feel good. Young people think overly rational. If A=false, then -A must be good. It is not that simple. First one has to realize that Abrahamic traditions themselves are deeply based on older Pagan traditions and adopted even more things Pagan as they spread. Even if it is forced upon us in the wrong manner as morals, that does not mean it is all wrong.

Secondly, Abrahamic religions are no longer the norm of modern society. There aggressive fight is more of a last stand. Rather they have become the New Pagans. Where does Christianity survive in the USA? Mainly on the countryside. They are now considered the hicks by the people in the big cities that consider them backward. They now are the Pagans.

That is what old Pagan wisdom tells us: What you do to others, will one day inevitably also happen to you. And then you will start to feel what you did to others but did not allow yourselves to feel.

But does it please me? Do I celebrate it? No not at all. For with the downfall of these traditions a lot of Pagan wisdom incorporated in them will also be lost again. The revolutionary changes in our society challenge all traditions.

I wish people here all the wisdom in their endeavors.
 
Last edited:

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
My view:

I totally respect that young people seek new ways of spirituality.

I guess for many of them neo-pagan means something like: Mainstream society (Christianity) hates Pagans and they also reject us, so we are the new Pagans, let us identify as neo-pagans.

For people like me Paganism is no counter culture to modern western society, but elder and true traditions in their own right, in some ways different but in no way inferior to Abrahamist traditions with their grand claims and philosophies.

Many here seem to reject morals as society constructs. In Abrahamism this is indeed the case. It was formulated by people (they say inspired by their God) in books and then laid down on people as coming from God though a priesthood. It is very much a hierarchical order from above..

That is not how mores (including morals) in Pagan traditions work. They develop over time as best practices to find harmony with all beings in the environment. They are no constructs. no one constructed them, they grew naturally and change naturally with the environment. This wisdom is handed over from generation to generation. That is why it is called "tradition", which literally means "handed over". Trying to preserve and hand down the wisdom of our ancestors is Paganism.

In our modern society that is so quickly changing that it scatters all traditions (Abrahamic traditions as well) and makes people spiritual orphans, young people create their own subcultures and seek spirituality in them. These subcultures are no constructs and also evolve and dissolve naturally and in that sense they are like Pagan traditions,

The difference is that Pagan traditions are not the product of one generation but of many, many, many generations. And thus they develop notions we call higher values that are passed not so much by teaching, but almost unnoticeable. They are in the examples of parents and respected people, they are in the customs, they are in everything. You breath them and you eat them. And thus they survive often invisible.

A interesting example in another thread is where someone writes that people like Lemmy Kilmister of Motörhead are demigods. He is by many worshiped as a person breaking the norms.

That is only true in a musical sense, he had his own style and produced more decibels than anyone at the time. On an invitation I once visited one of his concerts in small theater that used to be a cinema, and I had a ring in my ears for three days after. It was so deafening that all songs sounded like a storm and in it was Lemmy statically singing with his head up to the mic. It was the worst concert I ever attended. I thought his music was horrible for a long time, until years later I happened to hear their album "No Sleep 'til Hammersmith (1981)" and realized it was quite good. Motorhead means speed trip and that rush it translates into music. Lemmy was a roady of Jimmy Hendrix who also was a master of translating his psychedelic experiences into music. And Lemmy's first band "Hawkwind" also did that stunningly well.

Now what makes Lemmy so special for his fans? Well he was a rock artist that lived by the five principles of Malboro, Johnny Walker, Speed, Women, and Rock and Roll. But that is not unique, but rather the norm in rock bands. To live on the wild side is nothing special here. What makes Lemmy special is that he indulged in all these and not went under.

The most destructive of all is the fame and idolizing that make people lose themselves and start living in a myth they themselves help create. But not Lemmy, Lemmy stayed Lemmy. And thus he managed to function while giving in to his vices and still stay on top of it. He remained the master of his actions, which is indeed exceptional. Walking on the edge for so long and not falling over is remarkable and few will pull that off. And he was honest enough to say people should not take an example of him in that respect.

But here is the thing that few young people in America will readily see. What made Lemmy so stable? The answer is tradition. Metal rockers in the US say: We recognized that Lemmy did not fit in like us. But that is not true at all. Like many other great British musicians, Lemmy is a typical Working Class kind of guy. In Britain "Working Class" means something. People are not ashamed of it, but proud of it. They are proud to be honest, hard working people who do not look down on others,but share and drink with each other. Lemmy never was an outcast. he was firmly grounded in his working class tradition and never lost contact with the people he grew up with. Because in the working class tradition they despise people who feel better. That is why Lemmy always stayed Lemmy, a good guy at heart. And a guy that kept on working his whole life with the ethos he learned from his tradition.

That is what tradition does for you. If gives you a foundation, a belonging, a place in the universe, a past and a future. It gives you values that give you direction to your actions and make you strong. To know what is right in every given situation because values guide you, goes beyond morals/laws imposed by society. To belong to group of people and share the same values gives people strength and inner happiness.

The downside of youth culture is that it is generational and rapidly changing. It is also naturally revolting and seeking the limits. It can destroy people, and also leave people disillusioned when they try to hold on to it.

It does not seek harmony with the wider environment which also translates in aggression and rejection of main stream society. This again creates stress. Search for magic has very much to do with seeking strength to resist rationally ordered society, but also seeking the limits of experience like with drugs.

Why do we see these things mostly in Western culture and especially in the USA?

For one because Western culture is still deeply rooted in Greek civilization. Even Abrahamism is to a great extend a reflection of that, but Jews, Romans, and Arabs hid where most of their ideas really came from. One of the particularities of Greek civilization is generational conflict. It is a common element in many of their myths. The new generation revolts to the previous generation. We do not find this in the rest of the world. You will not find the same generational conflicts in non-western cultures.

A second reason is the speed with which modern society changes. Every new generation now basically grows up in different society and has a different mindset. Their brains are literally structured differently than that of previous generation making them think and appreciate differently.

A third reason is that family structure has fallen to pieces. The different generations no longer live together. In southern Europe it is still normal that parents live in with their children and grand children. It is natural that it is grand parents that educate the grand children and pass on the traditions, while the parents are working. This is lost in western society.

Thus this cord that connects us with our ancestors has become broken, and that is very serious. Because if you believe the soul is indeed immortal and keeps reincarnating, then you may also understand that you are your ancestors and one day you will reappear as one of your offspring. And you want to hand them down the true values that make them succeed in life and find happiness.

Our most loving ancestors even protect us when they are dead. As guardian spirits/angels they guide us in life. That is what our ancestors believed. But in all Pagan traditions there was also tremendous fear of invoking malicious spirits. One could even say they were more busy in trying to avoid and appease malicious spirits than worshiping beneficial ones.

This is something that young generations who have lost connection with ancestral tradition rarely seem to understand. In wanting to provoke the norms or in ignorance they go a dangerous path. They are overconfident without any real knowledge. TV-series, fantasy books, and books on Paganism make them feel confident.

To reject what is wrong (repressive religion) and going against it, makes them feel good. Young people think overly rational. If A=false, then -A must be good. It is not that simple. First one has to realize that Abrahamic traditions themselves are deeply based on older Pagan traditions and adopted even more things Pagan as they spread. Even if it is forced upon us in the wrong manner as morals, that does not mean it is all wrong.

Secondly, Abrahamic religions are no longer the norm of modern society. There aggressive fight is more of a last stand. Rather they have become the New Pagans. Where does Christianity survive in the USA? Mainly on the countryside. They are now considered the hicks by the people in the big cities that consider them backward. They now are the Pagans.

That is what old Pagan wisdom tells us: What you do to others, will one day inevitably also happen to you. And then you will start to feel what you did to others but did not allow yourselves to feel.

But does it please me? Do I celebrate it? No not at all. For with the downfall of these traditions a lot of Pagan wisdom incorporated in them will also be lost again. The revolutionary changes in our society challenge all traditions.

I wish people here all the wisdom in their endeavors.

Not all neo-pagan traditions are based on what our ancestors did. Wicca was actually a modern religious creation. Even reconstructionist paths are essentially new creations.

There are a bunch of things that gave rise to neo-paganism. Pop culture neo-paganism applies neo-pagan concepts and rituals to modern elements of our culture. In some cases it may merely be the worship of an old God in the guise of a pop culture icon or the use of fictional themes to inform a theology. This is neo-pagan spirituality in that it grew out of the mix of movements and ideas that neo-paganism includes.
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
Not all neo-pagan traditions are based on what our ancestors did. Wicca was actually a modern religious creation. Even reconstructionist paths are essentially new creations.

There are a bunch of things that gave rise to neo-paganism. Pop culture neo-paganism applies neo-pagan concepts and rituals to modern elements of our culture. In some cases it may merely be the worship of an old God in the guise of a pop culture icon or the use of fictional themes to inform a theology. This is neo-pagan spirituality in that it grew out of the mix of movements and ideas that neo-paganism includes.

I should add that pop culture neo-paganism is not limited to a certain age bracket.
 
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