How important is Satan in your faith or worldview?

[natasha levchenko]

I think it is a great deal less sinister and malevolent than Satan in our culture. I wonder how Hindus would feel about the Goddess Maya? I would not want to be deceived and have the capacity to see things as they really are. To be enable to acheive enlightenment where my mind is freed from illusion and delusion. Perhaps that is a similar phenomenon to what Jesus talked about when He said the truth shall set ye free (John 8:32). Could it be that Salvation is actually a state of Christ consciousness that frees of us from deception and unreality (Satan) as Buddha consciousness leads to enlightenment

Jesus bore witness to the truth that sets men free, gave his perfect human life as a ransom for fallen man’s redemption, and under the greatest satanic pressure proved worthy to be God's vindicator. Moreover,
When Jesus said “the truth will set you free,” he was primarily referring to being set free from sin and death. Nevertheless, knowing the truth about God’s Word also sets us free from such things as superstition, fear of the dead, and the inordinate fear of dying.
Jesus didn't teach satan didn't exist .he was tempted by Satan the Devil.
In John 8:43,45, 46 we read:


43Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to[URL='https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/fn/r1/lp-e/1001070147/19']* my word. 44 You are from your father the Devil.That one was a murderer when he began,+ and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.+
45 Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me.46 Who of you convicts me of sin?+If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me?

That's the way I understand John 8:32
Thank you for a very interesting topic you raised )))[/URL]

 

[Deeje]

The problem with this argument is you are comparing Jesus to Satan. I wouldn't go there, but lets run with it. In regards historicity Jesus is believed by the majority of historians to have existed as an actual man who was born to a woman Mary, taught His disciples and was crucified. If you want to believe that Satan was also around in the form of a man or perhaps part man, part animal, then that's a very different proposition. No historian would vouch for the literal existence of such a character.

I am not comparing Jesus to satan....I am saying that a real Jesus was tempted by a real adversary who manifested himself in Eden as a guardian stationed there by God. When angels needed to carry out assignments on earth, they manifested in material form. We don't know if the angel who became satan transformed himself into a talking serpent or whether he simply used a snake like a ventriloquist uses a dummy. But I will accept the Bible as my truth rather than the opinions of men who were not even there.

If your narrative of the bible depends on literalism then I agree it does all come tumbling down like a house of cards. Is it the biblical literalist who is deceived or the one who perceives the spiritual truth within the stories? Jesus Himself spoke in parables so as to convey hidden spiritual truths to distinguish the faithful from the faithless, the seeing from the blind, the hearing from the deaf. So it would seem likely that the gospel writers and His Apostles would often speak in such a manner.

There are definitely times when parables conveyed truths at a deeper level, but mostly they were conveyed in a manner that helped the audience to understand what he was saying in relatively simple terms. Jesus wasn't sent to confuse his fellow Jews, he was sent to teach them how to worship their God acceptably.

If we want to talk about the beginning then we look to Genesis 1 where God creates the world in six days and then soon after in Genesis 2 when God creates the garden of Eden along with Adam and Eve. In Genesis 3 enter the serpent (Satan) who tempts Eve with the apple. We know what happens next and soon Adam and Eve are cast out of Eden and on that fateful day the serpent deprived of its legs, crawls on his made for all eternity to crawl in His belly. Of course the serpent is really Satan and He isn't really crawling on his belly because in good time he is one of the counsellors at God's side and have great chat to the Lord about His faithful servant Job 1. An incredible story unfolds and pretty soon Satan is out in the desert chatting away to Jesus, tempting Him for 40 days and 40 nights.

Wow...that is a very twisted version of events...not at all how I read the account. But if you want it to say those things, then that is your prerogative.

But if the story of Jesus and Satan is literally true, then so too might Job's story, then Adam and Eve and perhaps the literal creation of the world in six days six thousand years ago. If you want to believe that all to be literally true we all have that freedom of belief. It all looks as much a house of cards to me as my belief appears to you. So I too am with Jesus but with a different way of looking at the bible.

What cards did you build your house with? Something different to me? Your faith is yours and mine is mine.....but neither of us has any way to prove that what we believe is true. Time will tell I guess. I have faith in Jesus' words in John 6:44. No one comes to the son without an invitation from the Father.

 

[Marcion]

Of course not. We don't want the 'enlightened' Eastern mystics such as yourself to be in any way confused and brought down to the base level of us primitive Abrahamics!

Sarcasm doesn't make it any better.
An honest and fair debate is free of irony or sarcasm.

 

[Tazarah]

I was speaking to an RF member of another faith recently about Satan. In some faiths there is a belief in a literal who is this malevolent being in the spiritual realm that is responsible for a great deal of the evil that happens in the world. Its not part of my worldview as Satan is seen as part of the lower self.

The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

“The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 123.

The discussion took an almost inevitable and familiar direction that my very disbelief in Satan was a reflection of how powerful he really was. Afterall he had convinced me he didn't exist. Further my entire faith was in all likelihood founded on Satan's deception. Well it must be, if I didn't believe what he believed, what other explanation could there be! Further my irritation and unhappiness with such a conversation reflected a personal inadequancy on my part as well as my faith. Fortunately the conversation didn't last too long. It did leave me wondering about the benefits or risks of having a worldview that included a literal Satan. Perhaps Satan could be more helpful if seen as part of an allegorical narrative that teaches us spiritual truths or representative of aspects of our own nature we often struggle with.

Any comments and questions appreciated as always.

Satan is all of the evil and malevolent things that he is cracked up to be. But in reality, he cannot do anything unless it is allowed by God. If Satan is doing something then it is only because God is allowing him to do it. The people who believe that there is an actual war going on in heaven are lost and unlearned when it comes to biblical doctrine. God is in control of everything.

“Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?” [Amos 3:6]

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am not comparing Jesus to satan....I am saying that a real Jesus was tempted by a real adversary who manifested himself in Eden as a guardian stationed there by God. When angels needed to carry out assignments on earth, they manifested in material form. We don't know if the angel who became satan transformed himself into a talking serpent or whether he simply used a snake like a ventriloquist uses a dummy. But I will accept the Bible as my truth rather than the opinions of men who were not even there.

What makes more sense is that after the Baptist of Jesus He spent 40 days in the desert preparing for His Ministry. None of the gospels writers witnessed these events. The number 40 as we know comes up a great deal in the bible and often symbolises a time of testings.

The number 40 shows up often in the Bible. Because 40 appears so often in contexts dealing with judgment or testing, many understand it to be the number of trial and judgement. God has chosen this number to help emphasize times of trouble and hardship.

Here are some examples of the Bible’s use of the number 40 that stress the theme of testing or judgment:

In the Old Testament, when God destroyed the earth with water, He caused it to rain 40 days and 40 nights (Genesis 7:12). After Moses killed the Egyptian, he fled to Midian, where he spent 40 years in the desert tending flocks (Acts 7:30). Moses was on Mount Sinai for 40 days and 40 nights (exodus 24:18). Moses interceded on Israel’s behalf for 40 days and 40 nights (Deuteronomy 9:18-25). The Israelites wandered for 40 years (Deuteronomy 8:2-5). There are about 5 or 6 other instances too bu I think I've made my point. Other than Matthew 4:2 there were 40 days between Jesus’ resurrection and ascension (Acts of the apostles 1:3).

As the number 40 is symbolic and representation of a time of testing, so too is Satan representative of a time of personal testing. That is what the story is about. Those that wrote of the events were not there and have conveyed the meaning of this time of preperation with reference to the Hebrew Bible.

There are definitely times when parables conveyed truths at a deeper level, but mostly they were conveyed in a manner that helped the audience to understand what he was saying in relatively simple terms. Jesus wasn't sent to confuse his fellow Jews, he was sent to teach them how to worship their God acceptably.

Jesus was frequently misunderstood and there were complaints about being hard to follow. When Jesus explained about being born again Nicodemus didn't understand (John 3:1-7). When Jesus said He and the father were one the Jews picked up stones (John 10:30-35). Peter wasn't too accepting when Jesus told the disciples he would need to be killed and Jesus actually called Peter Satan (Matthew 16:21-23)! That didn't mean Peter was Satan or had Satan in him. He simply wasn't getting the bigger picture. So often Jesus wasn't well understood most of His people rejected Him.

Wow...that is a very twisted version of events...not at all how I read the account. But if you want it to say those things, then that is your prerogative.

I was demonstrating how ridiculous it becomes if we take many accounts in the bible literally. I don't think you understand irony too well.

What cards did you build your house with? Something different to me? Your faith is yours and mine is mine.....but neither of us has any way to prove that what we believe is true. Time will tell I guess. I have faith in Jesus' words in John 6:44. No one comes to the son without an invitation from the Father.

My Faith is founded on Jesus and the Bible too. Those who believe in Him have been arguing and even killing each other over disagreements. Christians have killed more Christians than any other people. Its good you acknowledge that time will tell. We both recognise how resolute each other is about our faith and we simply agree to disagree. Thanks for posting.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Sarcasm doesn't make it any better.
An honest and fair debate is free of irony or sarcasm.

I'm interested in the diversity of opinion about Satan and what he represents throughout different traditions. Its not a thread that's limited to Christians.

You are free to offer a non-religious neohumanist tantric yoga perspective.

 

[Cooky]

Thank you for sharing the Catholic perspective. If Satan really existed and exerted the influence he's claimed to have had, then it would obviously be helpful to be on your guard. Have you ever had any personal encounters with Satan? Hope you don't mind the personal question.

Absolutely. I notice that sometimes I do self-destructive things, that I know will not benefit me, like lashing out at someone, or harming my own body. Luckily, I have never allowed his influence to use me to hurt anyone else though.

...I think I know how Satan works through observation -he cannot alter anything physical. He operates through our psyche, and it's only after we allow it to occur once. After one time, he has found his way in and can do it again IMO. He often brings one of his friends with him when he returns.

 

[Stevicus]

I was speaking to an RF member of another faith recently about Satan. In some faiths there is a belief in a literal who is this malevolent being in the spiritual realm that is responsible for a great deal of the evil that happens in the world. Its not part of my worldview as Satan is seen as part of the lower self.

The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

“The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 123.

The discussion took an almost inevitable and familiar direction that my very disbelief in Satan was a reflection of how powerful he really was. Afterall he had convinced me he didn't exist. Further my entire faith was in all likelihood founded on Satan's deception. Well it must be, if I didn't believe what he believed, what other explanation could there be! Further my irritation and unhappiness with such a conversation reflected a personal inadequancy on my part as well as my faith. Fortunately the conversation didn't last too long. It did leave me wondering about the benefits or risks of having a worldview that included a literal Satan. Perhaps Satan could be more helpful if seen as part of an allegorical narrative that teaches us spiritual truths or representative of aspects of our own nature we often struggle with.

Any comments and questions appreciated as always.

It looks like I was the only one (so far) to have voted "I don't know." I think Satan symbolizes the ultimate villain in the eyes of many, whether or not he literally exists (or existed).

For some reason, I was just recalling a scene in the movie Animal House where one of the characters is going through a moral struggle, humorously symbolized by a devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other. They weren't actual sentient entities, but just different aspects of himself trying to come to terms. That may be what "Satan" actually is.

I don't know if there's any such thing as "good" or "evil" or any kind of "dark side of the force." It would seem reasonable, though, if one concludes that there is a powerful being of "good," then one might also conclude that there is an equal and opposite powerful being of "evil." But then, Satan is not really portrayed as God's "opposite," but rather portrayed as a rebellious subordinate who could be easily destroyed or imprisoned by God. The idea is that God has no "equal," and that "good" will ultimately prevail over "evil." But even that idea is questionable.

 

[Marcion]

I'm interested in the diversity of opinion about Satan and what he represents throughout different traditions. Its not a thread that's limited to Christians.

You are free to offer a non-religious neohumanist tantric yoga perspective.

I gave my reaction to your specific post and that suffices thank you, the subject has no interest for me as such.

 

[David T]

I was speaking to an RF member of another faith recently about Satan. In some faiths there is a belief in a literal who is this malevolent being in the spiritual realm that is responsible for a great deal of the evil that happens in the world. Its not part of my worldview as Satan is seen as part of the lower self.

The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

“The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 123.

The discussion took an almost inevitable and familiar direction that my very disbelief in Satan was a reflection of how powerful he really was. Afterall he had convinced me he didn't exist. Further my entire faith was in all likelihood founded on Satan's deception. Well it must be, if I didn't believe what he believed, what other explanation could there be! Further my irritation and unhappiness with such a conversation reflected a personal inadequancy on my part as well as my faith. Fortunately the conversation didn't last too long. It did leave me wondering about the benefits or risks of having a worldview that included a literal Satan. Perhaps Satan could be more helpful if seen as part of an allegorical narrative that teaches us spiritual truths or representative of aspects of our own nature we often struggle with.

Any comments and questions appreciated as always.

"Perhaps Satan could be more helpful if seen as part of an allegorical narrative that teaches us spiritual truths or representative of aspects of our own nature we often struggle with."

Ooops long winded muse sorry!!! Just means i liked your post.

There is this interesting duality in christianity in regards to the resurrection. On the one hand, we can have the literalists. Where the resurrection is a scientific emperical fact. On the otherhand, we can have the educated perspective, where its seen as metaphor symbolism.

This duality swings into the eucharist, where again we have literalists, it is the body of christ, to its symbolic.

One understands real intellectually, only as science empericism, the other understands real intellectually in regards to these conflicts as abstractive symbolism.

Neither i think are correct and yet both have some truth. At about this point in language everything begins to breakdown because we are attempting to make ourselves intellectually objective. I personally roll back into nature as objective and us subjective to nature in all aspects and discard notions of religion, science, culture and all human abstractions and feel.

Its hard for practioners of various metaphysics to realize that their leaders or gurus are artists. I say that, the brain instantly recognizes the word, it believes it understands but it does not.

Artists themselves struggle with exactly what metaphysics alludes to the unconscious, and they tend to "feel" through that more than they "intellectualize" about that. In music its first feel, then create. In normal individuals its learn the notes the theory, and maybe if you are lucky you can play the music correctly if you practice enough.

Metaphysics is delving into the unconscious and that is articulated theough time in an interconnected way. If metaphysics is being taught to split the world into intellectual fragments, organize them into fixed determined structures that is actually just my degree theologu and at worst philosophy nonsense which leads to political nonsense. It simply becomes superfical with religious drag is all.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I was speaking to an RF member of another faith recently about Satan. In some faiths there is a belief in a literal who is this malevolent being in the spiritual realm that is responsible for a great deal of the evil that happens in the world. Its not part of my worldview as Satan is seen as part of the lower self.

The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

“The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 123.

The discussion took an almost inevitable and familiar direction that my very disbelief in Satan was a reflection of how powerful he really was. Afterall he had convinced me he didn't exist. Further my entire faith was in all likelihood founded on Satan's deception. Well it must be, if I didn't believe what he believed, what other explanation could there be! Further my irritation and unhappiness with such a conversation reflected a personal inadequancy on my part as well as my faith. Fortunately the conversation didn't last too long. It did leave me wondering about the benefits or risks of having a worldview that included a literal Satan. Perhaps Satan could be more helpful if seen as part of an allegorical narrative that teaches us spiritual truths or representative of aspects of our own nature we often struggle with.

Any comments and questions appreciated as always.

The comment I have, is that Satan could careless if anyone believes in him or not, That means unfortunately Satan has people right where he wants them and people don't even realize it that their being had.

As long as Satan can keep people disbelieving that he exist, Satan has the advantage over them.
For those people would not even have an idea or clue who Satan is, if Satan was standing right in front of them.

Which there is coming the hour in the which Satan will be here on Earth, But unfortunately the majority of the people on earth will not even know who Satan is.
All because people are being deceived that Satan doesn't exist. So when Satan does come, Satan already has these people right where he wants them, As long as people disbelieve that Satan doesn't exist. That gives Satan the advantage over them. Unfortunately for those people will not even realize it, Until it's to late for them.
For this reason it is written in the book of Revelation 6:15-17--
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains"

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb"

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand"

For these people have been deceived that Satan doesn't exist. But now are found crying to the rocks and mountains to cover them, all because they been had by Satan and now Christ Jesus shows up on the scene and catches people worshipping Satan.

 

[Quintessence]

Like everything else out of Abrahamic mythos, it isn't part of my own mythos. That doesn't mean I lack any education about who and what that entity is within the context of Abrahamic mythos, though. It is, for better or worse, unavoidable to have familiarity with it in my country. I checked everything because that reflects the stories I have heard and been told by those who do follow Abrahamic mythos. I don't personally care about any of those stories, as again, it isn't part of my own mythos.

 

[David T]

Well no offense, I must disagree you. I know that Satan is a literal being. He was not created evil. He rebelled against God. He's not the only one either; as there were many so called fallen angels.

They were known as the archons/rulers. They were powerful beings who had authority in heaven and on earth. Now they use their power and authority for their own purposes instead of God's purpose. They agreed together since ancient times to wage war on God. Adam(mankind) became the easiest target because he had fallen in sin.

Some of them have already been locked up until judgment day. (You can thank God for that truly it is a very good thing!) But there are many more who are not locked up yet. They continue the revolt against God on earth.

No wonder our cities are filled with crime and gangs. Drugs, murder, sex trafficking. It's often because of the witchcraft being done that gives Satan dominion over these areas. He sets up a principality and that's it. The crime rate goes crazy etc. The strong man has taken over. Only someone stronger than the strong man can bind him.

You fight back against Satan by showing love. Loving everyone. Because satan has no permission to act when we love one another. He has permission through hatred, strife and such things. Being kind, sticking up for what is right even when it's not popular. And praying to the true God in Jesus name for other people. Praying for their benefit. That they'll be delivered from demons and that they'll be blessed. Saved. Delivered from drugs, and every type of demon or curse or spell.

Demons are as real as you or I. Except they're not physical entities. They're spirits. They move like the wind and are able to pass through physical objects such as doors etc. So beware of them because their most heinous action is to influence people's thoughts and thus their actions. He's not called the tempter for nothing. In some cases they may even insert thoughts into people's heads. They do this in such a way that the person thinks it is their own thoughts. So for example they start the thought off with "I" so the person thinks it is themselves. In this way they influence and control people.

They originate many "mental illnesses". They then perpetuate the problem through these thoughts. They can make people worry and have obsessive thoughts. For only one example (of many) Obsessive compulsive disorder can be one of the worst torments someone can face. This is often caused by demons. They keep putting worrisome thoughts in someone's mind until they become OCD.

" I know that Satan is a literal being"

This is how modern science arose in religion. What is meant by satan is a literal exactly? If an intellectual abstraction becomes the reality whether we say satan is literal or metaphor they share a common locus in the brain. At that locality a whole reality unfolds and its projected onto the world around us.

Now my daughter has zero clue about satan as metaphor or literal. I also know factually literally there is a much much larger world than simply human abstractionism. That tendency to make our abstractionism objective and the world around us subjective to that is not mentally healthy. I listened to a skitzoaffecrive individual for about 10 years go on and on about satan. He murdered his wife in a state of mind thinking she was satan. He then turned and was convinced that satan was the blame for her murder.

So literalism kept in check because you are sane for reasons that allow you to remain sane has bled into his thinking without realizing it. The falacy of "literal" satan exactly like "metaphor" or "no satan" are all problematic for identical reasons. All three can lead to fantasys that dont exist because the intellect is not primary.

 

[David T]

We think he's an actual dude. A being. Capable of deception, and trickery.

He is the great deciever. His greatest conquest was himself.

 

[David T]

I was speaking to an RF member of another faith recently about Satan. In some faiths there is a belief in a literal who is this malevolent being in the spiritual realm that is responsible for a great deal of the evil that happens in the world. Its not part of my worldview as Satan is seen as part of the lower self.

The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

“The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 123.

The discussion took an almost inevitable and familiar direction that my very disbelief in Satan was a reflection of how powerful he really was. Afterall he had convinced me he didn't exist. Further my entire faith was in all likelihood founded on Satan's deception. Well it must be, if I didn't believe what he believed, what other explanation could there be! Further my irritation and unhappiness with such a conversation reflected a personal inadequancy on my part as well as my faith. Fortunately the conversation didn't last too long. It did leave me wondering about the benefits or risks of having a worldview that included a literal Satan. Perhaps Satan could be more helpful if seen as part of an allegorical narrative that teaches us spiritual truths or representative of aspects of our own nature we often struggle with.

Any comments and questions appreciated as always.

Oh i had to add a comment. This topic is paramount in mental health in so many ways. Its where the emotional and intellectual get all tangled up.

 

[Thief]

I was speaking to an RF member of another faith recently about Satan. In some faiths there is a belief in a literal who is this malevolent being in the spiritual realm that is responsible for a great deal of the evil that happens in the world. Its not part of my worldview as Satan is seen as part of the lower self.

The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

“The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 123.

The discussion took an almost inevitable and familiar direction that my very disbelief in Satan was a reflection of how powerful he really was. Afterall he had convinced me he didn't exist. Further my entire faith was in all likelihood founded on Satan's deception. Well it must be, if I didn't believe what he believed, what other explanation could there be! Further my irritation and unhappiness with such a conversation reflected a personal inadequancy on my part as well as my faith. Fortunately the conversation didn't last too long. It did leave me wondering about the benefits or risks of having a worldview that included a literal Satan. Perhaps Satan could be more helpful if seen as part of an allegorical narrative that teaches us spiritual truths or representative of aspects of our own nature we often struggle with.

Any comments and questions appreciated as always.

I believe in a scheme of hierarchy
lesser and greater......in many facets

so...having a belief that Someone is the Almighty
there is an opposition

My God doesn't have a Name
so likewise the Adversary

am I wandering somewhere in between?

does seem that way

 

[allfoak]

I was speaking to an RF member of another faith recently about Satan. In some faiths there is a belief in a literal who is this malevolent being in the spiritual realm that is responsible for a great deal of the evil that happens in the world. Its not part of my worldview as Satan is seen as part of the lower self.

The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

“The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 123.

The discussion took an almost inevitable and familiar direction that my very disbelief in Satan was a reflection of how powerful he really was. Afterall he had convinced me he didn't exist. Further my entire faith was in all likelihood founded on Satan's deception. Well it must be, if I didn't believe what he believed, what other explanation could there be! Further my irritation and unhappiness with such a conversation reflected a personal inadequancy on my part as well as my faith. Fortunately the conversation didn't last too long. It did leave me wondering about the benefits or risks of having a worldview that included a literal Satan. Perhaps Satan could be more helpful if seen as part of an allegorical narrative that teaches us spiritual truths or representative of aspects of our own nature we often struggle with.

Any comments and questions appreciated as always.

Any perspective is a valid perspective.
We should be able to learn something from all perspectives.
We run into problems when we think that our perspective is the correct one.

Perspectives can be seen as the pearls in the parable of the pearl of great price.

Matthew 13:45-46 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Parable of the Pearl of Great Price
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls,
who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

This is how beliefs are created.
It is best not to allow beliefs to take hold for too long.
There is always another pearl.
Notice in order to replace one with the other the old ones must be completely abandoned.
If we think that our perspective is in some way the best perspective, it is on its way to becoming an ingrained belief.
Something that will be much harder to move on from in the future.
God is limitless.
This means that perspectives are also limitless and all completely valid as a means to move from one understanding to another.

Satan can be seen from many different perspectives.
Whatever works for the individual at any given time is the perspective they should use.
When i was a Christian i perceived life in a much different way than i do now.
Does this mean i was wrong then or maybe wrong now?
Not at all.
It means that i have been gathering pearls all of these years and my collection has changed considerably.
I have replaced the old with the new.
Limitless.

 

[InChrist]

I did not realize my real need for a Savior until I personally understood the real existence and malevolent nature of Satan actively affecting my life.

 

[nPeace]

The discussion took an almost inevitable and familiar direction that my very disbelief in Satan was a reflection of how powerful he really was. Afterall he had convinced me he didn't exist. Further my entire faith was in all likelihood founded on Satan's deception. Well it must be, if I didn't believe what he believed, what other explanation could there be! Further my irritation and unhappiness with such a conversation reflected a personal inadequancy on my part as well as my faith. Fortunately the conversation didn't last too long. It did leave me wondering about the benefits or risks of having a worldview that included a literal Satan. Perhaps Satan could be more helpful if seen as part of an allegorical narrative that teaches us spiritual truths or representative of aspects of our own nature we often struggle with.

Any comments and questions appreciated as always.

Hi... again.
Everything else seemed accurate but for this part.

Well it must be, if I didn't believe what he believed, what other explanation could there be!

I was wondering how come you thought it was fortunate the conversation didn't last too long, but you raised it here.
Perhaps you wanted to put it to rest, so to speak... and I agree there should be some closure. Although I thought there was.

So let's see where this leads.
Let's begin with a reference point... again.
The Bible - the original representation of the word of God - is not corrupt, but the interpretation of it most assuredly can be.
Are we both in agreement about this?

The first mention of any figure called Satan the Devil, comes from the Bible.
Job 1:6-12 American Standard Version (ASV)
6 Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them. 7 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil. 9 Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath, on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face. 12 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.

Footnotes:

1. Job 1:6 That is, the Adversary.
2. Job 1:8 Or, that
3. Job 1:10 Or, cattle
4. Job 1:12 Hebrew hand.

American Standard Version (ASV)

My questions are as follows:
Do Bahais see the account of Job as literal, or is the entire account allegorical? If yes, Why, and on what basis do they interpret it as such?
Who are the sons of God, Jehovah, Job, the adversary?
On that note....
Satan is a transliteration from the original word שָׂטָן which means adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act)

What is the heaven and earth?
Bahais believe that they interpretation is correct, on what basis?

We can start with this for the time being.
I am interested to know the response to these questions. Thanks.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think it is a great deal less sinister and malevolent than Satan in our culture. I wonder how Hindus would feel about the Goddess Maya? I would not want to be deceived and have the capacity to see things as they really are. To be enable to acheive enlightenment where my mind is freed from illusion and delusion. Perhaps that is a similar phenomenon to what Jesus talked about when He said the truth shall set ye free (John 8:32). Could it be that Salvation is actually a state of Christ consciousness that frees of us from deception and unreality (Satan) as Buddha consciousness leads to enlightenment freed from Maya?

They have a variety of views of Maya. Personally, I'm into Shaktism, which is a branch of what is called Hinduism. I don't view being here in this realm as a negative thing. There's fun, joy and beauty to be had. I don't view it as being decidved. But when you get tired of the ride, you can go Home. There's an out.