How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

[BilliardsBall]

To this day, some people still don't consider the Phantom Menace Star Wars canon. Alas, it's still Star Wars.

Without having to beat the same horse again, it's clear historically one group has altered their meanings in order to remove the possibility of another group's canon.

Yes, I know, it's an reversible argument that can go on for another two thousand years. "You changed it!" "No you did!" "You have theological bias!" "No, you do!"

I love you guys. I'm cool with letting it stay thereabouts.

As long as you realized that no one changed any Hebrew verses, merely they have differing interpretations of them...

 

[rosends]

Rosends,

The finger of G_d did the miracles in Egypt. Even the Egyptians acknowledged this.

Some synagogues use a finger pointer today to guide along the lines of text when reading. It is symbolic of the illuminating Spirit of G_d.

Jeremiah was told by G_d that we would have the flesh of our hearts circumcised by G_d so saying the finger of God illuminating my heart is creepy... is almost... creepy.

The term "etzba elokim" does not mean a literal finger though we use it in contradistinction to the hand of god visible at the reed sea. To say god has a literal finger is sacrilege in Judaism.

The yad (hand) that some synagogues use is made out of a number of different materials. Silver is no sine qua non, neither is the shape of a hand/finger.

The figure of speech about the flesh of the heart circumcised is one which has a place within the imagery of the tanach and judaism. Getting your heart fingered by a silver object is creepy.

 

[roger1440]

I personally know several couples in mixed marriages. In none of them, do the spouses identify as being half-a-religion. If anything, a few claim to be both, as in celebrating both religion's holidays.

I suppose it would depend on how one would define a Jew or Judaism. Like Christianity Judaism comes in many flavors. It is doubtful that an Orthodox Jew would go to Midnight Mass at a Catholic Church on Christmas Eve. A non-Christian celebrating Christmas or getting into the Christmas spirit as a secular holiday is much different than celebrating it as a religious holiday.

Mixed marriages are more common among those who are marginally religious. It wouldn’t take much to sever the thin thread they are clinging too. For that very reason both Judaism and Christianity recommend keeping with their own kind. Marrying within one’s own religion usually helps encourage and support the religion they share. Shared beliefs have shared responsibilities.

Normally I have a vivid imagination, but I can’t fathom a Rabbi marrying a woman Christian minister.

 

[metis]

Let me just mention that I am in a mixed marriage, Christianity and Judaism, and we do both. Works for us.

 

[roger1440]

Let me just mention that I am in a mixed marriage, Christianity and Judaism, and we do both. Works for us.

It does happen. Do you come from a very religious background? Chances are, probably not. In the beginning, did your mother say something like, "Why don't you find a nice Jewish girl."

 

[Muffled]

Except it's written by humans for humans, so tense very much needs to be taken into consideration.

I believe I am mistaken. I was thinking about another verse Isa 7:14.

So I will admit that Isaiah wa speaking but I also believe from context that he was speaking prophecy and "is" must be taken in that context not in the context of a current event.

For instance I can say there is a Rapture but that does not make it current.

 

[Muffled]

Flankerl, from all we know, is certainly Jewish, as are her mother, father, sisters and brother. So, if she is anybody's messiah, wouldn't it be safe to assume that she is the Jewish Messiah foretold in the scriptures?

I believe when Zehariah says that Jeshua stands as a model of the Messiah, that includes the name and your name is not Jeshua.

 

[Muffled]

Not really, and you might want to check this out as far as messianic predictions are concerned:

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

I checked one of those out and it wasn't a Messianic prophecy, so it sure looks like mis-information to me.

 

[Flankerl]

I believe when Zehariah says that Jeshua stands as a model of the Messiah, that includes the name and your name is not Jeshua.

Wait... how do you know my name?

 

[metis]

It does happen. Do you come from a very religious background? Chances are, probably not. In the beginning, did your mother say something like, "Why don't you find a nice Jewish girl."

I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church, stopped going there in my mid-20's to attend my wife's Catholic church, but didn't convert to her's until I was 30. I was happy there, taught classes for conversion for 14 years, but then my plane to the Vatican got hijacked to Jerusalem around 20 years ago-- very painful experience, but it really worked out well for us in the long run.

Our oldest daughter and her two daughters converted to Judaism about 10 years ago. Our youngest daughter is Catholic and raising her kids using parochial schools, and our son is secular. We never argue religion, attend each others' religious family ceremonies, and our grandkids are responding accordingly.

 

[metis]

I checked one of those out and it wasn't a Messianic prophecy, so it sure looks like mis-information to me.

Interpretation is always a bugger, especially in this arena, but I posted a lot more than just one. BTW, how do you supposedly know it wasn't a messianic prophecy whereas it has long been viewed as one of them? My guess is that you don't accept it for some rather obvious reasons, therefore it's convenient for you to label it as not being one.

About 15 years ago, I attended a three evening seminar taught by a Christian theologian who taught in the States, Canada, and Israel, and in his last session one of the things he said was that it is not possible to label Jesus as the Messiah as of yet because the messianic predictions have not been fulfilled. Now, he believes that Jesus likely will do as such during his "2nd coming", but until then...

 

[Hawkins]

Interpretation is always a bugger, especially in this arena, but I posted a lot more than just one. BTW, how do you supposedly know it wasn't a messianic prophecy whereas it has long been viewed as one of them? My guess is that you don't accept it for some rather obvious reasons, therefore it's convenient for you to label it as not being one.

About 15 years ago, I attended a three evening seminar taught by a Christian theologian who taught in the States, Canada, and Israel, and in his last session one of the things he said was that it is not possible to label Jesus as the Messiah as of yet because the messianic predictions have not been fulfilled. Now, he believes that Jesus likely will do as such during his "2nd coming", but until then...

Messianic prophecies are rather human expectations by custom, as they are not completely delivered from the Scripture. Moreover, Messianic concept as of today is based on Maimonides' idea while he's born in 1135 CE.

It is thus rather a tactics to make "Messianic prophecies" more legitimate than it should, in order to reject what is said by the NT Bible.

 

[metis]

Messianic prophecies are rather human expectations by custom, as they are not completely delivered from the Scripture. Moreover, Messianic concept as of today is based on Maimonides' idea while he's born in 1135 CE.

It is thus rather a tactics to make "Messianic prophecies" more legitimate than it should, in order to reject what is said by the NT Bible.

As a former Christian who taught theology, I very carefully checked it all out very thoroughly a couple of decades ago. If one takes the supposed messianic prophecies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled, and then check out the Tanakh references in context, the experience can be rather eye-opening to say the least.

The irony, as now being a Jew for 20 years, I appreciate Jesus more than I did when I was a Christian, but not as the Messiah nor as "God's only son". He was a reformer, and along with some other reformers then, he and they pointed out some problems that needed to be addressed, imo.

 

[Hawkins]

As a former Christian who taught theology, I very carefully checked it all out very thoroughly a couple of decades ago. If one takes the supposed messianic prophecies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled, and then check out the Tanakh references in context, the experience can be rather eye-opening to say the least.

The irony, as now being a Jew for 20 years, I appreciate Jesus more than I did when I was a Christian, but not as the Messiah nor as "God's only son". He was a reformer, and along with some other reformers then, he and they pointed out some problems that needed to be addressed, imo.

In the end, if God exists, then we are all guessing what is said about the Messiah. The Jews are not more legitimate in interpreting what is said. The whole purpose of NT is to point out that the Jews are no longer legitimate.

So it is just a bet with faith that God is on which side. So just don't sound as if the Jews are more legitimate. That's the point.

That being said, we Christians consider the NT is legitimate because there are direct witnesses willing to martyr for what they said. As for prophecy, we consider something like Isaiah 52 as the Messianic prophecies, not necessary in accordance to what today's Jews said based on the modern Messianic concept developed in 1135AD

 

[metis]

The hidden question is rather, what is "Tanakh references in context", how its contents are dated? The answer however is, what we have now is after AD.

The dating issue is what I recommend that is one item a reader should focus in on. Since messianic prophecies deal with supposed future events, the "AD" issue really doesn't make sense. Either Jesus did or did not fulfill all the references is the real issue.

Anyhow, I feel very uncomfortable getting into this because my intent is not to undermine anyone's faith, so I'm going to stop now.

 

[Hawkins]

The dating issue is what I recommend that is one item a reader should focus in on. Since messianic prophecies deal with supposed future events, the "AD" issue really doesn't make sense. Either Jesus did or did not fulfill all the references is the real issue.

Anyhow, I feel very uncomfortable getting into this because my intent is not to undermine anyone's faith, so I'm going to stop now.

Sorry, I meant to say the dating of today's Messianic concept of today's Jews.

In the end, if God exists, then we are all guessing what is said about the Messiah. The Jews are not more legitimate in interpreting what is said. The whole purpose of NT is to point out that the Jews are no longer legitimate.

So it is just a bet with faith that God is on which side. So just don't sound as if the Jews are more legitimate. That's the point.

That being said, we Christians consider the NT is legitimate because there are direct witnesses willing to martyr for what they said. As for prophecy, we consider something like Isaiah 53 as the Messianic prophecies, not necessary in accordance to what today's Jews said based on the modern Messianic concept developed in 1135AD

 

[metis]

Sorry, I meant to say the dating of today's Messianic concept of today's Jews.

In the end, if God exists, then we are all guessing what is said about the Messiah. The Jews are not more legitimate in interpreting what is said. The whole purpose of NT is to point out that the Jews are no longer legitimate.

So it is just a bet with faith that God is on which side. So just don't sound as if the Jews are more legitimate. That's the point.

That being said, we Christians consider the NT is legitimate because there are direct witnesses willing to martyr for what they said. As for prophecy, we consider something like Isaiah 52 as the Messianic prophecies, not necessary in accordance to what today's Jews said based on the modern Messianic concept developed in 1135AD

Thanks for the clarification.

BTW, I don't go around "legitimizing" religions, as to me they're all are probably doing their best to make heads and tails of this all.

 

[Hawkins]

Thanks for the clarification.

BTW, I don't go around "legitimizing" religions, as to me they're all are probably doing their best to make heads and tails of this all.

To me, you are doing so by quoting a less legitimate source then sound as if it is representative. In Christianity, to say that Messianic prophecies will be fulfilled after Jesus' second coming is never a popular view, plus that the Messianic concept of today's Jews is seldom used as a standard in Christianity.

 

[roger1440]

I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church, stopped going there in my mid-20's to attend my wife's Catholic church, but didn't convert to her's until I was 30. I was happy there, taught classes for conversion for 14 years, but then my plane to the Vatican got hijacked to Jerusalem around 20 years ago-- very painful experience, but it really worked out well for us in the long run.

Our oldest daughter and her two daughters converted to Judaism about 10 years ago. Our youngest daughter is Catholic and raising her kids using parochial schools, and our son is secular. We never argue religion, attend each others' religious family ceremonies, and our grandkids are responding accordingly.

I’m confused. Where does your Jewishness enter the picture? Tell me about this hijack thing. Are there any links to a news story on the Internet? I would like to read about it. As for me, I don’t consider myself religious. I have gone to a few churches in the past and lean a little towards Protestantism. I probably know more about the Bible then most people, but that doesn’t say much. Most people I have come into contact with know very little about the Bible. In the last 15 years I have had two Jewish girlfriends, not at the same time, LOL. I have no idea how King Solomon was able to juggle 1,000 women. I’m not sure if he was blessed or cursed, the jury is still out on that one I guess. The Jewish women I had dated were more secular. They didn’t follow Kosher Laws. They pretty much just celebrated the major holidays.

Funny thing is, I had more problems with a Catholic girlfriend I had many years ago. Once time I had borrowed a movie from the local Christian book store on Martin Luther. She wouldn’t watch it with me. It was if it was possessed. A lot of Christians know very little about church history. Her mother told her Luther had left the church to marry a nun. Truth is, Luther had never left the church. He was excommunicated. His game plan was to reform the church, not get thrown out of it. He did later marry a nun. A nun who had left the church.

 

[metis]

I’m confused. Where does your Jewishness enter the picture? Tell me about this hijack thing. Are there any links to a news story on the Internet? I would like to read about it. As for me, I don’t consider myself religious. I have gone to a few churches in the past and lean a little towards Protestantism. I probably know more about the Bible then most people, but that doesn’t say much. Most people I have come into contact with know very little about the Bible. In the last 15 years I have had two Jewish girlfriends, not at the same time, LOL. I have no idea how King Solomon was able to juggle 1,000 women. I’m not sure if he was blessed or cursed, the jury is still out on that one I guess. The Jewish women I had dated were more secular. They didn’t follow Kosher Laws. They pretty much just celebrated the major holidays.

Funny thing is, I had more problems with a Catholic girlfriend I had many years ago. Once time I had borrowed a movie from the local Christian book store on Martin Luther. She wouldn’t watch it with me. It was if it was possessed. A lot of Christians know very little about church history. Her mother told her Luther had left the church to marry a nun. Truth is, Luther had never left the church. He was excommunicated. His game plan was to reform the church, not get thrown out of it. He did later marry a nun. A nun who had left the church.

I'm gonna have to be very brief as I'm leaving to do some shopping with my wife in a few minutes, and she dictates my schedule, my calender, and my to-do assignments-- I'm so oppressed.

In Judaism, if one converts, they are looked at and considered as if they've been Jewish all their life. IOW, one becomes one with the "family", much like I did with my wife's family when I married her.

The "high-jacking" reference was tongue-in-cheek reference to events that led to my unexpected conversion to Judaism. Like Woody Allen said, when we plan our lives out, God just laughs.

The church I grew up in was a fundamentalist Lutheran church (yes, there still is such a thing). What you say about Luther is true, but let me also add he died a broken man because he believed he created a nightmare with churches splitting off from each other and literally fighting-- hardly Paul's reference to the church being "one body".

I am not a biblical literalist-- far from it-- a long story.

Sorry-- gotta go.

BTW, thanks for posting your experiences as I really do find it interesting.