HOW is God "Eternal"?

[Deeje]

What was god's nature before he became a creator (which makes sense, language wise)?

Re-read it. Another question instead, if we don't know what god was before, then would that mean jesus didn't know about him either?

Wouldn't you know god's nature before he was a creator through jesus words of the bible?

Since Jesus is a creation of his Father (his very first creation according to scripture. Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15-17) how could he know what God was before his creation? Do you know what your mother and father were before they were your parents? Don't you have to be told what sort of people they were from others?

Jesus certainly knows his Father better than any other person in existence. He has told us all we "need" to know about him.....not necessarily all we "want" to know about him. Would we comprehend it anyway?

 

[Etritonakin]

He was not a Creator until he began to create. The phrase “in the beginning” means that at some point in his eternal existence, he became a Creator. God himself had no beginning.

As to what he was before that, perhaps we will never know....?

At the very least, that point was A development -which causes me to wonder what developments led up to that point -even if some of those developments were in consideration/imagination.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Since Jesus is a creation of his Father (his very first creation according to scripture. Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15-17) how could he know what God was before his creation? Do you know what your mother and father were before they were your parents? Don't you have to be told what sort of people they were from others?

Jesus certainly knows his Father better than any other person in existence. He has told us all we "need" to know about him.....not necessarily all we "want" to know about him. Would we comprehend it anyway?

That would mean both christians and jesus only know the father's nature after he created the world and people?

That would mean you are taking his word for god's nature since you (christians in general) can't know who he is directly?

(Wouldn't the analogy between knowing your mother and father before you were born only apply to humans but not to god given the role of jesus in christianity compared to someone else?)

 

[Deeje]

That would mean both christians and jesus only know the father's nature after he created the world and people?

It means that Jesus knows the Father better than anyone, having been at his side for eons before the creation of anything else. Jesus was assigned the task of bringing all creation into existence, so no one is more intimately acquainted with creation than he is. He was working at his Father's side during the whole process....and heaven knows how much education he received from his Father before the creative process even began?

That would mean you are taking his word for god's nature since you (christians in general) can't know who he is directly?

Don't we take other's word for who or what someone is before we meet them? Since Jesus was intimately involved with his Father for who knows how many billions or even trillions of years before anything else existed.....who better to explain his Father to us than him?

(Wouldn't the analogy between knowing your mother and father before you were born only apply to humans but not to god given the role of jesus in christianity compared to someone else?)

How well do you think you'd know someone if you spent your whole life with them?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It means that Jesus knows the Father better than anyone, having been at his side for eons before the creation of anything else. Jesus was assigned the task of bringing all creation into existence, so no one is more intimately acquainted with creation than he is. He was working at his Father's side during the whole process....and heaven knows how much education he received from his Father before the creative process even began?

When you say heaven and working by his side, do you mean a deity form like person and jesus being a spirit human form (thinking of movies, actually; I don't have a concept of god and jesus if you can explain it to me to get an idea?)?

Don't we take other's word for who or what someone is before we meet them? Since Jesus was intimately involved with his Father for who knows how many billions or even trillions of years before anything else existed.....who better to explain his Father to us than him?

It depends on how much you trust the person you speak with. If I came to you and you told me about jesus and god, I would need some criteria maybe inner as well as outer to find credit in what you say before taking your word for it (putting it in my life). Likewise, it seems christian take christ words pretty easily compared to others.

I likened to other religions with whom god talks to them directly. Why is this not so in christianity? What about god is putting a barrier between him and humans (from JW perspective)?

How well do you think you'd know someone if you spent your whole life with them?

Theoretically? Very well. I'm not sure why christians would think they can't know god intimately just as jesus, though. Jesus wasn't "that" far ago to where I'd put him in the worship category; that's just me, though.

I get what you're saying.

 

[Deeje]

When you say heaven and working by his side, do you mean a deity form like person and jesus being a spirit human form (thinking of movies, actually; I don't have a concept of god and jesus if you can explain it to me to get an idea?)

I think we can forget movies and just concentrate on what the Bible says because when it comes to God and his Christ, the Bible is the only source of information we have in this day and age. God's last prophet was Jesus Christ, so we have to trust his words recorded by his apostles who spent three and a half years as his constant companions.

Spirit beings exist in the spirit realm....invisible to human eyes. Material beings cannot exist there, because they are designed to live in a completely different realm. Spirit creatures do not need external things to keep living, (air, food, and water) like material beings do.

As a spirit entity, God has always existed...he alone is eternal, (i.e. having no beginning and no end.) All other intelligent life forms had a beginning. God's son was his first creation. This spirit son is totally unique, (only begotten) as the only direct creation of God. Jesus then became the "master worker" alongside his Father in that creative process. God was the one who brought all the raw materials into existence and they were fashioned by his son into all that exists both in heaven and in the material universe.

God's existence was unknown by anyone but himself as he dwelt in a very self-contained way in his realm, needing nothing. He does not tell us why he decided to become a Creator, but his primary attribute is LOVE...so perhaps love needed sharing and to be reciprocated. Its the one thing that God cannot force his free willed creatures to do.....love him.
When Jesus came to earth in human form, it was to fulfill a mission, and then to return to heaven, where he was before.

It depends on how much you trust the person you speak with. If I came to you and you told me about jesus and god, I would need some criteria maybe inner as well as outer to find credit in what you say before taking your word for it (putting it in my life). Likewise, it seems christian take christ words pretty easily compared to others.

I know no one as trustworthy as Jesus Christ. If God trusted him to fulfill a very difficult mission to save the human race, then I can trust him too.

I likened to other religions with whom god talks to them directly. Why is this not so in christianity? What about god is putting a barrier between him and humans (from JW perspective)?

The barrier between humans and God is sin. It is the imperfection that came with the penalty for disobedience meted out to Adam and his wife. It was a genetic inheritance that we did not ask for and we had no way to fix it....so God sent Jesus in human form to pay the debt that Adam left for all his children. It was a supreme act of love on the part of the Father and his son.

We also see a very real presence of satan and his rebel angels in the world. They are responsible for the mess the world is in and for alienating people from God. The devil has an agenda and he will stop at nothing to lure people away from the true God. He has created a religious empire to cater for every fallen human need to worship. He has created false gods for people to go to, with rituals to follow, and he will present himself as an "angel of light" so that people won't see his real personality or twig to his wicked agenda.

Theoretically? Very well. I'm not sure why christians would think they can't know god intimately just as jesus, though. Jesus wasn't "that" far ago to where I'd put him in the worship category; that's just me, though.

I get what you're saying.

We can know God intimately just as you can get to know anyone with whom you spend a great deal of time.
Its like having a pen-friend....since our communication is usually in written form. I can speak to God directly through the channel that he has provided with prayer, but God answers me with scripture. His spirit points me to the verses he wants me to read. We also have elders in our congregations who can help with concerns or questions. I do a lot of personal research as well, so I feel like I am walking and talking with God every day.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think we can forget movies and just concentrate on what the Bible says because when it comes to God and his Christ, the Bible is the only source of information we have in this day and age. God's last prophet was Jesus Christ, so we have to trust his words recorded by his apostles who spent three and a half years as his constant companions.

Believe me. If only I could think of this not as a movie-like view. Christianity (Islam etc) are so far from reality that I can't even put into words when I walk out my door.

How did the bible convince you what it says has the true information about god?

Spirit beings exist in the spirit realm....invisible to human eyes. Material beings cannot exist there, because they are designed to live in a completely different realm. Spirit creatures do not need external things to keep living, (air, food, and water) like material beings do.

Hmm...

Hm. Got me thinking. JW doesn't believe in spirits after death? What is the difference between deceased spirits and "spirit creatures"?

As a spirit entity, God has always existed...he alone is eternal, (i.e. having no beginning and no end.) All other intelligent life forms had a beginning. God's son was his first creation. This spirit son is totally unique, (only begotten) as the only direct creation of God. Jesus then became the "master worker" alongside his Father in that creative process. God was the one who brought all the raw materials into existence and they were fashioned by his son into all that exists both in heaven and in the material universe.

Spirit entity? What does that mean?

I know other christians describe god as love, grace, etc. Is that true with JW or is it more of a noun rather than adjectives to describe it?

God's existence was unknown by anyone but himself as he dwelt in a very self-contained way in his realm, needing nothing. He does not tell us why he decided to become a Creator, but his primary attribute is LOVE...so perhaps love needed sharing and to be reciprocated. Its the one thing that God cannot force his free willed creatures to do.....love him.

"He does not tell us why he decided to be come a creator; god cannot force".... the way you put this sounds more like you know god more than what the bible says. Does the bible say that he didn't tell you or it's just not mentioned? (Mind you, the workin's of the world can't fit into one book, right?)

When Jesus came to earth in human form, it was to fulfill a mission, and then to return to heaven, where he was before.

Ummm... How do you translate this to more concrete form? (Or can it be done or I'm just in denial?)

I know no one as trustworthy as Jesus Christ. If God trusted him to fulfill a very difficult mission to save the human race, then I can trust him too.

When you read the bible, do you "hear" god speaking to you to tell you this?

I know books are cool but sometimes I think you have a relationship with the book (god's words)?

The barrier between humans and God is sin. It is the imperfection that came with the penalty for disobedience meted out to Adam and his wife. It was a genetic inheritance that we did not ask for and we had no way to fix it....so God sent Jesus in human form to pay the debt that Adam left for all his children. It was a supreme act of love on the part of the Father and his son.

Yes. But why do you think you're deprive in that way? Is it an internal feeling that sin separates you from god because of your fore bearers' actions?

When I read the bible, I read about god and christ. "God loves man" just reads as is. Where did you get that he is anymore than what is literally stated in scripture?

We also see a very real presence of satan and his rebel angels in the world. They are responsible for the mess the world is in and for alienating people from God. The devil has an agenda and he will stop at nothing to lure people away from the true God. He has created a religious empire to cater for every fallen human need to worship. He has created false gods for people to go to, with rituals to follow, and he will present himself as an "angel of light" so that people won't see his real personality or twig to his wicked agenda.

Oh my gosh, this sounds more like a movie. What are satan, angels,and devil, "religious empire"???

We can know God intimately just as you can get to know anyone with whom you spend a great deal of time.

How so? (Bible aside)

Its like having a pen-friend....since our communication is usually in written form. I can speak to God directly through the channel that he has provided with prayer, but God answers me with scripture. His spirit points me to the verses he wants me to read. We also have elders in our congregations who can help with concerns or questions. I do a lot of personal research as well, so I feel like I am walking and talking with God every day.

Every one has their way of communicating with god. Is it only with scripture?

That, and to those who read scripture in full, are they missing out on something if they haven't picked up on god's love (beyond what it says literally)?

To those who read the bible and knew god was not for them, are they reading something wrong? Should it grab them on first impact?

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Many who consider the word "ETERNAL" in reference to God believe it applies not only to existence, but existence in a complex, self-aware state.... "I have always been here -I have always looked out from behind these eyes" as someone once wrote.

This would mean that God could not have been the initiator of himself. He would simply have been.

The best scientific explanation thus far for why anything at all exists is.... "It just was". However, "It" is seen to be something which changes and develops.

If God is essentially composed of everything which exists -if God is that is -and developed from simplicity to the point of being able to state "I AM THAT AM" -the beginning and end -that which was, is and is to come -God would be no less eternal.

Do we not say of ourselves "I was" when referring to a point before we were able to say "I am"?

If that is the case, God's self-realization and mastery of his own nature ("everything" becoming self-aware and master of its destiny) would essentially be an understanding of -and mastery of -evolution in its broadest sense.

Why would God not then employ that idea in creating? Would it even have been possible to ignore that basic aspect of his own nature? Creation and evolution are two different aspects of the same overall reality. The only possible question would be which was required at any point.
Would not any thing we discovered to be true about reality be indicative of God's nature?

Rom 1:19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Okay, lemme drop some terms on you.

So there's actually three words:

1. Eternal - literally "outside of time", not to be confused with interminable "without end". Think about a job that you really really hate, yet pays the bills. Think about how slowly time drags on. Or think about how fast some time moves while with a loved one.A person likewise outside of time is unable to be moved by age, but can probably die by accident.
   
2. Everlasting - "lasting" "forever" as in a food said to be everlasting has such preservatives that in the absence of other factors will never rot or dry to dust.
   
3. Immortal - Refers only to living things (you cannot modify concepts like immortal love, nor inanimate objects). "Not" "dying". An immortal probably has some Wolverine-style regeneration, only more so. Think the Wu from 3 x 3 Eyes.

As you can see, any depiction of Hell that is everlasting damnation would be extremely bad. It would also be distinctly at odds with what God actually is, as a loving and forgiving God. Eternal damnation, however, has a potential for ending, making it somewhat okay.

God, therefore is eternal in that he exists outside of time. If God believes there is a problem in the way that I live for example, God could appear to me in the present, or address the problem with my great grandparents when they are kids. Likewise, prophecies made may happen in linear time, cyclical time, or eternal (always be happening, such as the sunrise/sunset). This also means that when God sent Christ to save all sinners "well what about all those people before Jesus? They're damned right?" No, they aren't. Jesus died to save people before him too.

 

[Etritonakin]

Okay, lemme drop some terms on you.

So there's actually three words:

1. Eternal - literally "outside of time", not to be confused with interminable "without end". Think about a job that you really really hate, yet pays the bills. Think about how slowly time drags on. Or think about how fast some time moves while with a loved one.A person likewise outside of time is unable to be moved by age, but can probably die by accident.
   
2. Everlasting - "lasting" "forever" as in a food said to be everlasting has such preservatives that in the absence of other factors will never rot or dry to dust.
   
3. Immortal - Refers only to living things (you cannot modify concepts like immortal love, nor inanimate objects). "Not" "dying". An immortal probably has some Wolverine-style regeneration, only more so. Think the Wu from 3 x 3 Eyes.

As you can see, any depiction of Hell that is everlasting damnation would be extremely bad. It would also be distinctly at odds with what God actually is, as a loving and forgiving God. Eternal damnation, however, has a potential for ending, making it somewhat okay.

God, therefore is eternal in that he exists outside of time. If God believes there is a problem in the way that I live for example, God could appear to me in the present, or address the problem with my great grandparents when they are kids. Likewise, prophecies made may happen in linear time, cyclical time, or eternal (always be happening, such as the sunrise/sunset). This also means that when God sent Christ to save all sinners "well what about all those people before Jesus? They're damned right?" No, they aren't. Jesus died to save people before him too.

Interesting. I have never heard anyone say God could visit any time in human history as if it were still happening. My brain would require the theory behind that.
I do believe that God's plan provides for all to be saved, but not in that way, as I understand it so far.

From what I have read in biblical scripture, the dead are as "asleep" from their perspective until resurrection -not knowing the passage of time -like when you go to sleep and wake up. For example, the thief on the cross was to be in "paradise" with Christ that day -but Christ did not even leave Earth that day -however, the next instant (from his perspective) after the thief closed his eyes he would awake to the future paradise the Earth (and then beyond) will have become -ruled by Christ.
Those living who are "in Christ" at is return will be made immortal just after the dead in Christ -described as "them which sleep". Those in the first resurrection are called first fruits. They will literally govern Earth under Christ (then outward into the whole creation later).
Then, after a thousand years "the rest of the dead" are resurrected and judged according to their works (as opposed to specific beliefs, etc.). Some whose works have been good will receive life then -others will be further purified ("saved, yet so as by fire").

It seems to me that we would have to be outside of time for God to visit us in such a manner.
I don't know -but I have a problem with time travel in general.
First... we (as essentially emergent patterns) are made of the same stuff as the past. That is even hinted at in the saying "Throw your bread upon the waters, and it will come back to you after many days". Those atoms will get recycled and may be bread again one day. That of which we are composed is essentially recycled. Our atoms could each have once been a part of many things -trees, rocks, dinosaurs, platypus, gnus -who knows?

Anyway -my point is that if time travel were possible... each instant would have to be made of new material. If someone from the present were to go into the past, the present would lose material and the past would gain material.
I think (just a guess) that God is basically everything -that "One" self-aware and creative everything can be infinitely subdivided -and so his position would allow for any change -but I don't think our position allows us to be visited in the past. Theoretically, if all things were brought to a previous state, it would be as if it were the past -but still be forward in order of events.
It would also be much easier to just tweak the present, anyway.
I guess we'll find out the specifics eventually!

On that subject... it is written that this present experience -the former things -will eventually no longer be remembered or called to mind!
Human history was necessary to create a specific future -but then it will essentially be deleted from memory! All of this horrific stupidity nullified -everything made new and the past no longer a consideration! It seems far-fetched, but it might be as simple as the fact that I am able to tie my shoes -yet I can't remember learning how!

 

[Aman Uensis]

Kudos to scientists & mathematicians, for discovering the eternal nature of Jehovah God!

Infinity can be used both ways though. In the presence of infinity there are no absolute truths. If we presume infinity to extend both forwards in time and backwards then there is no one point of origin nor is there an end.

Therefore, we can neither discount the possibility that God itself was a random occurrence any more than the possibility that God was... well, God. Theists may reject the notion that we humans are random occurrences of material matter but what if we were indeed created by God and God was the random occurrence? The way that we ourselves are able to create things and bestow purpose upon these creations suggests a layered existence, kind of like a Russian matryoshka doll. The presence of infinity allows for all such possibilities while disproving none.

Either way... infinity is a downright *******.

 

[rational experiences]

For a human being to be talking, he has to first own a human life to talk.

He is standing on the origin of stone, stone. STone is origin...a planet.

He stands living within an atmosphere and then thinks and talks and tells stories.

And said....God, a male, yet is talking about history also O God the Earth.

Where both came from....as a God O and also his head as the thinker.

And he told you, from the ETERNAL. Which is a story that says...always existed, always had existed, always will exist.

Yet humans own death.

So a human male was discussing where both his life presence, his body and also the O body of God, where it came from.

And said from the ETERNAL...for both forms had separated from the eternal for the same reason.

A spiritual reason.

Space and O God bodies the original separation.

The spirit who caused the separation, in whose image we own.....human form...released us out of spirit after the Nature Garden, and after animals.

Proving it is an eternal body of androgynous origins, not sexual and not a sexual being.

Owning no definition at all.

The male thinking these stories, did think for his human invention....science.

For he wanted to go back to the ETERNAL...but you cannot convert a lower body back into a higher body.....which was his science lesson. Never change natural.

And spiritually he had not yet learnt his lesson.

So he did science, the atmospheric stone gas heavenly body reacted, and converted and he was attacked. And his life/body/spirit was converted as a male science group. And then O God as a reactive mass...science formed his image in the heavenly body.....as machine owned/communicated radio wave/radiation feed back.

How human voice and images got recorded as the IMAGE by O God reaction, science.

The meaning ETERNAL.

Reason of proof, science of the phenomena studies proved that God came from a spiritual place, due to evil spirit bodies and the bodies of angels, manifested.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

There are more kinds of beetles than of any other life form.

From this we rightly infer that god is inordinately fond of beetles.

They help to clean His earth, and to maintain the balance that exists in nature? Sounds good to me.

 

[Martin]

It’s interesting that science has discovered a unique quality about energy: it can “neither be created, nor destroyed. Energy can only be transferred or changed from one form to another.“

The Laws of Thermodynamics | Boundless Chemistry

Law of Conservation of Mass Energy

Now, if it can’t be created, what does that mean? This: that it’s always been in existence.
And God is not material; He is invisible, an Intelligent Being who has always existed, the Source behind the origin of the material universe & the laws governing it. (And ultimately behind all the forms of energy in the universe: electromagnetic, thermal, nuclear, etc.)

Science has unwittingly answered your question.... unfortunately, they won’t acknowledge it as an answer.

Kudos to scientists & mathematicians, for discovering the eternal nature of Jehovah God!

Laws like conservation of energy only have meaning after the big bang. Prior to big bang is still a mystery.
Science and religion are really different fields of enquiry, and conflating them only leads to confusion.

 

[rational experiences]

Science is only about God O earth mass energy.

From building his designed machine to abstracting resource to operate his machines.

Natural life lives inside water oxygen portion heavens. The rest heavens sits in space.

We knowingly live by food.

Water has food...microbial bodies. That are not enough food to sustain life. We eat food from the garden or animal body.

Claiming garden plus animals support our life. Therefore keep them safe.

Science looks back. Claims all other life invalid.

Why did life get attacked dying saved yet irradiated sacrificed. Science does not believe we are humans first.

Fake theism.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I
It is interesting to consider the fact that DNA-based "evolution" is actually a sort of intelligent designer [by one definition - "able to vary its state or action in response to varying situations, varying requirements, and past experience] -but one that is not -of itself -aware that it is such. It does makes design decisions based on input for a specific purpose

While I agree to an extent with the statement that evolution is a "designer", this is a misrepresentation of the actual process. There is no "purpose" or "intent" or any kind of "planning" going on.

By any and all accounts, genetic mutations (= the source of the changes) are random.
There is no "agent deciding" somewhere to make mutation X happen "because it will be beneficial for this or that". This is not how it works at all.

It could also be said that our ability to understand and manipulate DNA-based evolution -whether it was created or not -is DNA-based evolution becoming aware of [and mastering] itself -as we are composed of it.

By the same token, you could say that in us, the universe itself becomes aware and we "are" the universe looking back at itself, as practically all the atoms we are composed of were at one point forged in the cores of stars who were kind enough to explode and spread their inner elements out into the galaxy - we are ultimately made from stardust.

However, I don't see how such poetic concepts are helpful to the point.

It represents only a portion of everything on a human level, whereas God may be similar -but all-inclusive)

So god = the universe?
If yes, I just call it the universe.

 

[Audie]

While I agree to an extent with the statement that evolution is a "designer", this is a misrepresentation of the actual process. There is no "purpose" or "intent" or any kind of "planning" going on.

By any and all accounts, genetic mutations (= the source of the changes) are random.
There is no "agent deciding" somewhere to make mutation X happen "because it will be beneficial for this or that". This is not how it works at all.




By the same token, you could say that in us, the universe itself becomes aware and we "are" the universe looking back at itself, as practically all the atoms we are composed of were at one point forged in the cores of stars who were kind enough to explode and spread their inner elements out into the galaxy - we are ultimately made from stardust.

However, I don't see how such poetic concepts are helpful to the point.



So god = the universe?
If yes, I just call it the universe.

The words create, design are unfortunate in the
context of evolution as they are words that
describe human activity.

Still, we lack a more suitable word so we
say that water vapor in the air creates
frosr crystal patterns on a window.

Tho few would call on God to set each
molecule in its place.

If ID is involved at any level its in the
Design of matter and natural law.

Said "design" appears to be sufficient for
life to emerge from chaos, and evolution
to proceed.

Personally, I'd say its a second rate Omni
who'd need to tinker and meddle to keep
its creation running right.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Laws like conservation of energy only have meaning after the big bang. Prior to big bang is still a mystery.
Science and religion are really different fields of enquiry, and conflating them only leads to confusion.

Yes, different fields, but the ultimate goal of both is to discover what is accurate, ie., truth, and what is not.
And truth doesn't disagree with itself.

 

[Audie]

Yes, different fields, but the ultimate goal of both is to discover what is accurate, ie., truth, and what is not.
And truth doesn't disagree with itself.

Your approach to earth history
gives the lie to any claim to a
search for what is true.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Your approach to earth history
gives the lie to any claim to a
search for what is true.

Don't call me a liar!

Your accusation is really based partly on your ignorance of my beliefs.

All the facts of nature that we can discern, including the conditions we observe in human societies and their substantiated histories, support my views.

 

[Audie]

Don't call me a liar!

Your accusation is really based partly on your ignorance of my beliefs.

All the facts of nature that we can discern, including the conditions we observe in human societies and their substantiated histories, support my views.

You are not a liar, just ignorant, confused,
and unable to see outside the constraints of your religion.

The facts of nature that "we" ( your religion)
can DISCERN is just what I am talking about.

Data / facts as found in any scientific journal
are quite a different matter, where such as
flood, weird orogeny, water canopy, warn arctic
etc will find not one datum point in support.
To say otherwise goes beyond mere "facts not
in evidence".

"Gives it the lie to".*..Its not an accusation, its just sad.

* note that the primary meaning is 'falsify";
You "earth history" falsified the claim to a search
for truth. Your direction is opposite to that.