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How laic (secular) is your country?

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I preferred to use the word laic, which is present in the English dictionary, because it sounds similar to the word French laïque, which means secular. That's because I believe in the radical version of secularism, that I identify by the term laïcité française. I will talk about this in post number 2.
So, I started this thread in order to analyze how secular the legislation of several countries is. That's why I would appreciate if you answered some questions.

1) How secular is the legislation of your country, in your opinion?
2) Are you satisfied with how secular your country is?
3) What kind of laws should the state implement in order to make the state more secular?
4) How tolerant is the government of your country towards atheist propaganda in public spaces such as schools?
5) Do you think that atheistic propaganda and religious propaganda should be treated equally by the state?
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
1) How secular is the legislation of your country, in your opinion?
Très
2) Are you satisfied with how secular your country is?
Oui
3) What kind of laws should the state implement in order to make the state more secular?
Laws against faith schools I suppose; not that they bother me.
4) How tolerant is the government of your country towards atheist propaganda in public spaces such as schools?
Très

Also this
1200px-Atheist_Bus_Campaign_Citaro.jpg

5) Do you think that atheistic propaganda and religious propaganda should be treated equally by the state?
Oui
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
1) How secular is the legislation of your country, in your opinion?:
Quite to some extent. We do have different laws for Dharmic religions, Islam, Christians and others, and try not to infringe upon their traditions. Islamic tradition of triple talaq, polygamy, alimony, etc. create problems. It goes against the rights ensured in our Constitution and are likely to be changed.
2) Are you satisfied with how secular your country is?:
More or less, yes.
3) What kind of laws should the state implement in order to make the state more secular?: They should not be against a religion or gender. But in doing that, we encounter conflicts, so we have to step carefully.
4) How tolerant is the government of your country towards atheist propaganda in public spaces such as schools?:
Theism or atheism is not a subject for students. We like to keep education free of this conflict. In national life there is no bar to atheism. Our first prime minister Nehru was an atheist. I am an atheist. Do the atheists need to have a propaganda? We come to it when we are ready for it. Of course, there is no bar on pointing out mistakes in religions, while observing limits.
5) Do you think that atheistic propaganda and religious propaganda should be treated equally by the state?
I am against all kinds of propaganda. Let people decide and choose for themselves.

Indian Constitution is secular but we have defined secularism in a little different way - "Sarva Dharma Sama Bhava" - equal treatment to all religions.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
While studying law, I realized that the philosophers of French Enlightenment were the ones who contributed the most to the creation of a secular legislation in my country; first, with the Constitution of 1848, and then with that of 1948.

The main goal of French secularism is to underline that all ideologies are juridically equal (so religions are equal to atheism, or agnosticism) and their philosophical and ideological content is irrelevant before the law.
That's why no Church, no religious denomination deserves a particular special treatment, or a particular legal discipline. Because if there was such discipline, atheism would be disrespected, and considered juridically inferior to religions.

Radical secularism is perceivable in the law of the French republic of 1905, known as Loi sur la Laicité which states the no Church or religious denomination is supposed to be financed by the state, and that religious public manifestations are to be forbidden.

So..I will answer my own questions:
1) In my opinion, the Constitution of my country is not secular enough, since it doesn't underline specifically its secular basis, considering the possibility of some special legislation on the relations between the state and a particular religion, destroying the concept of equality before the law of the religious denominations.

2) Of course not. Well...the legislation of my country de facto promotes secularism in public spaces, like schools. In fact I attended a public school and I received a strictly secular education. In Italy teachers are, by contract, forbidden from speaking about religions, or worse, making religious propaganda. All history and science books speak of Evolution, and teachers are not allowed to contradict the books.
Also de facto, politicians make Christian propaganda when it deals about legislating family rights.

3) What kind of laws should the state implement in order to make the state more secular?
----I would change some articles in the Constitution. For instance, first article. I would rewrite it this way: "Italy is a democratic, liberal, laic republic founded upon Labor". Then I would underline that before the law, all manifestations of freedom of thought (including religions and other ideologies, such as atheism, etc...) are protected under the law, and are juridically equal before the law. None of them gets a special treatment. Their content is juridically irrelevant.
Another article will underline that Italian laws are based upon Reason and Ius Naturale, so any religious influence in the making of a law will be considered unconstitutional.
Another article will state that only the Italian law is supposed to be applied in the territory of the state and in any Italian Courthouse. Religious courthouses have the right to exist, but their documents have absolutely no juridical value before the Italian law. So laws like Canon law will definitively lose their juridic relevance before the Italian law.
it seems that the state is influenced by the pressure of the Vatican and that's why the Concordat of 1929 needs to be revised and to lose its effectiveness, in its most parts. That measure is considered necessary in order to reduce the indirect and implicit influence of the Vatican in the matters of the secular Italian republic.

---Secondly: Religions in public spaces. I would make a law stating that religions are a private matter, that is supposed to be practiced in the specific worship buildings. Any public manifestation of religious worship, such as Christian processions or street prayers must be forbidden. Besides, people are required to wear lay people's clothes, especially if they are public employees, in any public administration space. This law doesn't apply to the religious personnel/staff: priests, nuns, etc...

Thirdly: Religions and education. I would radicalize the already secular legislation, by forbidding teachers from making religious propaganda in any public school or university. Since there is an optional weekly hour of Catholic teaching in public school, I would suppress it (even if it's optional) and replace it with a subject called "Religious education" in which all religions are studied from an exclusively historical and scientific point of view. Students and teachers are required to wear secular clothes. Any kind of religious clothing will be forbidden.

Fourthly: Religions and Politics: I would make a law that will forbid politicians from creating political parties based upon religious principles. Since , as the constitution says, law is supposed to be based upon Ius Naturale and Reason exclusively, parties such as "Christian Democracy" or any party which promotes the principles of religious denominations will not be allowed to present their candidates during state or regional elections. Nevertheless any non-political party or association which is based upon religious principles and values has the right to exist and will be protected by the law.

4) How tolerant is the government of your country towards atheist propaganda in public spaces such as schools?
Technically, the state approves of teachers speaking about atheism, which is inevitable, when you have to speak about philosophy and history. Because it encourages rationalism in the students' mindset.


5) Do you think that atheistic propaganda and religious propaganda should be treated equally by the state?
Of course.
 
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Altfish

Veteran Member
In relation to the UK...

1) How secular is the legislation of your country, in your opinion?
Not very, despite something like 50% of the population being non-believers
2) Are you satisfied with how secular your country is?
I am not satisfied, the Church of England in particular but other religions too have too much influence/protection
3) What kind of laws should the state implement in order to make the state more secular?
No Bishops in House of Lords. Separate government and religion. Decisions should be based on Facts and Reason not on Faith
4) How tolerant is the government of your country towards atheist propaganda in public spaces such as schools?
Firstly, I don't want 'atheist propaganda' that is as bad as religious indoctrination. Certainly schools should teach about non-belief as they should about other religions BUT we should not have state funded religious schools.
5) Do you think that atheistic propaganda and religious propaganda should be treated equally by the state?
I don't like the word 'propaganda' but, yes, neither religion nor non-belief should be a factor in the states decisions.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
The law should never favour people of any particular religion.
People should be free to follow any religion or none.
Religious practices, that are otherwise legal, should be protected, both in private and in public.
No law should protect any one from seeing, or being offended, by any ones else's religious practices.
All religions should be subject to, and observe the laws of the land with out exception.
The UK is a long way down this path even though it has a "State" religion. as that state religion has almost no advantages in law. Though in matters of state it has some duties and traditions.

Churches and atheists are equally free to promote themselves as they wish. the state is not involved in this.
 
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Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
In relation to the UK...

1) How secular is the legislation of your country, in your opinion?
Not very, despite something like 50% of the population being non-believers
2) Are you satisfied with how secular your country is?
I am not satisfied, the Church of England in particular but other religions too have too much influence/protection
3) What kind of laws should the state implement in order to make the state more secular?
No Bishops in House of Lords. Separate government and religion. Decisions should be based on Facts and Reason not on Faith
4) How tolerant is the government of your country towards atheist propaganda in public spaces such as schools?
Firstly, I don't want 'atheist propaganda' that is as bad as religious indoctrination. Certainly schools should teach about non-belief as they should about other religions BUT we should not have state funded religious schools.
5) Do you think that atheistic propaganda and religious propaganda should be treated equally by the state?
I don't like the word 'propaganda' but, yes, neither religion nor non-belief should be a factor in the states decisions.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...-speech-to-the-house-of-lords-in-full-1.12705
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You have an official state church. Your head of state is the head of that church. Your constitution requires that representatives of the official state church get seats in your legislature and that they have the right to vote on legislation. You have a huge number of taxpayer-funded religious schools; in some areas, parents aren't able to find non-religious school options for their children.

And you think this state of affairs is "très" secular?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The UK is a long way down this path even though it has a "State" religion. as that state religion has almost no advantages in law. Though in matters of state it has some duties and traditions.
If having 26 spaces in the House of Lords allotted to the C of E is "almost no advantage in law," I presume you'd have no worries at all about reserving 26 spaces for, say, atheists instead. Right?
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
You have an official state church. Your head of state is the head of that church. Your constitution requires that representatives of the official state church get seats in your legislature and that they have the right to vote on legislation. You have a huge number of taxpayer-funded religious schools; in some areas, parents aren't able to find non-religious school options for their children.

And you think this state of affairs is "très" secular?
I'm comparing it to the rest of the world. Compared to places like the Middle East and even the U.S., this place is pretty secular. Also, I'm not sure what the CofE actually does, apart from own a lot of land. The Queen, as we've been through before, pretty much refuses to act on this power. I see more God talk from U.S. Presidents.

So yes, while this is the case in the U.K., it's not (in my experience) of any serious consequence.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
1) How secular is the legislation of your country, in your opinion?

Brazil is halfway secular, in a somewhat contradictory way. The holidays are catholic in origin, officially acknowledged churches have tax exemptions, the money includes an appeal for God to be Blessed.

2) Are you satisfied with how secular your country is?

Not at all, although that is less the fault of the laws than of the people's maturity.

Truth be told, even the (growingly organized) atheists here have a hard time remembering that there are other belief stances beyond Cristianity, Kardecism, Umbanda and Atheism.

3) What kind of laws should the state implement in order to make the state more secular?

I would welcome the removal of tax incentives for churches and more flexibilization in the holidays.

Exceptions for faith reasons should be reconsidered as well, so that no display of adherence to any church is required.

For instance, Seventh Day Adventists are excused from driving license exams at certain times. That is and should be fine, but it should be a freedom available to all citizens regardless of specific beliefs (or lack of same). That is important, because the alternative is in effect having the government ruling which religions are "real" enough to deserve specific privileges.

4) How tolerant is the government of your country towards atheist propaganda in public spaces such as schools?

Not too much. Truth be told, neither are the people. The whole idea is just too new for too many still living people.

5) Do you think that atheistic propaganda and religious propaganda should be treated equally by the state?

Sure. It is not a state concern at all.
 
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Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
You have a huge number of taxpayer-funded religious schools; in some areas, parents aren't able to find non-religious school options for their children.
Faith schools are part of my original answer as to what things we could improve upon. However, most parents can't find non CofE schools because of the large numbers of immigrants. This simply wasn't the case 20 years ago. Also, the CofE schools are mildly religious at best. Even at my school, which was non-religious, we did the Nativity and such. Who cares? The children aren't forced to take part in any of the religious stuff. As far as I'm aware, this is the case in both religious and non-religious schools. In fact, some parents choose to send their kids to CofE schools because they do well.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm comparing it to the rest of the world. Compared to places like the Middle East and even the U.S., this place is pretty secular.
That's one end of the scale. There's another end of the scale as well, and the UK falls roughly midway between them.

Also, I'm not sure what the CofE actually does, apart from own a lot of land.
They hold church services every Sunday, for one thing. They also run a lot of taxpayer-funded religious schools.

The Queen, as we've been through before, pretty much refuses to act on this power. I see more God talk from U.S. Presidents.
... though in a setting that takes as given a certain degree of religiosity on the part of the monarch. That's missing in the American system.

So yes, while this is the case in the U.K., it's not (in my experience) of any serious consequence.
I take it you aren't a parent in Powys, then, or in any other community where parents are denied access to secular education for their children.

Non-religious parents will be disadvantaged by new faith school, NSS tells Council
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
1) How secular is the legislation of your country, in your opinion?
Mixed. The State Church has some secular power including tax on members which are majority of population, is part of education for children of members, there are blasphemy laws etc.
2) Are you satisfied with how secular your country is?
There is much that could be better.
3) What kind of laws should the state implement in order to make the state more secular?
Take away taxation and power in schools, army. That's enough.
4) How tolerant is the government of your country towards atheist propaganda in public spaces such as schools?
Not sure about schools, but otherwise quite.
5) Do you think that atheistic propaganda and religious propaganda should be treated equally by the state?
Of course.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Faith schools are part of my original answer as to what things we could improve upon. However, most parents can't find non CofE schools because of the large numbers of immigrants. This simply wasn't the case 20 years ago. Also, the CofE schools are mildly religious at best. Even at my school, which was non-religious, we did the Nativity and such. Who cares? The children aren't forced to take part in any of the religious stuff. As far as I'm aware, this is the case in both religious and non-religious schools. In fact, some parents choose to send their kids to CofE schools because they do well.
IMO, "mildly religious" is not "très secular."
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
1) How secular is the legislation of your country, in your opinion?
My country (Canada) is fairly secular, but not perfect by any means.

2) Are you satisfied with how secular your country is?
No.

3) What kind of laws should the state implement in order to make the state more secular?

- merge our government-run Catholic schools into the secular public education system.

- get rid of religious exemptions for services provided at taxpayer-funded hospitals (e.g. right now, religiously-run hospitals can refuse to provide abortions, IVF, and physician-assisted dying).

- remove the crime of "blasphemous libel" from the Criminal Code.

- get rid of the prohibition against Catholics being our head of state.

- separate the office of head of state of Canada from the office of head of the Church of England.

- remove "advancement of religion" from the list of allowable charitable purposes in the Income Tax Act (IOW, for a religious organization to get the tax treatment of a charity, it would have to do a substantial amount of actual charitable work. This would still allow churches to register as not-for-profits - like social clubs and amateur sports leagues can - and pay no tax, but then donations to the church wouldn't be tax-deductible for donors).

- get rid of the clergy housing allowance deduction (i.e. tax the income of clergy in the same way as the income of people in other comparable professions).

- get rid of official prayers in the government institutions that still have it (e.g. the House of Commons).

- amend the Education Act (in my province, anyhow) to get rid of the blanket right of clergy to enter public schools "in the area where they have pastoral charge." Treat clergy like any other non-parental, non-official school visitor.

4) How tolerant is the government of your country towards atheist propaganda in public spaces such as schools?
Not really sure I've seen anyone try to put "atheist propaganda" in schools in this country.

5) Do you think that atheistic propaganda and religious propaganda should be treated equally by the state?
I don't think either should be in schools, so in that respect, I think they should be treated equally.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
1) How secular is the legislation of your country, in your opinion?

Kind of. It doesn't tend to make laws based off of religious doctrines but lawmakers do still allow faith schools exemptions from certain laws. Here in Scotland there is still a blasphemy law on the books; it's just not been enforced for a long time. We risk another Danish incident unless we actively abolish this archaic law.


2) Are you satisfied with how secular your country is?

No; it's not nearly secular enough.

In the wider UK
The British Government has a State Church which is allowed to operate beyond laws the rest of the Government must abide by. The Church of England also has unaccountable access to lawmaking in the British Parliament because of its 'Lords Spiritual' which allows it to directly influence laws concerning non-Anglicans as well as parts of the UK which don't have Anglican majorities. No other religious group is permitted such privileged access to the corridors of power. Faith schools are also allowed to operate with little oversight and are also allowed exempt from teaching things central to the curriculum like LGBT issues or even evolutionary biology. Oh and the head of the Royal Family, as the head of the Church of England and Defender of the Faith, should have the option of either removing herself from that role or having the monarchy abolished.

In Scotland
The Scottish Government has a rather cosy relationship with the Catholic Church and the Church of Scotland; while there is no established State Church, the Kirk is deemed the 'national church'. There are a set number of seats (three, I believe) on the education committee of every local authority reserved for religious clergy. By law, one seat is reserved for a Catholic clergyman, one is reserved for a Church of Scotland (Kirk) minister, and the other is reserved for a clergyman of a minority faith (which depends on which local authority you live in); these seats are not subject to ballot and grant Christians unaccountable access to influencing childrens' education in Scotland.


3) What kind of laws should the state implement in order to make the state more secular?

In England & Wales: the Church of England should be disestablished as the State Church and it should become just another denomination. The position of 'Lords Spiritual' should be abolished and religious schools should only be funded by the parent religious group. If they can't afford it then the schools should be placed back under secular state control. In Scotland, the unelected positions reserved for religious clergy on local education committees should be ended and the positions opened up to election like the other seats on these committees.

In the UK generally: The Catholic Church should be treated like any other criminal-harbouring organisation and not given such cosy treatment by the Government.

And stolen from @9-10ths_Penguin because this is a great point!

I'd like to see "advancement of religion" removed from the list of allowable charitable purposes in the Income Tax Act (IOW, for a religious organization to get the tax treatment of a charity, it would have to do a substantial amount of actual charitable work. This would still allow churches to register as not-for-profits - like social clubs and amateur sports leagues can - and pay no tax, but then donations to the church wouldn't be tax-deductible for donors).


4) How tolerant is the government of your country towards atheist propaganda in public spaces such as schools?

That's a rather loaded question and would depend on what you define as 'atheist propaganda'.


5) Do you think that atheistic propaganda and religious propaganda should be treated equally by the state?

Another loaded question which again would depend on what you define as 'atheistic propaganda'.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
1) How secular is the legislation of your country, in your opinion?
In the state I live in (Indiana), it's often very religious, such then-governor Pence's RFRA bill, which basically protected religious-based discrimination as a right, his attempts to refuse to follow with the Supreme Court's ruling legalizing same-sex marriage, and who stood before senate and made an attempt to ridicule, challenge, and disprove evolution/prove Creationism. The people aren't always this fervent, but many of them are.
2) Are you satisfied with how secular your country is?
I am extremely dissatisfied with my state of Indiana, and very dissatisfied with the American federal state.
3) What kind of laws should the state implement in order to make the state more secular?
Get rid of absolutely every single law that has nothing more than religion as the basis. That is the way it should be, with science, reason, evidence, and facts leading a state, not the pages of some ancient book that would put most of us to death many times over for very trivial and petty things.
4) How tolerant is the government of your country towards atheist propaganda in public spaces such as schools?
In Indiana, many public meetings (including schools) begin with prayer (specifically to the Christian god), there are nativity scenes on nearly-if-not-all court house lawns during December, and it's not at all unusual for atheism or general disbelief to be frowned upon at best.
5) Do you think that atheistic propaganda and religious propaganda should be treated equally by the state?
Yes. The state should throw both out like Uncle Phil would throw Jazzy Jeff out the door in the Fresh Prince tv show.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
They hold church services every Sunday, for one thing. They also run a lot of taxpayer-funded religious schools.
Uh, obviously. It's a Church. The schools I am not on board with though.
... though in a setting that takes as given a certain degree of religiosity on the part of the monarch. That's missing in the American system.
Yes it does, although at the next coronation it is now "Defender of Faith" instead of "The Faith". Still, this is theory. In practice, the American system won't even elect an Atheist President.
I take it you aren't a parent in Powys, then, or in any other community where parents are denied access to secular education for their children.
Sucks to be them.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
IMO, "mildly religious" is not "très secular."
I think it is. Unless I misunderstand 'Secular' and it actually means totally absolutely no religion whatsoever, in which case it is an impossible system. That's moving into Communist territory.
 
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