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How laic (secular) is your country?

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
If having 26 spaces in the House of Lords allotted to the C of E is "almost no advantage in law," I presume you'd have no worries at all about reserving 26 spaces for, say, atheists instead. Right?

I have no worries about that at all. They only attend when law directly relating to the church of England matters are being discussed. As such laws are decided in Westminster, not the Church. This is a problem of being a state religion.
Individual Bishops some times attend to discuss social matters in which they have an interest. In recent years the Chief Rabbi and a number of Muslim lords have also attended.
As it is a revising chamber there is no chance that they will ever likely try to take over the Government.

It would suit the Church to no longer be the established State religion. as it encumbers them with many responsibilities by law, that other churches are free from. as no government has been prepared to even discuss the possibility, it is reasonable that they should be represented in parliament to answer for them selves.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
My country (Canada) is fairly secular, but not perfect by any means.


No.



- merge our government-run Catholic schools into the secular public education system.

- get rid of religious exemptions for services provided at taxpayer-funded hospitals (e.g. right now, religiously-run hospitals can refuse to provide abortions, IVF, and physician-assisted dying).

- remove the crime of "blasphemous libel" from the Criminal Code.

- get rid of the prohibition against Catholics being our head of state.

- separate the office of head of state of Canada from the office of head of the Church of England.

- remove "advancement of religion" from the list of allowable charitable purposes in the Income Tax Act (IOW, for a religious organization to get the tax treatment of a charity, it would have to do a substantial amount of actual charitable work. This would still allow churches to register as not-for-profits - like social clubs and amateur sports leagues can - and pay no tax, but then donations to the church wouldn't be tax-deductible for donors).

- get rid of the clergy housing allowance deduction (i.e. tax the income of clergy in the same way as the income of people in other comparable professions).

- get rid of official prayers in the government institutions that still have it (e.g. the House of Commons).

- amend the Education Act (in my province, anyhow) to get rid of the blanket right of clergy to enter public schools "in the area where they have pastoral charge." Treat clergy like any other non-parental, non-official school visitor.


Not really sure I've seen anyone try to put "atheist propaganda" in schools in this country.


I don't think either should be in schools, so in that respect, I think they should be treated equally.
Thanks for writing this @9-10ths_Penguin
The only thing that got me scratching my head was the questions about so-called "atheist propaganda". My guess is this is a thinly veiled swipe against teaching the Theory of Evolution in our schools.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I think it is. Unless I misunderstand 'Secular' and it actually means totally absolutely no religion whatsoever, in which case it is an impossible system. That's moving into Communist territory.
It is great that the Queen and the House seats reserved for the CoE do not act in too much of an interventionist way... but it is still true that there are provisions in place to back then up if they decide to be.

It seems to me that the UK are, so to speak, provisionally secular in attitude, but not in principle.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Thanks for writing this @9-10ths_Penguin
The only thing that got me scratching my head was the questions about so-called "atheist propaganda". My guess is this is a thinly veiled swipe against teaching the Theory of Evolution in our schools.
Almost all people kind of misinterpreted what I meant by atheist propaganda. Propaganda, at least in my language (same word) is different than proselytism. It deals with speaking about a particular ideology with enthusiasm and applauding it, without trying to persuade your listener.
The example of evolution is not that appropriate, since that is something related to science. But it can be used as example.
I am thinking of when a philosophy teacher speaks of rationalism very positively...underlining that a particular philosopher is an atheist and a rationalist.
If I am a teacher and I say "Atheism induces people to use reason" , I am not trying to persuade my students, but I am making an objective statement in the context of philosophy.
Another example in history: if I say, the French revolution,with its deistic ideas contributed to the modernization of the French state. etc...


I think it is. Unless I misunderstand 'Secular' and it actually means totally absolutely no religion whatsoever, in which case it is an impossible system. That's moving into Communist territory.

It is clear that the beauty of the several European state is the diversity of their juridic and cultural traditions. All the Italian peninsula was influenced by the French Revolution and the Napoleonic juridic systems, so we have certainly another concept of secularism.
If you ask me, (an Italian) what I think about the British legal system, I will be forced to say that the UK is hardly secular according to my vision of laicité, because of the Common law system and the presence of the Monarch as head both of the state and of the Anglican Church.
This doesn't mean that the British culture, the British legislation isn't de facto very secular and modern, but the presence of Common law will allow juridic particularism, that is, some religions will be allowed to apply their religious laws in their courts.
In the mindset of an Italian or a French jurist this is anti-secular. The weird thing is that in Rome, the symbol of the secular republic, there is also the Vatican, which is almost perceived as intruder, and a negative reminder of a theocratic oppression the Romans got rid of only in 1870.

That's a rather loaded question and would depend on what you define as 'atheist propaganda'.
Another loaded question which again would depend on what you define as 'atheistic propaganda'.

Well...I should have clarified the concept, I admit that. I am sorry if it hasn't been that clear to most of you guys. It's just that I was thinking o my personal experience as high school student in Italy. Nowadays education in Italy is strongly secular, and openly sympathizing for rationalism. This implies that teachers (especially philosophy and history teachers, but also literature teachers) are encouraged to speak about ideologies like atheism, agnosticism and deism, in a enthusiastic and positive way, but without the intentional purpose of persuading the students to embrace those ideologies. This implies that students are disposed to listen to any rationalist speech with interest and receptivity, but they will protest if the teachers speak of religions positively, with the intent of influencing students.
So it is clear that the de facto, Italian public education sympathizes for atheism and reject any kind of religious propaganda. Which I find a really positive thing, since this doesn't prevent people from practicing their religions, which are a private thing. And not supposed to be discussed in a public place, like school.
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Almost all people kind of misinterpreted what I meant by atheist propaganda. Propaganda, at least in my language (same word) is different than proselytism. It deals with speaking about a particular ideology with enthusiasm and applauding it, without trying to persuade your listener.
The example of evolution is not that appropriate, since that is something related to science. But it can be used as example.
I am thinking of when a philosophy teacher speaks of rationalism very positively...underlining that a particular philosopher is an atheist and a rationalist.
If I am a teacher and I say "Atheism induces people to use reason" , I am not trying to persuade my students, but I am making an objective statement in the context of philosophy.
Another example in history: if I say, the French revolution,with its deistic ideas contributed to the modernization of the French state. etcc...
Thanks for clarifying, it's not like we atheists are evangelicals. :D
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I have no worries about that at all.
I'm confused. If you would have no problem with the C of E giving up their spots in the House of Lords to atheists, why did you give a long explanation if why the C of E should keep them?

They only attend when law directly relating to the church of England matters are being discussed. As such laws are decided in Westminster, not the Church. This is a problem of being a state religion.
Individual Bishops some times attend to discuss social matters in which they have an interest. In recent years the Chief Rabbi and a number of Muslim lords have also attended.
As it is a revising chamber there is no chance that they will ever likely try to take over the Government.

It would suit the Church to no longer be the established State religion. as it encumbers them with many responsibilities by law, that other churches are free from. as no government has been prepared to even discuss the possibility, it is reasonable that they should be represented in parliament to answer for them selves.
There are plenty of bodies that have responsibilitied under the law but don't get to vote on legislation. Take the armed forces: should generals and admirals get automatic, unelected spots in the House of Lords the way bishops do?
 
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