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How many fossils would it take to "prove" the theory of evolution beyond a reasonable doubt?

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Tell me, if scientific theory is as good as it gets...please explain how it is that the theories keep changing?

Because we constantly learn new things. It's called making progress.
And it doesn't affect the statement that theories are always the best we have at any given time. They only change when we find out more and when that new intel requires us to change them. That's how science is a process of zero-ing in on truth.



Is the big bang theory now on the verge of being tossed out because the discovery of background microwave radiation is showing that no matter which direction we measure its wavelength from, it appears that everything in the outermost reaches of that spectrum is the same distance from us?

No.

If the background radiation is showing similar distance from the earth to outmost reaches of the measurable spectrum, and the universe is 13.7 billion years old, the earth 4.54 billion years old...how can the earth be about 1/3 of the way along the universe's timeline?

Do you not see a problem in time for the age of the earth in light of the above? (pardon the pun)

No.

If we are 1/3 of the way along the universal timeline as proven by observational science on the ground here, and yet the background microwave radiation says we are for all intents and purposes equidistant from the outmost reaches of that spectrum, then the earth must be much closer to the origins of the big bang than 1/3 of the way out along the timeline!

The above supports the biblical model ie that the universe is timeless like God is, and the earth is relatively young...ie less than 10,000 years
The only thing the "above" supports, is the fact that you are ignorant on the subjects you try to discuss eventhough you like to give the expression that you know what you are talking about....
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You are barking up the wrong tree...I don't need to defend my position...I already have physical historical evidence that supports my timeline dating back more than 4500 years. I have DNA, archaeology, writings from ancient cultures, tmes and dates and places and people

Claiming you have evidence doesn't exempt you from actually sharing said evidence.

, I have the imposs9ble dilemmas that you face in trying to get a de evolving genetic code to replicate with increasing purity...which is the opposite way to what it actually is shown in research to be occurring with DNA information...

Regardless of this being a strawman argument, what you try to do is poke holes in evolution as an attempt to support your creationist beliefs. This is called negative evidence and is in fact nothing but an argument from ignorance / incredulity.


Again, I'm not the one who needs to prove...I've already got all of that in my favour.

So far, if we go by what you have actually shared instead of what you claimed to have, you have exactly nothing.
And you are even literally saying that you feel like you don't need to show the evidence. You have simply declared yourself exempt from a burden of proof for no apparant reason at all. It's just laughable.

The single biggest problem you have is explaining the beginning and proving it from your uniformitarianism guideline.

Another show of ignorance. The beginning of evolution is "life exists, reproduces with variation and is in competition with peers over limited natural resources".
Seeing as life exists, reproduces with variation and is in competition over limited resources... it seems like a pretty safe assumption.

It is proven that human DNA is de evolving.

That makes no sense.

Our raid drive system fail safe is a mirror type of raid system...and that is because we only have two parents and not 3.

Alternatively, If there was a pure master somewhere that could step in and replace all of the corrupted code from time to time ...ie resetting the cottupted information ...you might get somewhere, however what atheists have without a creator God is DNA copying according to the model of Chinese whispers..

False analogy rooted in strawman

oh and extinction of the bad copies!

btw, are you aware that 99% of all species that ever existed, are extinct today?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
A long answer that completely misunderstands the dilemma...

Where did the human code come from? Obviously primitive life...therefore given our dna is different, and yet slowly loosing purity because mutations in us are degenerative and not an improvement, that goes against the claim it came from primitive life in the first place...

Good thing then, that you're merely again arguing a strawman.



it is currently demonstrating the opposite. It's de-evolving clearly and this supports the model that we were created with all the dna code and are gradually loosing it...which is more consistent and harmonious with the biblical model
None of your claims make any sense.
There is no such thing as "de-evolving".
You don't seem to have any understanding of evolutionary biology.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The reality is that this area is in fact the area where creationist have by far, the strongest evidence that is overwhelmingly in their favour.
Not in the opinion of the experts or the scientifically literate. Why do you suppose that experts in interpreting evidence come to a different conclusion than the creationists regarding what it implies?
Every example of information in the living cell tells us someone had to code it.
Tells YOU. The creationist sees the world through a faith-based confirmation bias, one that formed when he chose to believe that a god exists without sufficient evidentiary support, and so now, when others look at nature and see a what, he sees a who.
Each time our body copies...a little bit of information is corrupted and usually lost. A small amount of the broken code is passed on down to the next generation. Where did the human code come from? Obviously primitive life...therefore given our dna is different, and yet slowly loosing purity because mutations in us are degenerative and not an improvement, that goes against the claim it came from primitive life in the first place.
If you pass a harmful mutation that forms in one of your gametes to the next generation, and it creates a defective organism, that gene will be weeded out by natural selection. Contrarily, if the mutation confers a selective advantage, the opposite occurs, and that allele increases in frequency in the gene pool. It is in this way that the genome does the opposite to what you suggest.
The sod off and don't read or reply to them!
He wrote, "If you are not going to support your claims, there is no reason to even read your posts." What I believe he's telling you is that he doesn't care about the incorrect ideas others collect by faith. Like me, he's probably only interested in what others know and can demonstrate to be correct.
The theory of evolution will always be a theory.
Agreed. The chance of falsifying it seems quite remote.
Many theories that have stood though history are being questioned now due to scientific advancements.
That's the glory of the scientific method. That's how scientific knowledge evolves. It's analogous to biological evolution as Dawkins suggested using the term meme in place of gene. Most hypotheses are wrong. Think of Edison testing substances to be filaments in his light bulb. Most failed and those ideas were tossed. Once a success was achieved, THAT idea was kept, and later improved upon. In this way, the wrong ideas scientists test and disconfirm are culled while the good ideas accumulate.
you can not define how even one evolutionary trait was arrived at. When was the mutation, what was the mutation, what made the mutation beneficiary.
Correct.

Do you think that says something about the correctness of the science? I ask because your posting is unique in my experience on religious message boards. On the one hand, you call the theory correct, and then write things like the above, which is a standard tool in the creationist toolbox - the sea lioning and the implied ignorantium fallacy. He's trying to imply that if you can't answer his questions, that the science is wrong and by default, that his religious beliefs are correct. That doesn't seem to be what you're up to, or if it is, it's so stealth as to be counterproductive to that purpose. One cannot argue creationism by affirming the science that contradicts it.
The development you are speaking of is selective breeding not evolution by scientific definition of the theory.
Artificial selection piggybacks onto natural selection. Even with animal husbandry and horticulture, we are still allowing some natural mutations to enter and dominate a gene pool. What we've changed is the environment in which this process occurs in. My pug is a product of that process. His ancestors were the fittest and the most fecund because fitness in that setting was defined by what pleased the breeders. Nevertheless, the biological process proceeds as always, with genes that confer cuteness or whatever other trait pleases man infiltrating then later dominating gene pools.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Where did the human code come from? Obviously primitive life...therefore given our dna is different, and yet slowly loosing purity because mutations in us are degenerative and not an improvement, that goes against the claim it came from primitive life in the first place...it is currently demonstrating the opposite.

You are still MAKING CLAIMS, AdamjEdgar, therefore you need to support it with evidence or you need to cite peer-reviewed theories that support your claims.

You are still making false claims about there should be purity, as NO BIOLOGISTS would make such ignorant claims. The claims is yours, but you are blaming it on the biologists and the theory, hence this is using a strawman argument.

Can you quote a single modern biologist saying anything about purity in the theory of Evolution? I don't think you can, because I think you made this BS yourself.

Second.

I am not too sure (not clear) about what you mean DNA is different to those of primitive life.

The "order" of base molecules in the nucleotide may differ. And the sequence of chain of DNA nucleotide may differ.

But all the molecules within each nucleotide in life today, is exactly the same molecules those of primitive life.

For each nucleotide, the following molecules haven't change at all in DNA:
  • deoxyribose sugar, there are always 2 deoxyribose sugars for each nucleotide, as 2 is require for double-helix
  • 1 phosphate molecule, usually one of the 3 triphosphate molecules
  • and there are 4 nucleobase molecules:
    • adenine
    • guanine
    • cytosine
    • thymine
Primitive DNA life didn't have different molecules in the DNA nucleotide, if that's what you are saying.

Are you saying that DNA are completely different in primitive organisms, as having different molecules than the ones I have listed?

If you are, then you don't understand DNA.

If not, then I do apologize for misunderstanding your statement.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I think you should be more concerned about the de evolution of genetic code within our DNA.

Please explain how the passing on of corrupt code thus reducing purity is in fact gaining new information?

Secondly, from the accepted model of uniformstarianism, please answer this...if we are losing purity, how the heck did we start from no code and get to the top of the sinewave of code before we started losing it? There doesn't appear to be any evidence we can test to show gaining new information.
What do you mean by "corrupt code" and "losing purity" .... ??

Also there isn't a "code" in the sense you're imagining.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Tell me, if scientific theory is as good as it gets...please explain how it is that the theories keep changing?

Is the universe 13.7 billion years old or is it now in excess of 20 billion years old?

Secondly and this i think is a much bigger problem...

Is the big bang theory now on the verge of being tossed out because the discovery of background microwave radiation is showing that no matter which direction we measure its wavelength from, it appears that everything in the outermost reaches of that spectrum is the same distance from us? If the background radiation is showing similar distance from the earth to outmost reaches of the measurable spectrum, and the universe is 13.7 billion years old, the earth 4.54 billion years old...how can the earth be about 1/3 of the way along the universe's timeline?

Do you not see a problem in time for the age of the earth in light of the above? (pardon the pun)

If we are 1/3 of the way along the universal timeline as proven by observational science on the ground here, and yet the background microwave radiation says we are for all intents and purposes equidistant from the outmost reaches of that spectrum, then the earth must be much closer to the origins of the big bang than 1/3 of the way out along the timeline!

The above supports the biblical model ie that the universe is timeless like God is, and the earth is relatively young...ie less than 10,000 years
This thread is about evolution.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
A long answer that completely misunderstands the dilemma...

Where did the human code come from? Obviously primitive life...therefore given our dna is different, and yet slowly loosing purity because mutations in us are degenerative and not an improvement, that goes against the claim it came from primitive life in the first place...it is currently demonstrating the opposite. It's de-evolving clearly and this supports the model that we were created with all the dna code and are gradually loosing it...which is more consistent and harmonious with the biblical model
What are you talking about?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What did Darwin call it...Origins of species. Same same just different perspective.

Btw, have you not noticed the domain name here... religiousforums.com

If you want to talk exclusively about secularism...this isnt the place
Yes, origins of new species from existing ones. Abiogenesis is a related but different topic.

As to the religious aspects, some sects make the error of interpreting their holy books to literally. Most Christians, most Jews, I do not know about Muslims, but other religions do not have a problem with evolution for the most part either. The fact that people are the product of evolution does not refute God.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
What did Darwin call it...Origins of species. Same same just different perspective.
It's called evolution.

You were going on about Big Bang theory and the age of the universe. Those are not evolution.
Btw, have you not noticed the domain name here... religiousforums.com
Yeah, I've been here for many years.
If you want to talk exclusively about secularism...this isnt the place
Well it is if I feel like it, but I haven't mentioned anything at all about secularism and I don't know what you're talking about. Lots of religious-minded folks accept the science of evolution.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I am not a fan boy or religious zealot preaching the amazing all purposeful, most useful science of evolution to the world. I take evolution as it is our current most likely explanation for how life developed on this planet. That is it evolution can not be used by science to create any thing by the theory's own definition. 1 the theory indicates random mutations which are not useful in creating new food or drugs. 2 the theory also indicates that only changes beneficial to survival of species remain. This is also bad for science as we are manipulating the species to promote human survival. All scientific endeavors around the development of new drugs and foods for us is done by scientific method with a good dose of trial and error and intuition, not by evolution. Evolutions explains our journey to the present not our development of the future.
I was thinking in a way similar to yours, although I want to reiterate that the theory is untenable to a large degree. That degree is that it is not PROVEN (yes, I use the word proven because again, there are no videos or circumstances showing that is how living forms developed, not even the Miller-Urey experiment which used matter that was already there and inserted electricity to the mix) by historical data or factual matter that is how plants and animals developed.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
What did Darwin call it...Origins of species. Same same just different perspective.

Btw, have you not noticed the domain name here... religiousforums.com

If you want to talk exclusively about secularism...this isnt the place
I just read that Darwin never used the word evolution. Not sure if that's true.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I just read that Darwin never used the word evolution. Not sure if that's true.
It is possible that he did not. I should check this claim. But what difference does it make? His theory still was the beginning of what we call evolution today.

This site says that he did not use that term, and they seem to be fairly reliable:


"Darwin did not use the term “evolution,” which did not have its current meaning, but referred to the evolution of organisms by the phrase “common descent with modification” and similar expressions. "

In other words what he described is what we call evolution today. It really makes no difference.

But he was the one that came up with the term "creationist".
 

McBell

Unbound
Btw, have you not noticed the domain name here... religiousforums.com

If you want to talk exclusively about secularism...this isnt the place
Interesting that you would jump from evolution to abiogenesis and when it is is pointed out, you jump to this nonsense about secularism only when you your self are not going the way of the religion despite you claims of religiousforums,com....


Rather difficult to take you seriously.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Interesting that you would jump from evolution to abiogenesis and when it is is pointed out, you jump to this nonsense about secularism only when you your self are not going the way of the religion despite you claims of religiousforums,com....


Rather difficult to take you seriously.
This IS a very argumentative site in many respects, allows people to express their hatred of various religious ways and thinking, although we are free to express our opinions, even if they're biased. And some people I've noticed will argue just because it seems they like to argue. :) Have a nice day...
 

McBell

Unbound
This IS a very argumentative site in many respects, allows people to express their hatred of various religious ways and thinking, although we are free to express our opinions, even if they're biased. And some people I've noticed will argue just because it seems they like to argue. :) Have a nice day...
Yes.
Just like someone whining about secularism on a site called religiousforums in a thread where they are the ones who went from evolution to abiogenesis and not one mention of religious until after after they got called out on trying to switch from one secular to another.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes.
Just like someone whining about secularism on a site called religiousforums in a thread where they are the ones who went from evolution to abiogenesis and not one mention of religious until after after they got called out on trying to switch from one secular to another.
Yeah I was thinking about that and wonder if you think religion is part of human evolution
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yeah I was thinking about that and wonder if you think religion is part of human evolution
It could be. Traits that force us to work together would be positive ones. Groups of people will do better than loners. There are some species where that is not true and they will be lacking in social behaviors that species that are group based have.
 
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