How many times did Jesus die?

[Deut 13:1]

I'm not seeing multiple deaths in Isaiah 53. What am I missing?

A lot...
וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו; עַל לֹא-חָמָס עָשָׂה, וְלֹא מִרְמָה בְּפִיו

B'Motav, kind of sucks that it's in the plural? Singular: Be'Moto

מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ
Lamo, kind of sucks that it's in the plural? Singular: Lo

מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע--בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי, לָרַבִּים; וַעֲו‍ֹנֹתָם, הוּא יִסְבֹּל
Avdi, My servant. Kind of sucks that the NATION of Israel, or the Jews were called Avdi, my servant, in: Isaiah 49:3, 45:4, 44:1, 2:21, 41:8... ect...

I can go on, but you should get the point... Just because your translators choose to be ignorant of the fact, doesn't mean I will.

 

[Deut 13:1]

He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held HIM as of no account. 4 Truly our sicknesses were what HE himself carried; and as for our pains, HE bore them. But we ourselves accounted HIM as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. 5 But HE was being pierced for our transgression; HE was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon HIM, and because of HIS wounds there has been a healing for us. 6 Like sheep we have all of us wandered about; it was each one to his own way that we have turned; and Jehovah himself has caused the error of us all to meet up with that ONE. 7 HE was hard pressed, and HE was letting himself be afflicted; yet HE would not open HIS mouth. HE was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering; and like a ewe that before her shearers has become mute, HE also would not open his mouth............ isaiah 53; Yes that sounds like Jesus to me

One problem. Notice that it's all in Past tense... If it was describing Jesus, it would have been in the FUTURE tense. Isaiah lived 700 years before Jesus, so it must logically follow that he was describing someone before Jesus.

 

[may]

The problem with that is Isaiah 53 talks about deathS, not a single death. So you agree it isn't about Jesus? Cool.

not sure what you mean about deaths

 

[Deut 13:1]

not sure what you mean about deaths

It's very simple, you're not reading an accurate translation. You believe it says with his death we're saved blah blah blah, the problem is the text itself says "with his deaths". Bear in mind that Isaiah CONSTANTLY referred to the Nation of israel in 3rd person singular. Hebrew lets you do that, English doesn't.

 

[may]

One problem. Notice that it's all in Past tense... If it was describing Jesus, it would have been in the FUTURE tense. Isaiah lived 700 years before Jesus, so it must logically follow that he was describing someone before Jesus.

i dont think so
The Christian Greek Scriptures record the prophetic fulfillments of this remarkable chapter of Isaiah, as the following comparisons show: vs. 1—John 12:37, 38; vs. 2—John 19:5-7; vs. 3—Mark 9:12; vs. 4—Matthew 8:16, 17; vs. 5—1 Peter 2:24; vs. 6—1 Peter 2:25; vs. 7—Acts 8:32, 35; vs. 8—Acts 8:33; vs. 9—Matthew 27:57-60; vs. 10—Hebrews 7:27; vs. 11—Romans 5:18; vs. 12—Luke 22:37. Who but God could be the source of such accurate forecasting?

 

[Deut 13:1]

i dont think so
The Christian Greek Scriptures record the prophetic fulfillments of this remarkable chapter of Isaiah, as the following comparisons show: vs. 1—John 12:37, 38; vs. 2—John 19:5-7; vs. 3—Mark 9:12; vs. 4—Matthew 8:16, 17; vs. 5—1 Peter 2:24; vs. 6—1 Peter 2:25; vs. 7—Acts 8:32, 35; vs. 8—Acts 8:33; vs. 9—Matthew 27:57-60; vs. 10—Hebrews 7:27; vs. 11—Romans 5:18; vs. 12—Luke 22:37. Who but God could be the source of such accurate forecasting?

You don't think Isaiah lived 700 years before Jesus? Then I would have to call you very ignorant.

Again, why would I care what a translation of the original says? I find it funny that you use one mistranslation to justify another. Furthermore, I really hope you don't think I'm going to go out and buy a copy of the NT to look up those verses. Nor do I care what the NT says. The fact remains Isaiah 53 grammatically CAN'T BE talking about one person, to say so, is pure ignorance of the basic gramatically rules of the Hebrew language.

 

[may]

It's very simple, you're not reading an accurate translation. You believe it says with his death we're saved blah blah blah, the problem is the text itself says "with his deaths". Bear in mind that Isaiah CONSTANTLY referred to the Nation of israel in 3rd person singular. Hebrew lets you do that, English doesn't.

which particular verse are you refering to here

 

[John Eastern]

How many times does Jesus die? In as many ways as we deny love. As soon as we turn to face our selflessness, love is resurrected and sits on the right hand of the father... mom must be at work.

 

[may]

You don't think Isaiah lived 700 years before Jesus? Then I would have to call you very ignorant.

Again, why would I care what a translation of the original says? I find it funny that you use one mistranslation to justify another. Furthermore, I really hope you don't think I'm going to go out and buy a copy of the NT to look up those verses. Nor do I care what the NT says. The fact remains Isaiah 53 grammatically CAN'T BE talking about one person, to say so, is pure ignorance of the basic gramatically rules of the Hebrew language.

i didnt say that isaiah did not live 700 years before jesus , in fact i mentioned that it was 700 years before hand . did you not read what i said

 

[may]

You don't think Isaiah lived 700 years before Jesus? Then I would have to call you very ignorant.

Again, why would I care what a translation of the original says? I find it funny that you use one mistranslation to justify another. Furthermore, I really hope you don't think I'm going to go out and buy a copy of the NT to look up those verses. Nor do I care what the NT says. The fact remains Isaiah 53 grammatically CAN'T BE talking about one person, to say so, is pure ignorance of the basic gramatically rules of the Hebrew language.

well if you havent got a NT then that would make you ignorant how can you be so sure of things with out even looking in the NT now that is a strange choice

 

[BUDDY]

Well the reason I ask, is because Christians keep telling me that Jesus is Messiach and they tell me to look at Isaiah 53, so I do, and it says with his deaths, so I was wondering how many deaths he has, but if you say 1, then isaiah 53 can't be talking about him, so as a Jew, I'm still fine. Thanks.

That's it? That's the big payoff in this whole thing? Trying to trap people into something. Nice. Okay, so here is my answer. Let's look at the whole passage and take it into context, shall we?
8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken.
9: And He made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.
So, when taken into context, it says that this person (I believe Jesus of Nazareth) took on the transgressions of the people (plural), made his grave with the wicked (plural), and was with the rich (plural) in his death. In the hebrew the word death takes on the same plural that coincides with the words that verb is reffering to, so while Christ suffered one death (singular), he did so covered with a multitude of sins (plural) and in the hebrew the word for his death must be plural as well, b'motav rather than b'moto. Nice try though. Actually I would think someone who knows Hebrew and was looking to trip up a christian, would have used the phrase, " And He made his grave with the wicked" to trip someone up. Since He was actually buried in a rich man's tomb. BTW, he did die once in case I wasn't clear.

 

[John Eastern]

Ah folks, Jesus didn't debate, he hung on a tree.

 

[Deut 13:1]

which particular verse are you refering to here

Verse 9.

 

[Deut 13:1]

i didnt say that isaiah did not live 700 years before jesus , in fact i mentioned that it was 700 years before hand . did you not read what i said

How many tenses do you think Hebrew has?

 

[Deut 13:1]

That's it? That's the big payoff in this whole thing? Trying to trap people into something. Nice. Okay, so here is my answer. Let's look at the whole passage and take it into context, shall we?
8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken.
9: And He made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.
So, when taken into context, it says that this person (I believe Jesus of Nazareth) took on the transgressions of the people (plural), made his grave with the wicked (plural), and was with the rich (plural) in his death. In the hebrew the word death takes on the same plural that coincides with the words that verb is reffering to, so while Christ suffered one death (singular), he did so covered with a multitude of sins (plural) and in the hebrew the word for his death must be plural as well, b'motav rather than b'moto. Nice try though. Actually I would think someone who knows Hebrew and was looking to trip up a christian, would have used the phrase, " And He made his grave with the wicked" to trip someone up. Since He was actually buried in a rich man's tomb. BTW, he did die once in case I wasn't clear.

Ahh yes, fell into another trap.. You assume that the person who took on the trangressions is singular but in fact the Hebrew word used is Lamo, not Lo. 3rd person PLURAL not SINGULAR like you said, "I BELIEVE JESUS OF NAZARETH" which is 3rd person SINGULAR. The text says that the people who took on the transgressions had a plague fall upon them, not him. The them does NOT refer to the peoples transgressions.

You sure act like an expert on Hebrew language, wanna tell me the difference between Lamo and Lo. Thanks. The problem is your ignorance on the subject. Also, the hebrew word for death must be singular if the verb is plural. IE: we (plural) goes (plural) vs. he (singular) goes (plural) vs we(plural) go (singular).

Nice try though. :biglaugh:

 

[may]

Verse 9.

And he (or one)will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth. verse 9

 

[Deut 13:1]

And he (or one)will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his deaths, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth. verse 9

Wrong... Deaths is PLURAL. Does that fit one person? No, not unless your morph the text even further and come up with a crazy new interpretation based upon 11:57 a.m. on November 21st, 2005 when you realized this fact. I guess Christians 'holy spirit' missed this one. . .

 

[BUDDY]

Ahh yes, fell into another trap.. You assume that the person who took on the trangressions is singular but in fact the Hebrew word used is Lamo, not Lo. 3rd person PLURAL not SINGULAR like you said, "I BELIEVE JESUS OF NAZARETH" which is 3rd person SINGULAR. The text says that the people who took on the transgressions had a plague fall upon them, not him. The them does NOT refer to the peoples transgressions.

You sure act like an expert on Hebrew language, wanna tell me the difference between Lamo and Lo. Thanks. The problem is your ignorance on the subject. Also, the hebrew word for death must be singular if the verb is plural. IE: we (plural) goes (plural) vs. he (singular) goes (plural) vs we(plural) go (singular).

Nice try though. :biglaugh:

Not even close to an expert on Hebrew, a working knowledge only, so I can't hope to debate simantics of it with comeone who is well versed in Hebrew. I guess that we will just have to agree to disagree (like most christians and jews ) and move on. Peace.

 

[may]

Wrong... Deaths is PLURAL. Does that fit one person? No, not unless your morph the text even further and come up with a crazy new interpretation based upon 11:57 a.m. on November 21st, 2005 when you realized this fact. I guess Christians 'holy spirit' missed this one. . .

9And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich [are] his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor [is] deceit in his mouth........YOUNGS LITRAL TRANSLATION ...ISAIAH 53;9