How much choice do we really have?

[Geoff-Allen]

Was wondering where to post this ,,,

I have been doin a little contemplating lately.

The following questions popped into my consciousness the other day -

Are people able to actually choose which thoughts, feelings and beliefs that they experience?

In other words, do you believe that your beliefs are the result of a free-choice?

Do some people have a real choice while others do not?

Where exactly do thoughts & beliefs come from ... originally?

I don't mean "where" in terms of geography

I definitely have my own views but I was wondering what other people come up with.

Enjoy your day - even if you choose not to respond!

 

[Orbit]

Choice comes from having resources, usually money

 

[bobhikes]

Was wondering where to post this ,,,

I have been doin a little contemplating lately.

The following questions popped into my consciousness the other day -

Are people able to actually choose which thoughts, feelings and beliefs that they experience?

In other words, do you believe that your beliefs are the result of a free-choice?

Do some people have a real choice while others do not?

Where exactly do thoughts & beliefs come from ... originally?

I don't mean "where" in terms of geography

I definitely have my own views but I was wondering what other people come up with.

Enjoy your day - even if you choose not to respond!

I believe thoughts, feelings are caused but certain decisions that are yes/no are from will.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe thoughts, feelings are caused but certain decisions that are yes/no are from will.

I will go with compatibilism, and the view that we have the limited potential of free, but this potential for most is not realized. Thoughts, feelings, and actions are subject to the limited potential of free will.

 

[Sunstone]

"Free will". That's quite a Medieval mouthful. I'm not sure the concept of a free will is very accurate or even useful in the 21st Century, although I do understand how so many people think the mere appearance we have of being free to decide is conclusive evidence that we are indeed free to decide. However, such reasoning impresses me no more than the reasoning that arrives at the notion the earth is flat. Appearances are not everything. The truth is often counter-intuitive.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

"Free will". That's quite a Medieval mouthful. I'm not sure the concept of a free will is very accurate or even useful in the 21st Century, although I do understand how so many people think the mere appearance we have of being free to decide is conclusive evidence that we are indeed free to decide. However, such reasoning impresses me no more than the reasoning that arrives at the notion the earth is flat. Appearances are not everything. The truth is often counter-intuitive.

You're perfectly entitled to think that way but you are trying to take ALL the fun out of my contemplations!

 

[Sunstone]

You're perfectly entitled to think that way but you are trying to take ALL the fun out of my contemplations!

It's true! I'm an insufferable party pooper!

 

[Relinquish]

Naturally, in any given waking moment, we are all moving along what we each perceive to be the path of least resistance to get as close to happiness as possible and as far from unhappiness as possible. Of course, we all have different preferences, but none of us CHOSE our own preferences. They are what they are because of the surrounding environment into which we were born, completely beyond our control. Had we been born into a different surrounding environment, our preferences would not have been the same.

To test this assertion, try now to GENUINELY cease desiring something that you strongly desire. Conversely, try to GENUINELY desire something that you have absolutely no desire for.

Can you do it? GENUINELY?

In my view, the only possible reason someone would choose to do something that they would actually prefer not to do is that they do not want the anticipated undesirable consequences of NOT doing it to come true.

Any activity that we BOTH have no desire to do, AND feel that not doing it will have no undesirable consequences is an activity that is fundamentally ruled out from possibility.

Any activity that we BOTH have a strong desire to do, AND feel that doing it will have no undesirable consequences is an activity that we can not stop ourselves from doing.

When this is realized, the very energy draining activity of 'pointing the finger' is made redundant.

What a relief!!!

☺

 

[shunyadragon]

My view of potential free will is humans have a range of possible decisions in any given situation. The range of possibilities is limited by the outcomes of the chain of cause and effect events within the determinism of the greater world around us. People tend to greatly over state the range of potential of their free will decisions. The chain of outcomes of our previous decisions over time further limit our future choices.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Where exactly do thoughts & beliefs come from ... originally?

They come from our influences during developmental stages... And we chose zero percent of those influences.

We did not choose who our parents were.
We did not chose when, in History, or where, geographically, we would be born. Those three factors alone play an integral part in our current sense of being and self. Since we had absolutely no part in their construction, I'd like to hear any real cogent defense for the idea of free will...

 

[LuisDantas]

Was wondering where to post this ,,,

I have been doin a little contemplating lately.

The following questions popped into my consciousness the other day -

Are people able to actually choose which thoughts, feelings and beliefs that they experience?

In other words, do you believe that your beliefs are the result of a free-choice?

Do some people have a real choice while others do not?

Where exactly do thoughts & beliefs come from ... originally?

It is clear to me that we don't always. Many a person suffers from crippling fears that they would rather not, for instance.

We sometimes feel like we have a choice, while at other times we do not, mainly because we suffer the benefits from cooperation and encouragement from others.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

It's true! I'm an insufferable party pooper!

I was only half-serious!

Not even you can spoil my fun - I am in a very buoyant mood - hope it continues ...

Have a great day everyone!

 

[Geoff-Allen]

It is clear to me that we don't always. Many a person suffers from crippling fears that they would rather not, for instance.

We sometimes feel like we have a choice, while at other times we do not, mainly because we suffer the benefits from cooperation and encouragement from others.

Thanks for sharing - more food for contemplation.

Would be nice if we had no fears!

Cheers!

 

[Geoff-Allen]

Since we had absolutely no part in their construction, I'd like to hear any real cogent defense for the idea of free will...

Yes - to some extent our experiences shape our beliefs.

Then our beliefs shape our behaviour.

Not too sure where I am going with this ...

My beliefs have sure changed over the years and I seem to have more "freedom" as far as what kinds of thoughts I entertain and what feelings result from those thoughts.

Am I making any sense here?

I think true "freedom" is rare at this point in human history but it may be changing ... slowly ...

Thanks for your input.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Yes - to some extent our experiences shape our beliefs.

Then our beliefs shape our behaviour.

Not too sure where I am going with this ...

My beliefs have sure changed over the years and I seem to have more "freedom" as far as what kinds of thoughts I entertain and what feelings result from those thoughts.

Am I making any sense here?

I think true "freedom" is rare at this point in human history but it may be changing ... slowly ...

Thanks for your input.

You're free to make all of the decisions that your history allows you to make.

By nature, that's a limit more than a freedom.

I'm right there with you. I just think we can only maintain ideas that we're cognizant of. And there are lots of things to which we are ignorant, and therefore incapable of maintaining.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

@Geoff-Allen this is a very complex subject. As a philosopher I think we have free choice within certain parameters, but we don't have free will. Will arises from necessity, or what is beyond a person's control. Like if it is hot- a person's will is to cool off. The choice comes with how they choose to go about it. Schopenhauer once remarked that a man can do what he wants, but he cannot want what he wants.

This is a question as old as philosophy itself. The limits of the will.

Adopting a belief has to do with the will, because as Epicurus noted when he challenged the hard determinism of his master Democritus- determinism can be shifted or turned as it were when we adopt knowledge and employ it. This the Stoics also argued.

For example: hard determinism isn't true, because we'd never be able to fly if it was. Through knowledge we are capable of flight. Thereby the only escape from hard determinism and the dictations of nature is knowledge.

However, this doesn't free us from determinism. Things like the cold example I gave. It only continues determinism on another track as it were- in which we've simply changed the variables and expanded possibilities.

This is why the Stoics concluded, much like easterners- that one must be able to transcend the normative state of being to break free of determinism. One must have perfect knowledge and no longer be subject to the wants, or wish to dictate the way things happen.

This state they called Apatheia. This is like what easterners call Moksha/Nirvana.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

this is a very complex subject. As a philosopher I think we have free choice within certain parameters, but we don't have free will. Will arises from necessity, or what is beyond a person's control. Like if it is hot- a person's will is to cool off. The choice comes with how they choose to go about it. Schopenhauer once remarked that a man can do what he wants, but he cannot want what he wants.

This is a question as old as philosophy itself. The limits of the will.

Adopting a belief has to do with the will, because as Epicurus noted when he challenged the hard determinism of his master Democritus- determinism can be shifted or turned as it were when we adopt knowledge and employ it. This the Stoics also argued.

For example: hard determinism isn't true, because we'd never be able to fly if it was. Through knowledge we are capable of flight. Thereby the only escape from hard determinism and the dictations of nature is knowledge.

However, this doesn't free us from determinism. Things like the cold example I gave. It only continues determinism on another track as it were- in which we've simply changed the variables and expanded possibilities.

This is why the Stoics concluded, much like easterners- that one must be able to transcend the normative state of being to break free of determinism. One must have perfect knowledge and no longer be subject to the wants, or wish to dictate the way things happen.

This state they called Apatheia. This is like what easterners call Moksha/Nirvana.

Thanks for the input!

Speaking of Nirvana ... here's a little something I wrote many years ago -

Nirvana

I've been to the place where it all makes sense
Where there is no past or future tense
To get here is easy - you may find
All you need is a quiet mind

I also like this page on enlightenment -

One of the problems in explaining enlightenment is that we have to use words. Words are only symbols and don’t give the real understanding. The letters of a word are merely a code that the mind translates into meaning. Words only have meaning if you already have an experiential knowledge of what the words mean. If you were blind could you understand color through just words? Can you describe music to someone using only words? Can you describe the emotion of love only using the symbols of words?

Enlightenment | What is enlightenment | How to become enlightened | Compassion | Laughter | Divine Comedy

Thanks again