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How much collateral damage is acceptable?

an anarchist

Your local loco.
How many civilian deaths are acceptable in the context of war?

None? Is it even possible for modern war to be carried out without civilian casualties? If no civilian causalities should be acceptable, then should war not be carried out by the State? Should the State just let terrorists run amok?

I know I am typing this from the safety of my home. No missiles or rockets flying overhead here. It makes me feel a little sick talking about something so serious in a rather casual setting, but this question I think needs to be discussed. This site’s members make a lot Israel threads. NBC says Israel has killed a lot of people in Lebanon in the past couple weeks. During WW2, the allies bombed the heck out of Japan and Germany. They “dehoused” them, i.e. purposefully targeted civilian neighborhoods. Are these scenarios acceptable, in your eyes?

If you view that some collateral damage is acceptable due to its inevitability, how much collateral damage is acceptable (in your view)? And would you still feel that way if it was your family killed in war as civilian casualties?
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
How many civilian deaths are acceptable in the context of war?

None? Is it even possible for modern war to be carried out without civilian casualties? If no civilian causalities should be acceptable, then should war not be carried out by the State? Should the State just let terrorists run amok?

I know I am typing this from the safety of my home. No missiles or rockets flying overhead here. It makes me feel a little sick talking about something so serious in a rather casual setting, but this question I think needs to be discussed. This site’s members make a lot Israel threads. NBC says Israel has killed a lot of people in Lebanon in the past couple weeks. During WW2, the allies bombed the heck out of Japan and Germany. They “dehoused” them, i.e. purposefully targeted civilian neighborhoods. Are these scenarios acceptable, in your eyes?

If you view that some collateral damage is acceptable due to its inevitability, how much collateral damage is acceptable (in your view)? And would you still feel that way if it was your family killed in war as civilian casualties?

It's a dilemma I have no solution for. Why can't people just stop hating each other over stupid religion. It's beyond my comprehension. I don't even know who is the bad guys, I suspect it might be all of them.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
It's not really about the amount of collateral damage, it's about the justification and the checks put in place and the relative benefit of the military action.

For example, a missile strike on a weapons depot that ends up killing four civilians isn't "less justified" than, say, throwing a grenade into a family front room to kill a terrorist holding a family of three hostage resulting in all three members of that family dying. Even though the body count of one is higher than the other, you wouldn't say that throwing a grenade into a front room with three hostages in it is "more justified" than missile striking a weapons depot. The issue is when these considerations aren't taken when deciding military action, or when the military strategy being undertaken demonstrates a reckless disregard for collateral damage or, even worse, seems to be designed to cause it.

This is what makes the distinction between "war" and "war crimes", and it's something we need to keep in mind.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Let me ask a question...
It is WWII the allies have just landed in France and started their drive toward Germany, then we have a bunch of hand-wringers start advocatling for a cease fire. Your opinion?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
How many civilian deaths are acceptable in the context of war?

None? Is it even possible for modern war to be carried out without civilian casualties? If no civilian causalities should be acceptable, then should war not be carried out by the State? Should the State just let terrorists run amok?

I know I am typing this from the safety of my home. No missiles or rockets flying overhead here. It makes me feel a little sick talking about something so serious in a rather casual setting, but this question I think needs to be discussed. This site’s members make a lot Israel threads. NBC says Israel has killed a lot of people in Lebanon in the past couple weeks. During WW2, the allies bombed the heck out of Japan and Germany. They “dehoused” them, i.e. purposefully targeted civilian neighborhoods. Are these scenarios acceptable, in your eyes?

I think comparing any current conflict with what happened in Japan and Germany, is a false / unfair comparison.

First, 40-45 was a very very different time. The world has changed immensely in the past 80 years.
Secondly, context matters also.... We are talking about countries that have been setting the world on fire, quite literally.

To put in a link there with your thread title question... how much "collateral" is acceptable is imo directly proportional with the threat in its broadest sense.
So to compare the conflict with nazi germany in WW2 with the one with hamas or hezbollah, is quite ridiculous imo.

Neither of these groups pose anywhere near the threat that Nazi Germany was.



If you view that some collateral damage is acceptable due to its inevitability, how much collateral damage is acceptable (in your view)? And would you still feel that way if it was your family killed in war as civilian casualties?

As I said: I think it is directly proportional with the overall threat that exists.

I'm not a military guy nor could I put numbers on it. But what I see happening in Gaza and Lebanon, feels wildly out of proportion to me.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Let me ask a question...
It is WWII the allies have just landed in France and started their drive toward Germany, then we have a bunch of hand-wringers start advocatling for a cease fire. Your opinion?
What's the point of your comparison?
What are you comparing exactly?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
From Wikipedia:

"Collateral damage" is a term for any incidental and undesired death, injury or other damage inflicted, especially on civilians, as the result of an activity.​

Embedded in that definition is the sense of unintended/accidental, it does not mean unavoidable. If an action will inevitably result in unavoidable "death, injury or other damage" to civilians, all that is left is a cost-benefit analysis, i.e., does the action warrant the cost.

As for the proverbial elephant in the room: What we see in Gaza is neither unintended nor accidental, it is indifferent, and to reduce it to "collateral damage" is obscene.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
How many civilian deaths are acceptable in the context of war?

None? Is it even possible for modern war to be carried out without civilian casualties? If no civilian causalities should be acceptable, then should war not be carried out by the State? Should the State just let terrorists run amok?

I know I am typing this from the safety of my home. No missiles or rockets flying overhead here. It makes me feel a little sick talking about something so serious in a rather casual setting, but this question I think needs to be discussed. This site’s members make a lot Israel threads. NBC says Israel has killed a lot of people in Lebanon in the past couple weeks. During WW2, the allies bombed the heck out of Japan and Germany. They “dehoused” them, i.e. purposefully targeted civilian neighborhoods. Are these scenarios acceptable, in your eyes?

If you view that some collateral damage is acceptable due to its inevitability, how much collateral damage is acceptable (in your view)? And would you still feel that way if it was your family killed in war as civilian casualties?



Military necessity, along with distinction, proportionality, humanity (sometimes called unnecessary suffering), and honor (sometimes called chivalry) are the five most commonly cited principles of international humanitarian law governing the legal use of force in an armed conflict.

Military necessity is governed by several constraints: an attack or action must be intended to help in the defeat of the enemy; it must be an attack on a legitimate military objective,[17] and the harm caused to protected civilians or civilian property must be proportional and not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.[18]

Distinction is a principle under international humanitarian law governing the legal use of force in an armed conflict, whereby belligerents must distinguish between combatants and protected civilians.[a][19]

Proportionality is a principle under international humanitarian law governing the legal use of force in an armed conflict, whereby belligerents must make sure that the harm caused to protected civilians or civilian property is not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage expected by an attack on a legitimate military objective.[18] However, as Robbie Sabel, Professor of international law at the Hebrew University, who has written on this topic, notes: “Anyone with experience in armed conflict knows that you want to hit the enemy’s forces harder than they hit you… if you are attacked with a rifle, there is no rule that stipulates that you can only shoot back with a rifle, but using a machine gun would not be fair, or that if you are attacked with only one tank you cannot shoot back with two.”[20]

Humanity is a principle based on the 1907 Hague Convention IV - The Laws and Customs of War on Land restrictions against using arms, projectiles, or materials calculated to cause suffering or injury manifestly disproportionate to the military advantage realized by the use of the weapon for legitimate military purposes. In some countries, weapons are reviewed prior to their use in combat to determine if they comply with the law of war and are not designed to cause unnecessary suffering when used in their intended manner. This principle also prohibits using an otherwise lawful weapon in a manner that causes unnecessary suffering.[21]

Honour is a principle that demands a certain amount of fairness and mutual respect between adversaries. Parties to a conflict must accept that their right to adopt means of injuring each other is not unlimited, they must refrain from taking advantage of the adversary's adherence to the law by falsely claiming the law's protections, and they must recognize that they are members of a common profession that fights not out of personal hostility but on behalf of their respective States.[21]


One key aspect is that a declaration of war is required:


Section III of the Hague Convention of 1907 required hostilities to be preceded by a reasoned declaration of war or by an ultimatum with a conditional declaration of war.

Some treaties, notably the United Nations Charter (1945) Article 2,[23] and other articles in the Charter, seek to curtail the right of member states to declare war; as does the older Kellogg–Briand Pact of 1928 for those nations who ratified it. See certified true copy of the text of the treaty in League of Nations, Treaty Series, vol. 94, p. 57 (No. 2137).


The Kellogg-Briand Pact and the UN Charter both prohibit aggressive war, or wars where the only objective is expansion of territory.

One irony that never really escaped notice is that the countries of the West had previously operated without any restraint at all in the aggressive expansionism of their empires and colonialist objectives, but once they reached the peak of their power, they suddenly switched gears and said "Okay, now everyone has to play nice!"

Many people still view the West's attitude on the subject as hypocritical and duplicitous. Our governments criticize and ostracize other nations for not obeying principles which our leaders do not faithfully practice themselves. This is the primary reason why the West often finds itself at odds with other nations and factions in the world today. We don't practice what we preach. While hypocrisy and double standards have become part and parcel of Western political thought and moral values, other nations of the world don't share such a peculiar and absurd viewpoint.

However, since the West has been operating from a position of strength for the past couple of centuries, we are the ones who decide what is right and wrong in the world, and it doesn't matter to us what other countries think.

So, to answer your question, "How many civilian deaths are acceptable in the context of war," the real answer is, whatever government says is acceptable. Our government and military will decide, and there's absolutely nothing anyone can do to question that or challenge it - since our government is in a position of strength.
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
Our government and military will decide, and there's absolutely nothing anyone can do to question that or challenge it - since our government is in a position of strength.
On my optimistic days, I disagree with the above. If we accept the above, it becomes inevitable. I don’t want to make this thread about anarchism, but I will say I been thinking and like usual, I think anarchism is the solution. The thinking is there would be less centralized military power and less reasons for conflict in the first place absent of a State in the context of an anarchist setting. I am unsure if it is appropriate to explore this thought further in this thread, but I do think anarchism can be a viable solution to war in general.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Let me ask a question...
It is WWII the allies have just landed in France and started their drive toward Germany, then we have a bunch of hand-wringers start advocatling for a cease fire. Your opinion?
The Allies in WWII, demanded unconditional surrender from Germany and Japan, so there was no chance Germany or Japan would try world domination again. They learned from WWI and Armistice of 11 November 1918. That WWI diplomatic surrender of Germany, allowed sour grapes to remain, alive, which led to the rise of Hitler, who did it all again. So, at the end of WWII, they punished Germany to break their spirit and make them atone for their evil empire dreams and atrocities. Germany since then has remain peaceful and civilized. This is a good example of what works and what cycles terror. Actions mean more than words.

The problem in the Middle East are the terrorist thugs are using human shields. They are exposing the civilians to harm. For some reason the Political Left in the US does not see the thugs being liable for the civilian deaths caused by their actions. The thugs use a type of terror based law fare, where the civilians have no choice. Their resistance to potential harm will make them be labeled rhetorical enemy, and that will bring the death penalty from the thugs. The Civilians buy time, knowing Israel will try to be careful, since they are more civilized than their thug leaders.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
On my optimistic days, I disagree with the above. If we accept the above, it becomes inevitable. I don’t want to make this thread about anarchism, but I will say I been thinking and like usual, I think anarchism is the solution. The thinking is there would be less centralized military power and less reasons for conflict in the first place absent of a State in the context of an anarchist setting. I am unsure if it is appropriate to explore this thought further in this thread, but I do think anarchism can be a viable solution to war in general.

I suppose it would be a larger question as to whether any government has the right to go to war at all and under what circumstances.

For example, one might question whether 9/11 was a legitimate pretext for invading Afghanistan. After all, Afghanistan did not formally declare war on the United States, nor did the United States declare war on Afghanistan. Likewise, the invasion of Iraq was justified by the belief that Iraq was secretly producing weapons of mass destruction, a charge which later proved to be false. And again, there was no formal declaration of war on Iraq, so any military action against them might be considered more akin to a "police action," not an official "war."
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I suppose it would be a larger question as to whether any government has the right to go to war at all and under what circumstances.

For example, one might question whether 9/11 was a legitimate pretext for invading Afghanistan. After all, Afghanistan did not formally declare war on the United States, nor did the United States declare war on Afghanistan. Likewise, the invasion of Iraq was justified by the belief that Iraq was secretly producing weapons of mass destruction, a charge which later proved to be false. And again, there was no formal declaration of war on Iraq, so any military action against them might be considered more akin to a "police action," not an official "war."


The invasion of Iraq was a 'Special Military Operation'.

Up to that point, Iraq was NATO's proxy in the strategic containment of Iran. US foreign policy has seldom been so incoherent as it was then.
 
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