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How Much History is there in Genesis?

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Staff if this is in the wrong place I apologize. Not sure where else to put this thread.

Recently I decided to begin reading the entire Bible again. I am now reading it as a non-Abrahamic, which is different.

I started with Genesis of course. I have just finished reading it today.

Doesn't Genesis seem to be a mish mash of differing traditions that don't really entirely tie together?

The pre-history prior to Abraham appears constructed trying to recast Sumerian myth as actual history. Am I wrong?

Then when we get to Abraham, going on the knowledge that Genesis is a post-Babylonian exile work, his history appears to be largely full of metaphors symbolizing the nation of Israel much later in history.

Again, am I wrong? Am I thinking too much here?
 

Bob Dixon

>implying
Thinking too much? Nah; continue thinking because it'll help you understand.
Genesis could contain a bit of history, or it could contain none at all. But I think that it doesn't matter; for me, looking for real history in the Bible is kind of missing the point.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Thinking too much? Nah; continue thinking because it'll help you understand.
Genesis could contain a bit of history, or it could contain none at all. But I think that it doesn't matter; for me, looking for real history in the Bible is kind of missing the point.

Oh I agree I'm just pointing out interesting little things I caught onto while reading it.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Staff if this is in the wrong place I apologize. Not sure where else to put this thread.

Recently I decided to begin reading the entire Bible again. I am now reading it as a non-Abrahamic, which is different.

I started with Genesis of course. I have just finished reading it today.

Doesn't Genesis seem to be a mish mash of differing traditions that don't really entirely tie together?

The pre-history prior to Abraham appears constructed trying to recast Sumerian myth as actual history. Am I wrong?

Then when we get to Abraham, going on the knowledge that Genesis is a post-Babylonian exile work, his history appears to be largely full of metaphors symbolizing the nation of Israel much later in history.

Again, am I wrong? Am I thinking too much here?
I agree that reading the Bible from an Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic view point can be very different. It seems like you also have some background knowledge of the subject, which also ends up making quite a difference.

I would say that the pre-historical or primeval portion of Genesis is not mean to be historical. I think, like many of the sources it borrowed from, it was meant to be myth and/or epic. We can just look at the various doublets that we find in Genesis, and see that the audience, and authors most likely didn't see this stuff to be factual. I think the best example is the creation stories. Right from the beginning, we get to clearly distinct creation stories, that disagree with each other on key elements, yet both were seen to be "true." To me, that signifies that they were in fact myths that meant to symbolize a deeper meaning.

Within these beginning mythological stories though, I do think we find some historic truth. As with many epics and myths, there are historical facts added to the story. Sometimes they are so deeply buried, that they mean nearly nothing anymore, while others can be pulled out to help gain a better understanding. I think the Table of nations can be one of these stories that help us realize a little more about who the Hebrews were (as they clearly linked themselves to the surrounding areas, which I believe was a way to symbolize that they were a random assortment of people who formed a new tribe).

Getting into the stories of Abraham, and later, the question of historical accuracy is much more difficult. There are different camps on this subject, or more like a spectrum, ranging from the minimalists, or the maximalists. Those who see nothing being true, to those who see it nearly all as being true. Personally, I fall more in the middle (maybe a little closer to the maximalist group, but still quite in the middle).

I do think that the ancestral stories (Abraham, Sarah, etc) are based on historical knowledge. Now, there are obviously some errors in the stories, but that will happen with an oral tradition. But much of what is described does fit an earlier period than the Monarchy, or later periods. Many of the names, customs, etc. fit better within an earlier timeframe, and really would not fit into the later time frames (as in, it is unlikely they would have made up such stories as some of the customs simply were so different. If they weren't actually remembered from an earlier time, it is hardly likely that they would have made up customs that were simply against what they stood for).

Now, pulling the historical framework out of the various other narrative is a very difficult task, but we can get some some certainty that we are probably talking about historical facts. It is just a hard process to distinguish between what is historical, and what isn't.

At the same time, we have to deal with what probably was a purposeful composition of a national epic, a story explaining their origins. That will also cause some problems.

An even bigger difficulty though is that much of modern scholarship is relying on the JEDP theory, which in its original form, is falling apart.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Doesn't the story of Joseph in Genesis seem to cast the Hebrews as the Hyksos or is that just me? It has Joseph basically being treated like a Pharaoh at the end of the book, including the mummification of both he and Jacob. It also says the Egyptians mourned his father.

This appears like some revisionist Egyptian history to make the Hyksos look good. At least some of Joseph's story is very late because Potiphar and other names in it are late period Egyptian names. A good deal of time after the Bronze Age.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Staff if this is in the wrong place I apologize. Not sure where else to put this thread.

Recently I decided to begin reading the entire Bible again. I am now reading it as a non-Abrahamic, which is different.

I started with Genesis of course. I have just finished reading it today.

Doesn't Genesis seem to be a mish mash of differing traditions that don't really entirely tie together?

The pre-history prior to Abraham appears constructed trying to recast Sumerian myth as actual history. Am I wrong?

Then when we get to Abraham, going on the knowledge that Genesis is a post-Babylonian exile work, his history appears to be largely full of metaphors symbolizing the nation of Israel much later in history.

Again, am I wrong? Am I thinking too much here?

I think it's fair to say that the early Genesis authors were deeply influenced by Mesopotamian mythology, sure. And there are places very early in Genesis where the Redactor seems to have edited with a heavy hand, welding together pieces from different Biblical Authors without much in the way of transition or smoothing. But Genesis is ultimately doing its own thing. I'm not sure it's fair to essentially accuse it of rehashing Sumerian myth into history.

Also, Genesis is not a work of the post-Babylonian Exile. The Redaction of the book into the Pentateuch may have been post-Babylonian Exile, but the book itself is much earlier. It's a collection of J and E fragments, and is unlikely to date from later than the seventh century BCE, and portions of it from much earlier. I know some scholars today want to argue for a later dating, but their evidence is, to my mind, at least, extremely unconvincing.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Well Levite what of the pre-history of Genesis do you think could actually be historical?

Genesis talks about Shem, Ham and Japeth but it gives two different accounts of the scattering of mankind. One of these accounts neglects to mention the flood at all.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Well Levite what of the pre-history of Genesis do you think could actually be historical?

Genesis talks about Shem, Ham and Japeth but it gives two different accounts of the scattering of mankind. One of these accounts neglects to mention the flood at all.

Of the stuff in the first 12 chapters of Genesis, I am not particularly motivated to call any historical. I don't feel any need for it to be literally factual, I am more interested in the theological and mystical interpretations of it. It works for me as mythopoeic materials, and that's good enough. Hell, I'm not even convinced that it was intended to be taken as literal history, but that's a different story, and a case I'm not prepared to argue.

As for the rest of Genesis, I presume there is some kernal of fact at the heart of the stories, but I have no problem with the notion that they have been...embellished.

I am not all that concerned about Genesis' historicity, mostly with later texts. But what I am concerned about is all post chapter 12-- from Abraham onward.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Well sure I don't dispute Abraham could have been real. I wonder if Jacob was. Jacob's character clearly also represents the nation of Israel.

If Abraham was anything like genesis records he was Henotheist. He called his god El Elyon, and the book says his brother Nahor and father had differing gods.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Well sure I don't dispute Abraham could have been real. I wonder if Jacob was. Jacob's character clearly also represents the nation of Israel.

If Abraham was anything like genesis records he was Henotheist. He called his god El Elyon, and the book says his brother Nahor and father had differing gods.

You may be right. Ancient Israelites were certainly mostly henotheist before monotheism became dominant. If there was a historical Abraham, it is entirely possible he was henotheist. Because there is no outside evidence one way or the other for a historical Abraham, I confess that I prefer to think he was a monotheist, though I don't deny that many of his descendants were henotheists for a considerable period.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Doesn't the story of Joseph in Genesis seem to cast the Hebrews as the Hyksos or is that just me? It has Joseph basically being treated like a Pharaoh at the end of the book, including the mummification of both he and Jacob. It also says the Egyptians mourned his father.

This appears like some revisionist Egyptian history to make the Hyksos look good. At least some of Joseph's story is very late because Potiphar and other names in it are late period Egyptian names. A good deal of time after the Bronze Age.


dont play the Hyksos game

there is no connection
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Well sure I don't dispute Abraham could have been real. I wonder if Jacob was. Jacob's character clearly also represents the nation of Israel.

If Abraham was anything like genesis records he was Henotheist. He called his god El Elyon, and the book says his brother Nahor and father had differing gods.


abraham is a literary creation, this is welll known
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Staff if this is in the wrong place I apologize. Not sure where else to put this thread.

Recently I decided to begin reading the entire Bible again. I am now reading it as a non-Abrahamic, which is different.

I started with Genesis of course. I have just finished reading it today.

Doesn't Genesis seem to be a mish mash of differing traditions that don't really entirely tie together?

The pre-history prior to Abraham appears constructed trying to recast Sumerian myth as actual history. Am I wrong?

Then when we get to Abraham, going on the knowledge that Genesis is a post-Babylonian exile work, his history appears to be largely full of metaphors symbolizing the nation of Israel much later in history.

Again, am I wrong? Am I thinking too much here?


there is very little historicity in genesis.

some of the legends may have a historical core but its so far removed from reality, its not worth mentioning.


genesis is so fragmented its tough to describe its evolution.


what I will point you to is a wonderful piece of scholarship that may help you to start to understand genesis

The Legends of Genesis: V. Jahvist, Elohist, Jehovist, the Later Collections
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
I would say it contains historical errors and history also some myths what cannot be proven to be historical wrong or right.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I agree with you mostly FOuad. I think Abraham and such likely existed, however far from the actual historical reality Genesis may be.

I'll say what I say to people about Pagan figures I think mythology exaggerates about such as demigods- the ancients generally did not go inventing people. Their lives were much too difficult and harsh. They didn't have time on their hands to go inventing imaginary figures.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
I agree with you mostly FOuad. I think Abraham and such likely existed, however far from the actual historical reality Genesis may be.

I'll say what I say to people about Pagan figures I think mythology exaggerates about such as demigods- the ancients generally did not go inventing people. Their lives were much too difficult and harsh. They didn't have time on their hands to go inventing imaginary figures.

I don't think only Genesis has i though, i mean the salvation true human-sacrafice was also practices by Greeks and Egyptians, incarnated gods, sons of god and it continues..
Religions and ideas were passed down orally, some mixed together and some teachings stayed pure. For example in Genesis we have a person called Enoch, the only scriptures that talks about Enoch in detail is the Book Of Enoch, that was found with the DDS. Its defiantly a fiction book.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
If you like, would you kindly expand upon that?

Sure. Genesis is a collection of stories and myths from our earliest tribes. They are historical in that they are a part of our history. They are a part of us that goes further back than written history. Some of those stories may even be based on actual events and people. Some of them aren't but what does that matter, they are still a part of those people that we came from. History isn't just about facts, its about people and their lives. These stories are a part of the lives of ancient people and therefore a part of history.

An example of when the stories are based on actual people and events would be Noah's flood. I'm sure there was a major flood at some point that wiped out a few communities and one of the survivors of that flood was named Noah.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I think Noah is based on Utnapishtim from Sumerian mythology. He was said to be an ancestor of Gilgamesh.

The epic of Gilgamesh as a text is much older then Genesis, and we know the Semites originate in Sumer.
 
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