How Much of Homer's Illiad is Historical?

[angellous_evangellous]

I'd say about as historical as Die Hard 4.

 

[gnostic]

Homer (flourished in 8th century BCE) did mention a few thing that clearly exist at the time of Bronze Age Greece and Troy.

The large size, 8-figured shield that Ajax the Greater carried at Troy, can also be seen decorate inlaid on a dagger that depict a scene of lion-hunting.

In book 10, Homer also described Odysseus wearing a leather felt cap with boar tusks, which also existed and discovered at Dendra, not far from Mycenae. With the boar-tusks cap, there is also a full armor, dating at around 1400 BCE.

The above photos comes from MYCENEANS site.

The photo below, showed an ivory-relief of Mycenaean warrior, with both boar-tusk cap on his head and the figure-of-eight shield in the background. This is now in the museum on the island of Delos (source of the image: Britannica Online Encyclopedia):

So what Homer written, was not completely fictional.

As for people in the Iliad, I really can't say.

 

[Oberon]

I know they found the city of Troy, which for a long time, many believed to be just a myth. That raises the question, how much of the Illiad is historical? Did any of the characters from the Illiad actually exist? Achilles, Patroclus, Agammemon, Menalus, Hector, etc.

Scholars used to doubt all of it. Then they found troy. So they doubted all the rest of it. Then they found evidence in hittite texts which mention Priam and Paris. It seems that even after a long oral and mythic tradition, remnants of historical material may be maintained.

 

[gnostic]

There some names mention in Linear B, both in Pylos and Knossos (Crete), but most of these names are probably of divine nature than humans. Names that are later found in archaic and classical Greek literature.

 

[gnostic]

Scholars used to doubt all of it. Then they found troy. So they doubted all the rest of it. Then they found evidence in hittite texts which mention Priam and Paris. It seems that even after a long oral and mythic tradition, remnants of historical material may be maintained.

I've forgotten about the Hittite texts.

Here, have some frubals.

 

[Oberon]

There some names mention in Linear B, both in Pylos and Knossos (Crete), but most of these names are probably of divine nature than humans. Names that are later found in archaic and classical Greek literature.

That's because linear B is greek. In fact, there are syntactical/grammatical archaicisms in Homer which aren't present in Linear B (even though Linear B is actually dated prior to homer). However, Hittite (while Indo-European) is quite a different language (one of the central languages used in the reconstruction of pre-indo-european due to several factors, including the bi-gender nominal inflection).

 

[Oberon]

Here, have some frubals.

Thank you!

 

[Circle_One]

Are the people on the Achean side also fictionalized circle one? Meaning they didn't literally exist? Agammemnon, Achilles, etc.?

It's not known 100% either way, whether they did or did not exist, as there's, thusfar, been no historical evidence found of them, as far as I've learned, anyway. However, the majority of the Achaean countries are widely believed to be historical places, though their name in Antiquity have been lost, and so we cannot, with absolute certaintainty, name every one as it's called today.

Noooooooooooo!!! I can't lose him!!!

Circle_One:
Do you know around what century that they were written? I've found sources stating when it was, but they blur the line between verbal and written composition and I can't get a consistent answer.

Honestly, I have that answer, I just don't remember it at this exact moment. Let me check my notes in the morning and I'll get back to you.

 

[The Enlightened One]

Honestly, I have that answer, I just don't remember it at this exact moment. Let me check my notes in the morning and I'll get back to you.

Thank you

 

[Oberon]

Honestly, I have that answer, I just don't remember it at this exact moment. Let me check my notes in the morning and I'll get back to you.

The date as well as manner of composition are still debated topics. Usually, both epics are dated to c. 8th century. However, earlier (and some later) dates have been proposed. Additionally, while most scholars are willing to acknowledge that there isn't really anyway to know whether both epics were composed by the same author, there are arguments for and against. More interesting are the arguments concerning orality and multiple authors. The arguments against oral composition of the poems took a big hit after Parry and Lord, but the question as to whether both were composed by a single author or multiple authors is ongoing.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Scholars used to doubt all of it. Then they found troy. So they doubted all the rest of it. Then they found evidence in hittite texts which mention Priam and Paris. It seems that even after a long oral and mythic tradition, remnants of historical material may be maintained.

I wonder if we can read this as a national/tribal reference rather than a reference to a person?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Oberon,

Are you referring to this letter?

Information about the Hittites - Text Translations

Piyama-radu = Paris?

And this one for Priam - http://www.hittites.info/translations.aspx?text=translations/historical/Piyama-radu+Letter.html

 

[Caladan]

When Heinrich Schliemann first discovered and excavated Troy he dressed the Homeric characters and plots on the site and its artefacts. later on archaeologists disconnected the epic from the site. however the latest excavations have somewhat changed the trend, and as Oberon says names found in Hittite texts breath a new life into the enigma, whatever the level of historicity we can find in the Iliad, it does have some correct insight on Greek weapons, not to mention that the Catalogue of Ships in the Iliad generates plenty of speculations. part of the analysis is determining the anachronism of the warfare and weapons and other details Vs what they might project from concrete Greek reality.

 

[Duck]

I know they found the city of Troy, which for a long time, many believed to be just a myth. That raises the question, how much of the Illiad is historical? Did any of the characters from the Illiad actually exist? Achilles, Patroclus, Agammemon, Menalus, Hector, etc.

Troy as a city existed. There was probably at some point a war, perhaps even with a protracted siege. It might have even been over wife-stealing/swapping/trade or something. The persons involved in the war/siege may have been Agamemnon, Menelaus, Hector, Paris, Ajax etc. Do I think that Ajax was trained by a centaur? not really. When one deals with epic poems, legends and myths, sometimes one deals with kennings, metaphor and the like.

So, should one take the Iliad and Oddessy as literal? No. Could these epics have had some kernel of truth? Yes.

 

[Riverwolf]

Well, according to my dad (who is very proud of his Greek heritage), the historical Trojan war was fought over trade-route taxes. When I brought up that my history class teachers said that it wasn't known whether or not it was real, he was still adamant about his explanation.

However, I don't know where he got this from.

 

[Oberon]

Oberon,

Are you referring to this letter?

Information about the Hittites - Text Translations

Piyama-radu = Paris?

And this one for Priam - Information about the Hittites - Text Translations

No, I was thinking of the 13th century hittite letter which refers to Aleksandu (Alexandros/Paris) of Wilusa (Ilius).

 

[gnostic]

Oberon,

Are you referring to this letter?

Information about the Hittites - Text Translations

Piyama-radu = Paris?

I don't know what the name for Paris mean, but with Priam's name, in Greek, means "ransom". Priam original name was Podraces.

According to the myth, Heracles went to war against Priam's father, Laomedon, who was then king of Troy. Heracles killed Laomedon and most his sons, when Troy had fallen to the hero. Heracles captured Priam and his sister, Hesione. Heracles gave Hesione to one of his captains (Telamon) as Telamon's concubine.

Heracles allowed Hesione ransom just one person, and she ransomed her brother with her veil. So Podraces changed his name to Priam, and Priam became the new king of Troy.

From what I remember about the Hittite letter, Piyama-radu means in Hittite "gift?", so this Piyama-radu could be Priam, instead of Paris. Depending on the context of the word "ransom", it could also means "gift".

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Interestingly enough the Roman poet Virgil also was of the belief that the Romans were descendents of Troy.

I noticed that when I was reading Dante's Inferno. Dante seemed to believe the same thing, and had the characters instrumental in the downfall of Troy in the lower circles of Hell, and Virgil never had anything nice to say about them.