How often do theists believe they have evidence for God's existence?

[Sabour]

I beg to differ. Creation is simply not a religiously significant matter, to the best of my understanding.

Sure, many people will disagree. What can I do about that?

Am not sure I understood. Can you explain ?

 

[Levite]

There also people with meaningful spiritual lives who are simply not theists.

I've met agnostics with rich spiritual lives, but I'm not sure how many atheists I've met with rich spiritual lives.

But it's a big world, so I certainly can't rule it out.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I've met agnostics with rich spiritual lives, but I'm not sure how many atheists I've met with rich spiritual lives.

But it's a big world, so I certainly can't rule it out.

Once I hear someone define "spiritual" in a coherent way (and in a way that doesn't make "spiritual" just a synonym for "supernatural" or "religious"), I'll be able to tell you whether I have a rich spiritual life or not.

 

[LuisDantas]

In my experience, theists generally fall into two categories: those who choose instinctively to believe in God because they need the surety and structure of a fundamentalist religious life;

While I don't disagree, I think this is an irrational reason to accept a belief... akin to the person who doesn't believe his bank account is overdrawn because he really needs his rent cheque to clear.

I agree, but then again I don't expect theism to be rational in and of itself. It does not need to be, either, and arguably does not benefit from rationality.

What it does need is not to get in the way of rationality. Faith itself can be fairly neutral when it comes to rationality.

and those who believe in God because they are open to spiritual experiences, and who incorporate doubt and uncertainty into a conscious choice to believe that the numinous they yearn for is out there, yearning back.

So they set aside their uncertainty in favour of certainty? I'm not sure I understand what you're going for here.

If I understood this part of Levite's post, he means the conscious choice to accept uncertainty and shape it into active faith in the validity of one's choices as tempered by that uncertainty.

That makes sense to me. We all have to deal with far more situations than one can rationally deal with.

I don't understand why he associates faith with theism, but he apparently does.

(...)
Edit: science is the study of physical reality, so if science has nothing to say about God, then this means that God can have no measurable effects on physical reality. From my perspective, you're trying to re-cast God as nothing more than an aesthetic preference... but what would make such a God any sort of God at all?

That is perhaps the single most important of all roles of deities, though: that of providing inspiration.

 

[LuisDantas]

Am not sure I understood. Can you explain ?

I am just saying that morality is a relevant matter and a good justification for many things, definitely included religious practice.

Wondering how the universe came to be is not really a comparably good justification for much of anything.

 

[LuisDantas]

I've met agnostics with rich spiritual lives, but I'm not sure how many atheists I've met with rich spiritual lives.

But it's a big world, so I certainly can't rule it out.

I stand surprised. I would expect you to have met many.

 

[Sabour]

I am just saying that morality is a relevant matter and a good justification for many things, definitely included religious practice.

Wondering how the universe came to be is not really a comparably good justification for much of anything.

Where do questions about life and the purpose of existence stand in that equation ?

 

[LuisDantas]

Where do questions about life and the purpose of existence stand in that equation ?

Well behind morality, I think. They only have religious significance to the extent that they trouble some people.

 

[Thief]

Excellent post. I largely agree, with one exception:



There also people with meaningful spiritual lives who are simply not theists.

Spiritual lives and no higher Power?
a contradiction in terms.

 

[Thief]

Well behind morality, I think. They only have religious significance to the extent that they trouble some people.

Religious significance?....and you are not troubled?

 

[LuisDantas]

Spiritual lives and no higher Power?
a contradiction in terms.

There are those who think so, I know.

It is sad, come to think of it.

 

[LuisDantas]

Religious significance?....and you are not troubled?

Troubled by what?

Edited to add: do you mean "questions about life and the purpose of existence"?

I guess not. I just don't think those are important matters, at least from a religious perspective, beyond the clearly significant level that we are responsible for the quality of life and social health of the world we exist in.

It is something of a bothersome distraction to spend time wondering whether there is an "ultimate purpose", an "afterlife", or the like.

Quite frankly, I have no time for that, nor do I encourage anyone to attempt to meddle in such affairs.

 

[Thief]

Try climbing off of the fence and make a statement.

Do theists believe they have evidence for the existence of God?
(how often is a bit of jerk)

We have evidence at ALL times.
Look up...down....and then go look in the mirror.

Now if you insist....call everything an accident.
Including yourself.

Works for you?

I've seen at least one science documentary dealing with probability.
The likelihood of all of this coming together as it has.....
without God.....

Well maybe you could wander off and take another look.

 

[LuisDantas]

Try climbing off of the fence and make a statement.

Is it that hard to understand such a simple mind as mine, Thief?

Do theists believe they have evidence for the existence of God?
(how often is a bit of jerk)

Apparently many do, which is a bit odd. Some seem to realize that they do not, except perhaps to their own personal satisfaction - which is of course fine.

We have evidence at ALL times.
Look up...down....and then go look in the mirror.

Maybe it is just me, but it sure looks like you simply can not accept that we atheists exist.

Tough luck, boy.

Now if you insist....call everything an accident.
Including yourself.

Works for you?

Existence proper is accidental far as anyone can truly know.

Not "everything" is. We do not exist in a chaosphere or anything.

On the other hand, to your apparent frustration, many of us do not have a dire craving for "purposes" or promises of afterlives.

I never quite understood why that seems to trouble you so much, but that is how things are.

I've seen at least one science documentary dealing with probability.
The likelihood of all of this coming together as it has.....
without God.....

The probability of things being as they are is 100%.

Whether there is any deity involved, I guess no one truly knows. I don't really care either way, although I very much doubt there is such a thing as a creator god.

Even if I knew for a fact that there is one, that is just about as unimportant as anything could possibly be. Things are what they are, regardless of how badly some people may need to see some sort of "author" in existence itself.

Well maybe you could wander off and take another look.

You really have a hard time accepting the existence of atheism, it seems. I hope you find some relief.

 

[Thief]

Is it that hard to understand such a simple mind as mine, Thief?



Maybe it is just me, but it sure looks like you simply can not accept that we atheists exist.

Tough luck, boy.




Existence proper is accidental far as anyone can truly know.

Not "everything" is. We do not exist in a chaosphere or anything.

On the other hand, to your apparent frustration, many of us do not have a dire craving for "purposes" or promises of afterlives.

I never quite understood why that seems to trouble you so much, but that is how things are.




The probability of things being as they are is 100%.

Whether there is any deity involved, I guess no one truly knows. I don't really care either way, although I very much doubt there is such a thing as a creator god.

Even if I knew for a fact that there is one, that is just about as unimportant as anything could possibly be. Things are what they are, regardless of how badly some people may need to see some sort of "author" in existence itself.




You really have a hard time accepting the existence of atheism, it seems. I :drool:hope you find some relief.

And you think dissecting a post can win the day?

Tough luck.....boy.

Fact is...(yes it is a fact).....I like science.

Science leans to likelihood and probability.
Want to cast that aside?.....tough luck....boy!

Science leans to explanation and experiment.
Want to cast that aside?.....tough luck....boy!

Science (as far as I care) shows how God put it all together.
Including you.

And I suspect heaven has concern what stands from the dust.

And I have read how some things will be cast into the fire.

Tough luck....boy!

 

[LuisDantas]

Thief, you may like some conception of what you believe to be science.

But you don't really have much respect for it.

For that matter, I don't think you are very respectful of religion or even belief, either. Otherwise you would not waste so much time attempting to brandish the threat of hellfire to those who won't care.

Here is hoping that you outgrow that.

Take care.

 

[Thief]

Thief, you may like some conception of what you believe to be science.

But you don't really have much respect for it.

For that matter, I don't think you are very respectful of religion or even belief, either. Otherwise you would not waste so much time attempting to brandish the threat of hellfire to those who won't care.

Here is hoping that you outgrow that.

Take care.

I didn't write the book.

But I don't believe in God because of scripture....or religion.
I believe in God as a creation is a reflection of it's Creator.

I believe in cause and effect (science).
I do not believe substance begets life.

Spirit first.

 

[LuisDantas]

Best of luck then.

 

[Sabour]

Luisdantes

You are one of the most members that I respect on this forums for the way you approach things. Even though you have a thing against muslims I can still see why you hold that idea.


I have read through your replies that you think that the purpose of existence and some questions about life are not important.

I really hope you look at theses questions and see what answers are provided not only by islam, but by other religions.

 

[LuisDantas]

Luisdantes

You are one of the most members that I respect on this forums for the way you approach things. Even though you have a thing against muslims I can still see why you hold that idea.

Uh? I do not have anything against Muslims.

I am fiercely anti-theistic and therefore opposed to the Quran and to the (current understanding of?) Islamic religion, which is something else entirely.

I oppose the excesses of unquestioned theism. Not the people, who deserve a lot of consideration.

I have read through your replies that you think that the purpose of existence and some questions about life are not important.

They may well be important for individual people, at least in some circunstances. But they are very minor in significance for religious purposes.

I really hope you look at theses questions and see what answers are provided not only by islam, but by other religions.

You seem to think I did not.