How old would an Muslim say the Earth/Universe is?

[A-ManESL]

'The Truth' has always been an epithet used by the Biblical Jesus Christ.

Thus, when we see the authors of the Koran repeatedly using 'The Truth' in creation of the Universe, then we can be confident that Jesus was involved.

What does this have to do with the subject of the thread here? You have yet failed to understand my objection to your theory. Time taken for creation doesnt equal age of the thing. If the earth was created in x number of years it doesnt mean that its age is x years. Do you agree with this or not?

 

[Bowman]

What does this have to do with the subject of the thread here?

The authors of the Koran have repeatedly mentioned the Son (i.e. The Word) during creation - that is why.

When discussing Koranic creation ayahs, you should consider all that has been written.

Clearly your god "allah" required help from the Son in creating the Universe.

You have yet failed to understand my objection to your theory. Time taken for creation doesnt equal age of the thing. If the earth was created in x number of years it doesnt mean that its age is x years. Do you agree with this or not?

As already shown to you, early islamic commentary on the Koran caused the writers of tafsirs to conclude that the entire Universe was 6,000 years old.

This conclusion was entirely their own....drawn directly from the Koran at the time that it was supposedly revealed.

Thus...if you want to add an additional few hundreds years to the 6,000 then go right ahead, brother...

Your Koran is still wrong either way...

 

[A-ManESL]

lol, Im asking for a simple yes/no. Time taken for creation doesnt equal age of the thing. If the earth was created in x number of years it doesnt mean that its age is x years. Do you agree with this or not?

 

[Bowman]

lol, Im asking for a simple yes/no. Time taken for creation doesnt equal age of the thing. If the earth was created in x number of years it doesnt mean that its age is x years. Do you agree with this or not?

It does according to the authors of the Koran, brother.

If you want to add more time to the 'revelation' of these statements in the Koran, then go right ahead...as you would only be adding another few hundred years to the 6,000 already mentioned.

 

[A-ManESL]

Im asking for a simple yes/no from you. If the earth was created in x number of years it doesnt mean that its age is x years. Do you agree with this or not?

 

[Bowman]

Im asking for a simple yes/no from you. If the earth was created in x number of years it doesnt mean that its age is x years. Do you agree with this or not?

Where do you keep getting the 'earth was created' from brother?

Please show me...

الله الذي خلق السموت والأرض وما بينهما في ستة أيام ثم استوى على العرش ما لكم من دونه من ولي ولا شفيع أفلا تتذكرون يدبر الأمر من السماء إلى الأرض ثم يعرج إليه في يوم كان مقداره ألف سنة مما تعدون​

 

[A-ManESL]

What I am asking from you is a simple question. I will relate it presently to the Quran. For the moment this is a question just for you. The reason I am asking this is that I feel you havent understood my objection yet.

So leaving out the Quran, can you tell me, supposing the earth was created in x number of years it doesnt mean that its age is x years. Do you agree with this or not?

 

[skydivephil]

What I am asking from you is a simple question. I will relate it presently to the Quran. For the moment this is a question just for you. The reason I am asking this is that I feel you havent understood my objection yet.

So leaving out the Quran, can you tell me, supposing the earth was created in x number of years it doesnt mean that its age is x years. Do you agree with this or not?

I agree Bowman needs to answer you question. But perhaps you could answer mine. The scientific evidence is that the Earth took more than hundred million years to form.
http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v3/n6/full/ngeo883.html
But the Qur’an says the Earth was created in 6 days.
So it seems to be just plain wrong or you have to redefine days a 1,000 years or even 10,000 years. But then its still wrong.
The way used by many Muslims to save the situation is to say a day is some undefined period of time. But this turns the passage into gibberish. Imagine you had a contractor that said the project would be finished in 6 periods of time. But they don’t define what those periods of time. It could be 6 days, 6 months, 6 centuries. Such a statement would have no meaning. Why would you specify 6 of these periods of time? How could such a statement make any sense whatsoever?

 

[A-ManESL]

I agree Bowman needs to answer you question. But perhaps you could answer mine. The scientific evidence is that the Earth took more than hundred million years to form.
http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v3/n6/full/ngeo883.html
But the Qur’an says the Earth was created in 6 days.
So it seems to be just plain wrong or you have to redefine days a 1,000 years or even 10,000 years. But then its still wrong.
The way used by many Muslims to save the situation is to say a day is some undefined period of time. But this turns the passage into gibberish. Imagine you had a contractor that said the project would be finished in 6 periods of time. But they don’t define what those periods of time. It could be 6 days, 6 months, 6 centuries. Such a statement would have no meaning. Why would you specify 6 of these periods of time? How could such a statement make any sense whatsoever?

This is an immature way to understand the message of the Quran, for to explain worldly phenomena is not the purpose of the Quran. I am a Muslim and I don't believe that the Quran says that the earth was created in 6 days in real, what it really means metaphorically is that God's glory is vast. (In fact I don't even believe that Adam and Eve existed for real) In 7th C Arab society the primary mode of communication was oral and oral transmission often took place through allegories and stories. The Quran reflects that way, in fact the word Quran itself means recitation. Not everything is meant to be taken literally in the Quran(see verse 3:7 of the Quran). Many Muslims have taken the interpretation of 6 long periods of time (their translation of days), I am well aware of that. My stand is that it does not matter either way, unless you don't understand the underlying idea being conveyed.

My argument against Bowman is that he is yet to show me a verse regarding age of the earth. He has shown a verse pertaining to creation.

 

[skydivephil]

But fi they aree not specific periods of time, why specify 6 of them? It makes no sense to specifiy a partricular number if the duration of the period is unknown.

 

[A-ManESL]

But fi they aree not specific periods of time, why specify 6 of them? It makes no sense to specifiy a partricular number if the duration of the period is unknown.

You're missing the point. Such specifics are built into allegories for various reasons, such as to keep the monotony away, to give the listener a feel of the story. In oral cultures where story telling and people listening to them, is the primay mode of transmission this way is quite common. Hence the Quran's message which could have been put in dry theological terms is often told through stories and analogies. Hence everyone can read and relate to them. This is the same for nearly all holy books, eg the Bible I have chanced to read. To take them literally and to argue over these specifics in such a legalistic way is quite unfair, because neither are these the substance of such books, nor were the books intended for such purpose.

Regards

 

[Falvlun]

'The Truth' has always been an epithet used by the Biblical Jesus Christ.

Thus, when we see the authors of the Koran repeatedly using 'The Truth' in creation of the Universe, then we can be confident that Jesus was involved.

And Jesus has always been referred to as a prophet, and not the son of God, in the Koran. Don't you think it's a bit ridiculous to take a theological definition from the Bible and then say that that defintion applies to the Koran?

And your objection doesn't even matter anyway: According to Christian theology, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all one person: They are the Triune God, singular. So, even if God used Jesus to help build the universe, he was only using another aspect of himself. So, unless you claim that if I use my right hand to build a house, I have somehow not been able to do it all by myself, then your attempt to show that God wasn't the ultimate Creator fails.

 

[Bowman]

What I am asking from you is a simple question. I will relate it presently to the Quran. For the moment this is a question just for you. The reason I am asking this is that I feel you havent understood my objection yet.

So leaving out the Quran, can you tell me, supposing the earth was created in x number of years it doesnt mean that its age is x years. Do you agree with this or not?

The Koran does not single-out the earth, brother.

If it did, then you would have been able to show us in the Arabic.

Thus...its better that you rethink your position....

 

[A-ManESL]

The Koran does not single-out the earth, brother.

If it did, then you would have been able to show us in the Arabic.

Thus...its better that you rethink your position....

I was asking of your opinion, because you seem to be confusing time taken for creation with age. A simple yes or no would have sufficed. I just fail to see why you arent answering that. But leaving that aside do you mean to say that the Quran does not have a single verse about its age?

 

[Bowman]

And Jesus has always been referred to as a prophet, and not the son of God, in the Koran.

Totally wrong.

Jesus is many things in the Koran...including the Son, The Praised One, The Preacher, The Guardian of Paradise, God, etc, etc...

Don't you think it's a bit ridiculous to take a theological definition from the Bible and then say that that defintion applies to the Koran?

The authors of the Koran thought it most appropriate.

And your objection doesn't even matter anyway: According to Christian theology, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all one person: They are the Triune God, singular.

Better think again, brother....you apparently don't understand the Trinity...

So, even if God used Jesus to help build the universe, he was only using another aspect of himself.

God the Son is what brought the Universe into being, brother.

This is proclaimed in both the Holy Bible and later copied into the Koran.

So, unless you claim that if I use my right hand to build a house, I have somehow not been able to do it all by myself, then your attempt to show that God wasn't the ultimate Creator fails.

Since when is your 'right hand' deity?

 

[Bowman]

I was asking of your opinion, because you seem to be confusing time taken for creation with age. A simple yes or no would have sufficed. I just fail to see why you arent answering that. But leaving that aside do you mean to say that the Quran does not have a single verse about its age?

Its obvious that you can't read any Arabic whatsoever, brother.

Zero.

The Arabic given to you specifically mandates everything in creation..i.e. all creative acts...of which, you have no choice but to accept that mankind was the last creative act.

This being the case, the Koran puts a date on all of this as 6,000 years.

Now...your task would be to determine how long mankind has been around....stack this date ontop of the 6,000 years and you will have the date that you are so desperately striving for.

Either way....the authors of the Koran have it dead wrong.

 

[search the scriptures]

" According to Christian theology, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all one person"

3 persons who are co equal, co eternal, co powerful, that make up one God -The divine Almighty strength of the universe, the creator JEHOVA.

Jesus(Gods word) created all things, with the father and the holy spirit. God created all things

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image

one in will, strength, power and rule as one God, JEHOVA

Gen 1:26 And God said

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Hear o israel: JEHOVA our God(the father, the word, and the holy spirit) one(numeral of "properly united") JEHOVA

 

[A-ManESL]

Its obvious that you can't read any Arabic whatsoever, brother.

Zero.

The Arabic given to you specifically mandates everything in creation..i.e. all creative acts...of which, you have no choice but to accept that mankind was the last creative act.

This being the case, the Koran puts a date on all of this as 6,000 years.

Now...your task would be to determine how long mankind has been around....stack this date ontop of the 6,000 years and you will have the date that you are so desperately striving for.

Either way....the authors of the Koran have it dead wrong.

Never did I say that I can understand Arabic. But that doesnt mean that I cannot think logically.

I dont agree that the Quran mandates any date, 6000+X or whatever. my point remains that this is not the correct interpretation of the verse. I don't agree that all verses have to be taken literally, specially not those that aren't the substance of the Book. (see verse 3:7)

What I wish to point out that your claims that the Quran says that the age of the earth is 6000 years is not logical on even the most literal reading. Where does the Quran say the age of all creation is 6000 years? It says God created everything in six "days". You have given a verse number to that effect. Uptil that there isnt any logical error. Now lets see a verse about the age, as well. For until you do that that you cant say that the Quran says that the age of the earth/universe is 6000 years.

Its like I was created as a baby in 9 months. You are now saying that it means my current age is 9 months!

Regards

 

[skydivephil]

Lets face facts. The Qur’an said something quote specific and it got it wrong. Now your only way out is to say it didn’t mean what it said. Now how do you know what the author meant? Why would the text be any less monotonous if it said created the Earth over a vast expanse of time ? Please answer that.

 

[A-ManESL]

Lets face facts. The Qur’an said something quote specific and it got it wrong. Now your only way out is to say it didn’t mean what it said. Now how do you know what the author meant? Why would the text be any less monotonous if it said created the Earth over a vast expanse of time ? Please answer that.

Firstly its not my way out, for I am not looking to prove anything to you. You dont understand the context of the 7th C, and are trying to apply a legalistic kind of scrutiny on a work which was not meant to be examined in such a way, and cannot withstand it. You are forgetting the old maxim, "No idea is ever intelligible save the context of its time." This is just it. The whole way of the recitation (Quran) is such that it is full of context of its time and its verses reflect that.

In the context of 7th C Arabia by hearing the verse the people thought Oh how great and vast is God's glory, and not this idea of scientifically meaning a 6000 year old earth (for which no specific verse has been quoted yet btw). That was the purpose of the Quran, and it is how the verse should be understood today. How do I know it? Well, if you really try to understand religion you will understand its purpose and how far removed it is from saying things on the physical plane. That will give you a preliminary idea of how to analyse religion. You can start by reading some works by spiritual people of this day and age, for perhaps you can relate easily to that line of thought.