How our attitudes differ.

[ChrisP]

Haha, ALLLL BLAAACKS! No sheep jokes pls.

We hate change in this country (#1 reason why I'm leaving as soon as I can afford to). There's no reason to bother us, we have no air force, a coast guard for a navy and a very small (but quite elite ) army.

We supply half of the worlds food, so I don't think anyones going to be rocking the boat over here. Besides the closest things Australia at 3000 miles.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

I think we should stop outsourcing to India before it leads to our doom. And we should stop letting China make all of our crappy products. though capitalism has been good to our country, it is starting to make us spiral downwards, by putting headquarters overseas and outsourcing to the Asians. I dont think we would fall like Rome though, i dont think anybody would be bold enough to invade the U.S.

 

[ChrisP]

I think we should stop outsourcing to India before it leads to our doom. And we should stop letting China make all of our crappy products. though capitalism has been good to our country, it is starting to make us spiral downwards, by putting headquarters overseas and outsourcing to the Asians. I dont think we would fall like Rome though, i dont think anybody would be bold enough to invade the U.S.

Why invade when you can sit back and watch it self combust ? I think America will be around for a long time, but it's power is quickly waning. Within my lifetime (provided I don't die tomorrow) I think it will go the way of Germany at present.

RE: India and China; The balance of power has already swung. These two cultures have been strong for a long time, but (China in particular) have kept themselves isolated from the west.

Both cultures have a strong business orientation, some would go as far as to say they are natural traders.

Start learning Mandarin and Hindi fellas! :shout

 

[Mr Spinkles]

In the UK or Europe it is not possible for even the poorest drop out not to have a full health care provision, equal to the best available

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't many private medical practices in the UK far superior to the government-funded ones? I was treated at one public UK hospital and I have doubts as to whether it was the "best available".

 

[Darkdale]

I think we should stop outsourcing to India before it leads to our doom. And we should stop letting China make all of our crappy products. though capitalism has been good to our country, it is starting to make us spiral downwards, by putting headquarters overseas and outsourcing to the Asians. I dont think we would fall like Rome though, i dont think anybody would be bold enough to invade the U.S.

China is the only country that could do it. But if Canada and Mexico helped us out, I don't think they'd be successful. Invading the United States would really help China out with their over-population problem.

 

[Bennettresearch]

First thing to note is that Americans are far more polarised in their views than us.

Maybe this an influence from the EU. I have been hearing about a possible EU since I was very young and have only now seen it come into any kind of fruition. Maybe it was inspired by the United States.

The Conservative v Liberal position transcends nearly all their views.
The Idea of socialism, and anything approaching it, is quite abhorrent to a large majority.

Well forgive us. In viewing history Americans have seen all kinds of whacky socialist, fascist, dictatorships and whatever governments in Europe that we have been abhorent to let it influence us. The main battle here is still the same, keeping government from running our lives and living in a nanny state.

On the social front, they have rarely mentioned the huge number of white and coloured poor in the states. Neither have they offered anything like a social policy to help solve it.

I don't know what planet you have been living on but but social aid has grown to be a major part of our budget in the US. MAybe everyone doesn't get help but it isn't for lack of trying.

UK. and European views are seen as almost communistic.(we would strongly deny this) Communism has a quite different meaning for us.

This has been a misnomer as staunch capitalists don't really draw that much distinction between the two. You are right in observing that Socialism is considered to be a bad word in the US.

There is now total free trade between the EU countries, free movement of labour and co-operative health care and social provision for each others citizens.

I am happy for you. I am glad that Europe has finally been putting aside its differences but for them to look over here and wonder about us is a little silly. America ws founded on a fierce independence that is maybe being eroded by the new "enlightenment" that wants to attack the very foundations of our country. The anti-america crowd is growing strong. What is scary is what they might want to replace it with.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Terry--

I'd just like to make a few comments on some of your comments.

First thing to note is that Americans are far more polarised in their views than us.

The Conservative v Liberal position transcends nearly all their views.
The Idea of socialism, and anything approaching it, is quite abhorrent to a large majority.

I think this is pretty much accurate. This is because American culture is what some political scientists call an adversarial culture. Often, when Americans feel they have been done an injustice, they take action: they sue the other party or file a class-action suit against a whole company; they write to legislators, they try to introduce bills, they organize protests and demonstrations and campaigns. People in countries like Japan, Denmark, and Sweden, however, are very different: they are far less likely to raise hell about percieved injustices and to try to influence public policy in ways other than simply by voting for their favored political party. American citizens are, in fact, quite active in public affairs, despite the misleadingly low voter turnout for Presidential elections.

On the social front, they have rarely mentioned the huge number of white and coloured poor in the states. Neither have they offered anything like a social policy to help solve it.

First of all, "poor" is a relative term. In the U.S., many people who are below the poverty line have cable TV. Secondly, who are "they" (the people who "have rarely mentioned the ...poor" and have not offered "a social policy to help solve it")?

With out Covering the different emphasis in Religion and the way legislation now covers religious and sexual intolerance, It is easily seen that the European and American systems and cultures have never been so divergent than today.

From what I've found on Google, there are only three nations in Europe (Spain, the Netherlands, and Belgium) that allow same sex marriages. (See this BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4636133.stm ). So I don't see a whole lot of difference there. As far as religious tolerance, it's my understanding that Europe suffers from it's fair share of Islamophobia and anti-Semitism. (See this ABC article http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=289575&page=1 ).

France even banned all religious symbols their public schools. Like many Americans, I am totally baffled by such a ban, and hope it never happens in the U.S.

This is no way a criticism of America But a detailing of some of the ways in which we not only differ but have a different concept of the rights and duties of both the people and the state.

I think one major difference is the idea of socio-economic class: Americans simply don't engage in the kind of class warfare seen in other countries. In fact, around 90% of Americans call themselves "middle class". Americans in the "lower" economic class generally regard their situation as temporary and believe that they can move up financially through hard work. And American history is filled with people who did just that: companies that started out in someone's garage, inventors who struck it rich with a great idea, pioneers who found gold, oil, etc. Americans just don't regard each other by their "class" the same way people do in other countries: to Americans, the wealthy are simply average Jo's who worked hard, had talent, and/or got lucky.

I remember when I was in England, I was eating at a cafeteria for students. I had finished eating, so I picked up my dishes, my utensils etc. I was going to throw away my leftovers and put my tray and dishes away, but I couldn't find where to put them. I asked one of the employees where I could take them, and she sort of smiled awkwardly and said she would take them. An English friend of mine then told me that I was supposed to just leave my dishes and the employees would take them for us. He also told me that when the pitchers of OJ and milk ran out at the table, we weren't supposed to go fill them ourselves, but simply hold the empty pitchers in the air and wait for an employee to come fill it up for us.

Anyway, to make a long story short (too late ) it took me a while to get used to this--at school cafeterias in the U.S., the students put their trays away themselves, and if they need more drink, they go get it themselves (except at fancy private schools, I suppose). I dunno, it's different. : )

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't many private medical practices in the UK far superior to the government-funded ones? I was treated at one public UK hospital and I have doubts as to whether it was the "best available".

Most of the private hospitals are highly efficient at doing small op's, but they don't take on serious long term illness. they like Cosmetic surgery, Hip operations contracted from the health service etc.
very few have full coronary care wards. and none have accident and emergency.
They are set up to do insurance operations on a set budget.
Some have very good diagnostic systems, again mostly for pre insurance checks or to speed up operations.

They do what they can within the patients budget, and then transfer them to the national health service.

So you see they are not a complete option for anyone.

Terry___________________
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

First of all, "poor" is a relative term. In the U.S., many people who are below the poverty line have cable TV. Secondly, who are "they" (the people who "have rarely mentioned the ...poor" and have not offered "a social policy to help solve it")?

Cable TV is hardly a yard stick to measure poverty, I would prefer to use the availability of health and social care and good schooling. and the training for and the availability of work.
The poor seem to be an underclass in the USA No one talks about them Except to say it is their fault. If you are low skilled and live in a low employment area and especially if you have a health problem, your chances in life are very bad indeed.Facilities to give these people a leg up so they can get out of the poverty trap are minimal.
They! is the system that has probably decided that the poor problem is too costly to deal with.

From what I've found on Google, there are only three nations in Europe (Spain, the Netherlands, and Belgium) that allow same sex marriages. (See this BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4636133.stm ). So I don't see a whole lot of difference there.

The Uk now allows Gays to register partnerships that give the same legal rights as married people. though neither the Government nor any church has permitted gay marriage. Should a church do so, and it is up to the churches,then together with the partnership agreement they would be defacto married.

As far as religious tolerance, it's my understanding that Europe suffers from it's fair share of Islamophobia and anti-Semitism. (See this ABC article http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=289575&page=1 ).

Religious intolerance is pretty well endemic throughout the world. and although religious and sexual hatred and discrimination is covered by the criminal law here, there will always be an underlying problem. If you demonstrated outside a LDS church in the UK you would be prosecuted.

France even banned all religious symbols their public schools. Like many Americans, I am totally baffled by such a ban, and hope it never happens in the U.S.

I remember when I was in England, I was eating at a cafeteria for students. I had finished eating, so I picked up my dishes, my utensils etc. I was going to throw away my leftovers and put my tray and dishes away, but I couldn't find where to put them. I asked one of the employees where I could take them, and she sort of smiled awkwardly and said she would take them. An English friend of mine then told me that I was supposed to just leave my dishes and the employees would take them for us. He also told me that when the pitchers of OJ and milk ran out at the table, we weren't supposed to go fill them ourselves, but simply hold the empty pitchers in the air and wait for an employee to come fill it up for us.

Over the last twenty years I have visited most of the UK universities,in my work.
A vast majority have self help systems, though most will have at least one, more expensive, eating place where you can take visitors.

Anyway, to make a long story short (too late ) it took me a while to get used to this--at school cafeterias in the U.S., the students put their trays away themselves, and if they need more drink, they go get it themselves (except at fancy private schools, I suppose). I dunno, it's different.

: )
Most schools in the UK in cluding private, have self help canteens. I think you found exception to prove the rule, Though very young children usually have help.. Terry__________________________
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

 

[michel]

Good posts terry, but you unfortunately left out one tiny detail- in respect of operations in Health service hospitals - the achievievement of targets set by the Labour government. That is why Hospitals would rather do ten Cataract ops, instead of 1 Heart bypass. Actually, i think the Health minister now recognizes that fact.

 

[michel]

France even banned all religious symbols their public schools. Like many Americans, I am totally baffled by such a ban, and hope it never happens in the U.S.

Well, you may not like it, and I don't blame you for it ( to some extent) But when the sikh motorbyke rider refuses to wear a helmet, and then dies in an accident because he was not wearing one, you can bet your bottom dollar his family will sue the government.

Just as in the fact that people are not allowed to wear crash helmets when they walk into a Bank here - though Muslim ladies are allowed to keep theit faces covered.........

To be frank, who is to know that she is a lady ?:help:

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Terry-- I took the liberty of deleting the QUOTE tags that you had around your last post to make it easier to read....hope you don't mind.

Cable TV is hardly a yard stick to measure poverty, I would prefer to use the availability of health and social care and good schooling. and the training for and the availability of work.
The poor seem to be an underclass in the USA No one talks about them Except to say it is their fault. If you are low skilled and live in a low employment area and especially if you have a health problem, your chances in life are very bad indeed.Facilities to give these people a leg up so they can get out of the poverty trap are minimal.
They! is the system that has probably decided that the poor problem is too costly to deal with.

I thought you were trying to understand, not criticize...

Yep, if you don't have any skills and you live in a low employment area and if you have health problems, you're probably not going to be as financially successful as other people. Like many Americans, I don't see a problem with this. From the perspective of many Americans, the government is responsible only for providing necessities: it's not the government's job to make sure everyone who is unskilled and lives in a low employment area and has a health problem is as financially well off as people who are skilled and live in high employment areas and are healthy. It's the individual's job to develop a skill, to move to a more prosperous area, and to get through difficult times by relying on friends, family, and charitable groups--not the government. What you percieve as neglect of the poor and needy, Americans see as self-reliance (though I think Americans have been steadily moving away from that over the past couple of decades).

The reason no one talks about the poor in the US is because 1) the "poor" in the US are much wealthier than many of the wealthy in other nations, 2) 90% of Americans consider themselves "middle class" (or "working class"). Few Americans consider themselves part of a poor lower class.

Religious intolerance is pretty well endemic throughout the world. and although religious and sexual hatred and discrimination is covered by the criminal law here, there will always be an underlying problem. If you demonstrated outside a LDS church in the UK you would be prosecuted.

Really? Wow, that is different. Americans would consider that a violation of free speech.

That's another thing about Americans: they are extremely caught up in what they believe to be their rights. In general, Americans favor dealing with the problems associated with people having lots of freedom (problems like crime, disorder, an 'adversarial culture') rather than giving up those freedoms (including freedom of possession--material wealth) to alleviate those problems.

Over the last twenty years I have visited most of the UK universities,in my work.
A vast majority have self help systems, though most will have at least one, more expensive, eating place where you can take visitors.

: )
Most schools in the UK in cluding private, have self help canteens. I think you found exception to prove the rule, Though very young children usually have help..

Oh okay. This conversation just reminded me of that story, so I thought I would share it.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I thought you were trying to understand, not criticize...

no critism intended Just an attempt to show how different our attitudes are.
The Uk spends large sums setting up and enlarging colleges and skill centers in deprived areas. ( with fees paid from central funds) this allows the unemployed to learn skills to be self employed or move to areas where the skills are required.
We find this far cheaper than supporting them long term.

Really? Wow, that is different. Americans would consider that a violation of free speech.

The law on discrimination and atacks on people in regard to sex and religion were recently strengthened. Free speach is still there but in private, not in public where it could be seen to provoke violence.

That's another thing about Americans: they are extremely caught up in what they believe to be their rights.

The Europen attitude tries to concentrate of Duties rather than Rights, not entirely successfuly.

Terry_______________________
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Well, you may not like it, and I don't blame you for it ( to some extent) But when the sikh motorbyke rider refuses to wear a helmet, and then dies in an accident because he was not wearing one, you can bet your bottom dollar his family will sue the government.

What does that have to do with students wearing religious symbols in schools?

 

[Darkdale]

The law on discrimination and atacks on people in regard to sex and religion were recently strengthened. Free speach is still there but in private, not in public where it could be seen to provoke violence.

My good good gods! Yes, we do have different attitudes. Americans try very hard to have the most liberal interpretation of free speech as possible.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

My good good gods! Yes, we do have different attitudes. Americans try very hard to have the most liberal interpretation of free speech as possible.

Why?

Terry_________________________________
Blessed are those who bring peace, they shall be children of God

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

What does that have to do with students wearing religious symbols in schools?

France has alway had a massive Algerian Population, who like Corsicans are full citizens.
It is only recently that Flaunting ones religion has become dominant, and it has threatened the state and security. All they have done is say Ok we can't do anything about it in the street. but we don't want to promote division in our schools.

Seems reasonable.

Terry_______________________
Blessed are those who bring peace, they shall be children of God

 

[Mr Spinkles]

France has alway had a massive Algerian Population, who like Corsicans are full citizens.
It is only recently that Flaunting ones religion has become dominant, and it has threatened the state and security. All they have done is say Ok we can't do anything about it in the street. but we don't want to promote division in our schools.

Seems reasonable.

Wow, our attitudes are very different about free speech. To me, an American, that does not seem reasonable at all--it seems like the government trampling on peoples' individual rights. I think the American attitude on this issue is best summed up by Benjamen Franklin:

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

What you refer to as "Flauniting" one's religion, Americans consider freedom of religious expression--and we think it's a good thing. I'm by no means a religious person, but I would fight tooth and nail against any legislation trying to get people to stop "Flaunting" their religion, their politics, their thoughts on anything. I think most Americans would do the same.

That's one of the interesting things about American culture, I think: diversity is celebrated, not scourned as a source of division. Although diversity is certainly a source of division, it is also, paradoxically, unifying in many ways. Kids in the U.S. are taught at a young age that we're all different, that it's okay to be different, and that we shouldn't all try to be the same. Where's the fun in sameness, anyway? :jiggy:

I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, of course....I realize that I'm a product of my environment, just as you are, and that which attitude is "correct" is a tricky business.
I thought these attitudes were, for the most part, shared by Europeans....