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How Paul Contradicts Jesus on the Most Important Doctrine of Christianity

Muffled

Jesus in me
I could say the same, but I know I'm right so no need to.

I believe I am always rational so you can say it but it won't be true. I believe RF does not accept that you can know you are right but only that you can believe you are right and I believe that is because you find your irrationality acceptable.
 
I believe I am always rational so you can say it but it won't be true. I believe RF does not accept that you can know you are right but only that you can believe you are right and I believe that is because you find your irrationality acceptable.
Well I'm glad you said that LOL. I guess you are sure the OT God (monster) is the true Parent Creator. See if we are not brainwashed by religion, we are free to see reality for what it is. OT god is not the True Parent and the "great" Paul was a liar, thief and murderer. So tell me why you believe the OT god is our Parent? Because the bible tells me so......LOL.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
Most Christians should probably call themselves "Paulians" since they side with Paul over Jesus on the question of how to get to heaven.

Observe that Paul states:

Romans 10:13: "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

However, Paul directly contradicts the guy that he claims is his savior, since Jesus says:

Matthew 7:21-23: "NOT EVERYONE who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Clearly in Matthew 7, Jesus is stating that many people will call on his name and perform actions in his name, and yet, they will not go to heaven. Yet the majority of Christians (especially Protestants) believe Paul over the guy they claim is their savior. Why do I, as an agnostic, care? Well, it's amusing to me to watch Christians ignore all of the verses where Jesus clearly teaches that good works are necessary to go to heaven. Just another example of the intellectual dishonesty of many Christians. Not only do they willfully ignore the overwhelming scientific evidence for evolution, they also willfully ignore the words of Jesus himself. Strange, isn't it?

Context is important. You're taking Romans 10 out of context. When put in it's proper context, nothing written contradicts what Jesus said.

Paul is talking about how one is saved by what they believe in their heart and profess with their mouth, which comes out of their heart, in opposition to the Jew's belief that they are saved by obeying the written Law as given by Moses.


Romans 10:
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?



***We see clearly here that to call on the Lord requires you first believe in Him. But in context he's talking about a belief that comes out of the heart. Professing with your mouth what you believe with your heart. That's how faith is defined in this passage.
We also see that submitting to Christ is linked with someone who believes in Christ.

You are taking that one verse out of context by trying to claim that merely saying the Lord's name with your mouth automatically saves you, when that is clearly not what is being conveyed by Paul who is talking about a genuine belief of the heart that is expressed verbally, and links this genuine belief with submission to Christ and abandonment of their own ways and laws and self-righteous ideas.


***This is in line with what we see Jesus communicate:

John 14:
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

John 13:
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 8:
Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”


Luke 9:
And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

John 10:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

John 15:
You are my friends if you do what I command you.

John 12:
If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.



***We see that Jesus links genuine belief, and genuine discipleship (following Him), with a change in action.

That is why Jesus was saying that not all who claimed to call Him "Lord" and do things in His name actually was. They were doing their own things, not submitted to Christ, and presumably didn't believe in their heart. (The Greek word paul used for "believe" implies a trust and reliance on, not merely a mental acknowledgement that something is true).


***Which we also see Jacob re-iterate for us in James 2:
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

***And John tells us the same in 1 John;
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

***Peter says it in 1 Peter:
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”



***We see elsewhere Paul expresses the same sentiments:
1 Corinthians 11

Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Galatians 5:
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Ephesians 5:
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Philippians 2:
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.



***It is not the deeds that save, but genuine faith results in deeds as evidence of that faith. A faith without corresponding action is not real faith by definition.

That is why what Paul, Jesus, and Jacob are all saying is in unison on this issue.


 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
The NT gives you at least five Jesuses to choose from, Paul's, Mark's, Matthew's Luke's and John's.

Choose the one that says what you want to hear.

Or assemble your own Jesus from bits of all five. That's what most folk do.


They are all in unison and harmony about who Jesus was and what He said.
You're welcome to try to post verses from any of those writings you think prove those writers were in contradiction to each other.
Any verse you might try to pull out to demonstrate a supposed contradiction will, upon further study and proper application of logic (like context), be shown to actually be in harmony with each other.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They are all in unison and harmony about who Jesus was and what He said.
You're welcome to try to post verses from any of those writings you think prove those writers were in contradiction to each other.
Any verse you might try to pull out to demonstrate a supposed contradiction will, upon further study and proper application of logic (like context), be shown to actually be in harmony with each other.
I respectfully disagree.

For example, there are five different Jesuses, of three seriously different kinds.

The earliest Jesus we meet is that of Paul. This Jesus has many major gnostic qualities ─ he pre-existed in heaven with God (Philippians 2:5-8), he created the material universe (1 Corinthian 8:6), and he mediates between that universe and the (immaterial, pure, remote) God. We're told that he's born to a Jewish woman of the line of David but no other details. The Jesus of the author of John is also gnostic, also pre-existed in heaven (John 6:38, John 8:58 &c), also created the material world (John 1:2), also mediates between God and man. As with Paul, no specifics as to how the heavenly Jesus was made flesh, or how he's of the line of David.

The next is the Jesus of Mark. Mark's Jesus is a human born of an ordinary Jewish family, without angelic foretellings or mention of a virgin mother, is not of the line of David, and doesn't become son of God until God adopts him at the time of his baptism by John the Baptist, on the model in Psalm 2:7 whereby God adopts David as his son (made even more specific at Acts 13:33). Mark's Jesus is thus the only Jesus whose status as son of God accords with Jewish tradition rather than Greek (though of course Jewish culture had been influenced by Greek thought since Alexander's conquest of the region three centuries earlier, and Greek was the administrative and commercial language of Judea under the Romans.)

Then come the Jesuses of Matthew and of Luke. There is no suggestion that either pre-existed in heaven. Each of them is angelically foretold, and is born of a virgin (implicitly in Matthew, explicitly in Luke ─ an erroneous 'fulfillment-of-prophecy' invention based on the Septuagint, which renders Hebrew `almah ('young woman') in Isaiah 7:14 as Greek parthenos ('virgin'). Both these Jesuses are the result of divine insemination of Mary, a virgin. This means that these two Jesuses have God's own Y-chromosome (so the two incompatible genealogies invented to make Jesus a descendant of David are irrelevant anyway).

The only way those five models of Jesus can be turned into one is by imposing one's own preconceptions on the text that distort and pervert their plain meaning.
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
The earliest Jesus we meet is that of Paul. This Jesus has many major gnostic qualities ....The Jesus of the author of John is also gnostic,

You would need to specify exactly what you mean by "gnostic" before I could respond to it.

Your claim that John's gospel is gnostic is not only wrong, but ironically so, because there are many points in John's gospels and letters that were clearly written specifically to refute gnostic heresies that were floating around (like the idea that Jesus was never a man in the flesh, or never physically died on the cross).

The earliest Jesus we meet is that of Paul....─ he pre-existed in heaven with God (Philippians 2:5-8), he created the material universe (1 Corinthian 8:6), and he mediates between that universe and the (immaterial, pure, remote) God. We're told that he's born to a Jewish woman of the line of David but no other details.

None of that is contradicted by anything you'll find in the rest of the NT. And you haven't listed any specific verses you think contradict those.

The Jesus of the author of John is also gnostic, also pre-existed in heaven (John 6:38, John 8:58 &c), also created the material world (John 1:2), also mediates between God and man. As with Paul, no specifics as to how the heavenly Jesus was made flesh, or how he's of the line of David.

The next is the Jesus of Mark. Mark's Jesus is a human born of an ordinary Jewish family, without angelic foretellings or mention of a virgin mother, is not of the line of David,
...

Then come the Jesuses of Matthew and of Luke. There is no suggestion that either pre-existed in heaven. Each of them is angelically foretold, and is born of a virgin (implicitly in Matthew, explicitly in Luke

I must point out up front that many of your issues with the NT are based not on actual contradictions between two different letters, but your issues are based on a single faulty assumption - The assumption that just because an author didn't write about it that they didn't think it happened, or that they didn't believe it. But you cannot assume that is why. It would be wrong to even assume they didn't know about the information they left out, unless you have some reason to suspect they didn't. Especially when there are other explanations that make more sense and fit the evidence better.

For example:
Mark doesn't talk about the more spiritual side of the origin of Jesus OR the earthly virgin birth and Davidic line Matthew talks about - but that doesn't necessarily mean Mark didn't know about or believe in either of those things. You would be wrong to think that Mark just believed Jesus popped up out of no where one day, fully formed, simply because he omitted giving more information on that topic of where Jesus came from. Such a conclusion is not only bad logic, but there are clearly better explanations for why there is a difference in content between the gospels.

The different accounts can easily be harmonized together with all of it being true.
That comes from understanding the context in which these various gospels were written, to whom, and why they were written.
For instance, a difference in audience that reflects a different focus about what was most important to relate to the particular audience of their letter. Or at different points in history there were different theological issues that had to be addressed. There are also variations in which content is included based on the different eyewitness perspectives of the writers involved.

John's is written near the end of his death, after a lot has happened in the church since it's founding and many false teachers have arisen. As such, and with it's Greek audience in mind, an audience that might even be majority gentile church by this point, and even the Jews in the church might be native greek Jews who had more of a greek mindset rather than a hebraic mindset - so you get a focus on different issues that have to be addressed.
It focuses on the spiritual side of Jesus to put to rest the heretical ideas that Jesus might have just a man, or maybe was just a demi-god, or wasn't fully God, or wasn't fully man and was just a spirit. You also see John directly deal with with addressing the idea that John the baptist was the real messiah, which was another strain of false teaching we saw historically pop up early on, by recounting John's own denial of that idea.
There's likely simply no need to talk about the earthly geneaology of Jesus at this time because presumably it simply wasn't an issue of contention by this point by the later Greek church. It was the Judean hebrews who were always most concerned with these issues, which is why Matthew and Hebrews both have a greater focus on these aspects.
It was probably an issue of contention back when Matthew was written, during the early days of the Jerusalem based church, but ceased to be a concern by the time of John's writing, or at least wasn't an issue amount gentile converts or Greek Jews. Especially since that was already established in Matthew's gospel, which very likely was available to them by that time in a Greek translation. That could be another reason John doesn't see the need to retread a lot of the ground Matthew has already covered thoroughly.

Mark is the dictation of Peter's public telling of the Gospel to a Roman audience, presumably to a largely gentile audience. Speaking language is always more simple and abridged for most people, and has more time constraints about the amount you can convey in a single setting, which could also likely why it's the shortest gospel. A speaking format would explain more abridged content focusing on the high points necessary for his audience to come to faith. And Rome as a context makes things like Davidic genealogies, Messianic kingship, and even the fulfillment of certain old testament prophecies, not that relevant to dive into in the context of public preaching because it wouldn't be very meaningful to what is probably a mostly gentile audience or dispersed Jews more disconnected from Judean culture and teaching.

A perfect example of this truth of different audiences is the fact that Matthew is said to be the first Gospel written because it was written to the Jewish converts, before the Gospel went out to the gentiles. This is why in Matthew you find much more focus on the idea of Jesus as Messiah and King, with more focus on referencing Old Testament prophecy, imagery, and Hebraic concepts.

Luke is written as a comprehensive historical and overview, paired with Acts, with a stated aim to increase the reader's confidence in what they have heard by confirming various accounts and information.

and doesn't become son of God until God adopts him at the time of his baptism by John the Baptist,

Matthew, Mark, and Luke don't say that Jesus was adopted as God's son by baptism. They record the voice from Heaven affirming he IS God's son. So there is no textual contradiction with John.

Although everyone else may have to become sons by adoption through baptism into Jesus, that doesn't require that Jesus had the same requirement - we know this by the fact that Jesus was sinless yet still underwent the baptism of John, which was for the remission of sins. John in Matthew 3 affirms that Jesus had no need to be baptized by John, yet Jesus insists it should be done and seems to imply there's more of a protocol or prophectic issue that needs to be followed for other reasons beyond the need for the remission of sins.
It is likely Jesus did this as a prophetic picture or example of what others are to do if they want to follow Him and become like Him, considering that much of what we see Jesus do appears to be done for the sake of demonstrating to us how we are to live by first demonstrating it Himself.

Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
-Matthew 16

on the model in Psalm 2:7 whereby God adopts David as his son (made even more specific at Acts 13:33).

There's a few problems with your interpretation of that verse.
1. You're talking about adoption, but Acts 13 and Psalm 2 refer to being "begotten". A begotten son is not an adopted son. So Jesus was not adopted. In fact, He is referred to as the "only begotten son of God" by both John and Paul (John 3 and Hebrews 1). That means He proceeded from the Father through the process of conception and birth. Adam can't be called a begotten son of God, even prior to the fall, because Adam was formed from dust with life breathed into him. Adam was not begotten by birth with God giving conception of that birth.

2. Acts 13:33 is not, in context, referring to the baptism of Jesus by John. You're assuming it is, but there's nothing in that passage that would lead you to conclude that. In fact, the context clearly suggests that is not what is being referenced. It is either referring to a time before the world's creation or more likely simply referring to the incarnation of His earthly birth (which does not have to necessarily preclude his pre-existence before an earthly incarnation).

Regardless, Acts 13/Psalm 2 can't be referring to what you claim because Jesus wasn't adopted at any point, he was begotten. And you can't beget someone without a birth. He didn't undergo a birth at the baptism of John, so that's another reason logically the context of Acts 13 cannot be referring to the baptism of Jesus in water by John.

Mark's Jesus is thus the only Jesus whose status as son of God accords with Jewish tradition rather than Greek (though of course Jewish culture had been influenced by Greek thought since Alexander's conquest of the region three centuries earlier, and Greek was the administrative and commercial language of Judea under the Romans.)

Mark's account of the baptism of Jesus is the same as Matthew and Luke; a voice and sign from God affirms Jesus is His Son. So you don't have any reason to claim Mark is communicating something different.

─ an erroneous 'fulfillment-of-prophecy' invention based on the Septuagint, which renders Hebrew `almah ('young woman') in Isaiah 7:14 as Greek parthenos ('virgin'). Both these Jesuses are the result of divine insemination of Mary, a virgin. This means that these two Jesuses have God's own Y-chromosome (so the two incompatible genealogies invented to make Jesus a descendant of David are irrelevant anyway).

There's two problems with your statement:
1. The reading we get of Isaiah 7 doesn't come from the Septuagint's translation, but comes directly from what Luke and Matthew tell us happened; They both say Jesus was born of a virgin, and Matthew says this is a fulfillment of Isaiah 7.

2. There is nothing linguistically wrong with translating Isaiah 7 as "virgin" from the Hebrew word almah. Almah can mean virgin, but doesn't always mean virgin. The Hebrew language actually has no specific language for virgin. They have two or more words for young woman, which often implies unmarried, which by extension usually implies virgin, but we can show in the Bible and historically that none of those words are used exclusively for a virgin. So there's no basis for you to claim that Almah can't be translated as virgin. It is one of the legitimate ways of translating that word.

Contextually there's also reason to believe Isaiah 7 could refer to a virgin; because a young woman giving birth wouldn't be considered a miracle sign from God Himself unless she was a virgin or barren.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You would need to specify exactly what you mean by "gnostic" before I could respond to it.

Your claim that John's gospel is gnostic is not only wrong, but ironically so, because there are many points in John's gospels and letters that were clearly written specifically to refute gnostic heresies that were floating around (like the idea that Jesus was never a man in the flesh, or never physically died on the cross).
The gnostic qualities in both Paul and John are the ones I specified ─ a Jesus who pre-existed in heaven with God, and who made the physical universe. I gave you the citations.

No other Jesuses have those qualities.

The Jesus of Mark is the only Jesus to become the Son of God by adoption. He does not pre exist in heaven. He does not create the material universe. He is not of the line of David. His parents are ordinary Jews.

The Jesuses of Matthew and of Luke do not pre-exist in heaven either. Nor do they create the material universe. They are however the only Jesuses who are born by divine insemination. They are thereby subject to the absurdity of incompatible and obviously fake genealogies of descent from David, which even were they credible and compatible would be irrelevant to a person whose genetic father is God.

The contradictions between the three basic concepts of Jesus can't be reconciled. They're simply claims in ancient documents for scholarship to examine. If we're looking for an historical Jesus ─ which is the only interesting Jesus, since a 'Christ of faith' or spiritual Jesus can be anything you like ─ the only potentially credible place to start is Mark's Jesus. He has an ordinary Jewish mother, is born without angelic visitors or signs, uniquely isn't of David's line, uniquely becomes the son of God by adoption, and uniquely has sins that John the Baptist can wash away. He also fights with his family and badmouths his mother, giving him credibility as a human. (But in all four gospels, Jesus never mentions his mother but unkindly, with only one exception (Mark 3:31, Mark 6:3, Mark 15:40, Matthew 10:35, Luke 11:27. John 2:3, contrast John 19:26).

If you merely want a bald textual contradiction, a simple and usual one is

Mark 6:8 He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff.

Matthew 10:9 Take [...] 10 no bag [...] nor a staff​

Mark said it first, and is the synoptic template, so either the copying error or the difference of opinion arose with Matthew. (The more interesting thing about those passages in full (and Luke 10:4) is their reflection of Greek Cynic philosophy, but that's not our topic.)
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
The gnostic qualities in both Paul and John are the ones I specified ─ a Jesus who pre-existed in heaven with God, and who made the physical universe. I gave you the citations.

Calling it "gnostic" is inherently wrong when you are pulling the information out of the Bible. Gnostic is defined by what makes it different from the Bible, not what makes it similar to the Bible.

That would be like referring to mentions of Jesus as a man in the Gospels as the "islamic qualities of the gospels". No, it's Christian doctrine that Jesus was a man too. Islam didn't create that idea and doesn't lay claim to it exclusively. What makes something an Islamic view of Jesus is when they reject many parts of the Gospels about the divinity/resurrection of Jesus, and insert their own ideas/texts on top of that which disagree with what the Bible says.

In the same way, gnosticism rejects many things found in the New Testament and inserts things which are not found anywhere in the NT.

By definition a viewpoint is not gnostic if is derived entirely from the NT. That's called standard Christianity. By definition any viewpoint that would be labled as exclusively gnostic is a viewpoint that won't be supported by the NT text alone, but would require gnostic texts to add to the NT while also rejecting portions of what the NT says.

So that's why I asked you to clarify why you're calling it gnostic. Because nothing you quoted from the NT would qualify as being an exclusively gnostic idea - they are Christian ideas. They might be elements of the NT that gnosticism doesn't reject, but that doesn't mean gnosticism lays claim to those ideas.
What would make a gnostic idea was if the NT didn't support that idea, but gnostic texts did.

No other Jesuses have those qualities.

You are re-committing the same fallacy of bad assumptions I already corrected you on.

You ignored the points I made which refute your assumptions.

Since you didn't address those points, I will repost it for you;

I must point out up front that many of your issues with the NT are based not on actual contradictions between two different letters, but your issues are based on a single faulty assumption - The assumption that just because an author didn't write about it that they didn't think it happened, or that they didn't believe it. But you cannot assume that is why. It would be wrong to even assume they didn't know about the information they left out, unless you have some reason to suspect they didn't. Especially when there are other explanations that make more sense and fit the evidence better.

For example:
Mark doesn't talk about the more spiritual side of the origin of Jesus OR the earthly virgin birth and Davidic line Matthew talks about - but that doesn't necessarily mean Mark didn't know about or believe in either of those things. You would be wrong to think that Mark just believed Jesus popped up out of no where one day, fully formed, simply because he omitted giving more information on that topic of where Jesus came from. Such a conclusion is not only bad logic, but there are clearly better explanations for why there is a difference in content between the gospels.

The different accounts can easily be harmonized together with all of it being true.
That comes from understanding the context in which these various gospels were written, to whom, and why they were written.
For instance, a difference in audience that reflects a different focus about what was most important to relate to the particular audience of their letter. Or at different points in history there were different theological issues that had to be addressed. There are also variations in which content is included based on the different eyewitness perspectives of the writers involved.

John's is written near the end of his death, after a lot has happened in the church since it's founding and many false teachers have arisen. As such, and with it's Greek audience in mind, an audience that might even be majority gentile church by this point, and even the Jews in the church might be native greek Jews who had more of a greek mindset rather than a hebraic mindset - so you get a focus on different issues that have to be addressed.
It focuses on the spiritual side of Jesus to put to rest the heretical ideas that Jesus might have just a man, or maybe was just a demi-god, or wasn't fully God, or wasn't fully man and was just a spirit. You also see John directly deal with with addressing the idea that John the baptist was the real messiah, which was another strain of false teaching we saw historically pop up early on, by recounting John's own denial of that idea.
There's likely simply no need to talk about the earthly geneaology of Jesus at this time because presumably it simply wasn't an issue of contention by this point by the later Greek church. It was the Judean hebrews who were always most concerned with these issues, which is why Matthew and Hebrews both have a greater focus on these aspects.
It was probably an issue of contention back when Matthew was written, during the early days of the Jerusalem based church, but ceased to be a concern by the time of John's writing, or at least wasn't an issue amount gentile converts or Greek Jews. Especially since that was already established in Matthew's gospel, which very likely was available to them by that time in a Greek translation. That could be another reason John doesn't see the need to retread a lot of the ground Matthew has already covered thoroughly.

Mark is the dictation of Peter's public telling of the Gospel to a Roman audience, presumably to a largely gentile audience. Speaking language is always more simple and abridged for most people, and has more time constraints about the amount you can convey in a single setting, which could also likely why it's the shortest gospel. A speaking format would explain more abridged content focusing on the high points necessary for his audience to come to faith. And Rome as a context makes things like Davidic genealogies, Messianic kingship, and even the fulfillment of certain old testament prophecies, not that relevant to dive into in the context of public preaching because it wouldn't be very meaningful to what is probably a mostly gentile audience or dispersed Jews more disconnected from Judean culture and teaching.

A perfect example of this truth of different audiences is the fact that Matthew is said to be the first Gospel written because it was written to the Jewish converts, before the Gospel went out to the gentiles. This is why in Matthew you find much more focus on the idea of Jesus as Messiah and King, with more focus on referencing Old Testament prophecy, imagery, and Hebraic concepts.

Luke is written as a comprehensive historical and overview, paired with Acts, with a stated aim to increase the reader's confidence in what they have heard by confirming various accounts and information.


The Jesus of Mark is the only Jesus to become the Son of God by adoption. He does not pre exist in heaven. He does not create the material universe. He is not of the line of David. His parents are ordinary Jews.

You are commiting a fallacy of "argument from silence". It's a fallacy that makes unwarranted assumptions about what happened simply by the lack of mention of something.
But that is a logically invalid form of argument.

Here's an example of why it's a fallacious invalid form of argument: What if I tried to claim you've never gone to the store for groceries just because I can't any evidence of you mentioning doing that in your forum posts. There's a lot of things you don't write down, but just because you didn't write it down doesn't mean it didn't happen. We don't know if you did or did not go to the store. It would be wrong for us to try to state affirmatively that you've never been to the store, and then start making assumptions about why you've never gone to the store, such as the pure speculation that maybe you were rich so you hired servants to do this for you, even though we have no other evidence to support that conclusion. It's all pure speculation based on a bad fallacious assumption.

Likewise, your claims about Mark are pure speculation based on an invalid assumption drawn from the logical fallacy of an "argument from silence".


You are also only merely repeating your original assertion, thereby committing the logical fallacy of argument ad nauseam (thinking that you prove your case by merely repeating it, rather than responding to valid arguments that shot down your case). You are not even attempting to deal with the points I made which refute your assumption as unfounded:

Mark is the dictation of Peter's public telling of the Gospel to a Roman audience, presumably to a largely gentile audience. Speaking language is always more simple and abridged for most people, and has more time constraints about the amount you can convey in a single setting, which could also likely why it's the shortest gospel. A speaking format would explain more abridged content focusing on the high points necessary for his audience to come to faith. And Rome as a context makes things like Davidic genealogies, Messianic kingship, and even the fulfillment of certain old testament prophecies, not that relevant to dive into in the context of public preaching because it wouldn't be very meaningful to what is probably a mostly gentile audience or dispersed Jews more disconnected from Judean culture and teaching.

You are assuming that Peter/Mark didn't think Jesus had a Davidic lineage simply because he didn't mention it. Ignoring the fact that, given his audience, he had no real need to communicate that part of the Gospel to them at that time. People do that today all the time when they teach the gospel to new people in most parts of the world. It's not necessary to start from that point because they don't have an Old Testament foundation yet that would make that information meaningful to them. This only becomes a topic of preaching in modern times when you're talking with Jewish people.

The Jesuses of Matthew and of Luke do not pre-exist in heaven either. Nor do they create the material universe. They are however the only Jesuses who are born by divine insemination.

You are commiting the fallacy of "argument from silence" again.

Just because something isn't mentioned in a Gospel doesn't give you logical grounds to assume they didn't know about or believe that information. There are other reasons why someone would not include everything in their gospel, based on the audience they are communicating to.

You won't find a single verse in Matthew or Luke that would outright contradict any information given by John or Paul about the pre-existent nature of Christ.

They are thereby subject to the absurdity of incompatible and obviously fake genealogies of descent from David, which even were they credible and compatible would be irrelevant to a person whose genetic father is God.

The genealogies are not incompatible. One traces from Joseph, the other from Mary. Matthew's nativity account takes place more from the perspective of Joseph, while Luke's shows the perspective of Mary more.

The contradictions between the three basic concepts of Jesus can't be reconciled.
You haven't shown there to be any contradiction, because your conclusions are based solely on an "argument from silence" which is not a valid logical argument to make in support of a conclusion.

For instance; the absence of a a genealogy in Mark doesn't give you a logical basis to conclude that Mark did not believe Jesus had a Davidic lineage.
On top of that, there are other better explanations for why it wouldn't have been included, which I already gave you.
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
If we're looking for an historical Jesus ─ which is the only interesting Jesus, since a 'Christ of faith' or spiritual Jesus can be anything you like ─ the only potentially credible place to start is Mark's Jesus. He has an ordinary Jewish mother, is born without angelic visitors or signs, uniquely isn't of David's line, uniquely becomes the son of God by adoption, and uniquely has sins that John the Baptist can wash away. He also fights with his family and badmouths his mother, giving him credibility as a human. (But in all four gospels, Jesus never mentions his mother but unkindly, with only one exception (Mark 3:31, Mark 6:3, Mark 15:40, Matthew 10:35, Luke 11:27. John 2:3, contrast John 19:26).

Your conclusion is based on a particular premise, and without that premise your argument falls apart.
You start from the premise that supernatural stuff doesn't happen, or wouldn't have happened to Jesus, and therefore conclude that Mark must be the most accurate representation of Jesus and the others are false.

So this really isn't a debate about whether or not there are contradictions in the texts of the NT - but it's really a debate about whether or not the information contained in the gospels could possibly be true.
Now that's a worthwhile debate that could be had, and much apologetics has been generated on that topic already, but it's ultimately not relevant to your claims that the gospels contradict themselves on a textual basis. Because you weren't showing any actual contradictions in the text.

Worse though, is that you take your presumption about what could be true and then use that to commit the fallacy of "argument from silence" again. You are taking your presumption that supernatural/spiritual aspects of Jesus's account could not be true and then assume that because Mark did not mention certain things about the origin of Jesus that that means he must not have believed they happened either. That is a fallacious invalid method of reasoning with no factual basis.

Your conclusion that Mark is a more grounded and realistic portrayal of Jesus, on the basis of not including the miraculous and spiritual aspects of Jesus's origin, is also demonstrably false because Mark's gospel is full of accounts of supernatural miracles done by Jesus, the transfiguration of Jesus, Jesus resurrecting, and Jesus ascending to the right hand of God afterwards. Even if you wanted to ignore the disputed ending verses of Mark, Mark is full of the spiritual and supernatural aspects of Jesus, thereby contradicting your theory that Mark doesn't contain those things because he's closer to the "historical Jesus", whom you presume to have been an otherwise normal human with no supernatural abilities or aspects.




If you merely want a bald textual contradiction, a simple and usual one is

Mark 6:8 He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff.

Matthew 10:9 Take [...] 10 no bag [...] nor a staff​

You have edited out the full context of Matthew 10, which makes it appear there is a contradiction where there actually is none. I don't know why you would edit it that way unless you were intentionally trying to hide something.

Matthew 10, ESV:

Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts,
no bag for your journey,
or two tunics or sandals or a staff,
for the laborer deserves his food.
And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart.

Notice that, in context, there is another valid way to read this, one which actually makes more sense: He's saying don't take two tunics, two sandals, or two staffs. He's not necessarily saying take no staff or sandals. Telling them to go without sandals at all could be extremely difficult on their feet, so it makes more sense to read it as telling them not to take an extra pair of sandals as a backup.
In context, everything here is talking about taking things beyond what you would normally need for everyday normally walking around. He's telling them not to prepare as though they are going on a long journey where they would need extra supplies, a bag to carry it all, and money to provide for their needs. The implication is that they are to trust the Holy Spirit to provide for them along the way anything they need, where they will stay with "worthy" individuals who are willing to show them hospitality and provide for their needs along the way.


Mark said it first,

That's not proven. Not only is it not proven, but there's not even any actual evidence of it being true.

It's an conclusion people have taken up based on assumptions. Logically bad and unproven assumptions.

It's based purely on the assumption that the shortest gospel must be the oldest. Which is itself based on the unproven assumption that the gospel story was added to and inflated over time. Which is itself based on the unproven assumption that the gospels can't be true as written.

There's no actual documentary evidence that Mark was the first gospel.

In fact, all the documentary evidence we do have says otherwise. Every ancient historical source we have, and church tradition passed down, says Matthew was written first. And this makes sense considering it is clearly written with a Jewish audience in mind, as the first church was exclusively Jewish and based in Judea. History also tells us it was written in Hebrew and later translated to Greek.

Historical documentation also tells us Mark was written sometime between Matthew and John, in Rome, as the written record of Peter's verbal retelling of the gospel account (The historical sources also seem to suggest that Mark was the translator for Peter when he would preach publically). And there is linguistic evidence in the greek which points towards the possibility that the original version of Mark was written in latin and later translated to greek. As opposed to all the other NT books where we know the latin version was translated from the greek.

When the weight of all the historical documentation is unanimous on this point, you need to have compelling evidence to believe the truth would be otherwise.
Bad and unproven assumptions are not a substitute for actual evidence.

While I would not begrudge you from being skeptical of the historical record and seeking to verify it - you do still require evidence to build a case for something that contradicts the historical record if you want people to accept it as an established fact rather than just a pure speculative theory. And Mark being the first gospel is based on nothing but pure speculative theory. And bad speculation at that.

and is the synoptic template, so either the copying error or the difference of opinion arose with Matthew.

You are basing your conclusion off an unproven assumption again.
You assume that the Gospels are not independent works but instead assume they represent a scribal modification of one gospel turning into a new one.
But your assumptions have no basis. They are unproven and unfounded.
Where's the evidence that you are forced to conclude that Mark, Matthew, and John could not have been independently generated by three different sources? There is none.
We have no reason not to believe those gospels are not independent works.
The only gospel which we have reason to believe might have been drawn from earlier works is Luke's, where in his introduction he specifies that he researched and searched out the truth in order to record with certainty what was true (he doesn't specify what method he used, if it was interviewing the witnesses personally, or reviewing texts. Likely the former, but I won't begrudge you from assuming the later was also done).

So, your assumption that one had to follow the other in sequence as a modification, cannot be regarded as a fact, and therefore the conclusion you draw from that assumption is logically invalid (You cannot conclude that the differences in the Gospels are the result of "copying" errors, because you have no reason to even believe the Gospel of Matthew was the result of copying the gospel of Mark and changing it. On top of that, you don't even have evidence to believe Mark came before Matthew).
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Calling it "gnostic" is inherently wrong when you are pulling the information out of the Bible. Gnostic is defined by what makes it different from the Bible, not what makes it similar to the Bible.
No, 'gnostic' is defined by what we know about the gnostic varieties of Christianity in the early centuries. As you know, the present orthodoxy won that debate and set out systematically destroying the books of the gnostics, just as they set about destroying the Greek and Latin works of pagan thought from the time of Justinian on, except for adopting bits of Aristotle and Plato.

Or put it this way ─ where do you say Paul and the author of John got the idea that Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God and, contrary to Genesis, made the material world?
You ignored the points I made which refute your assumptions.
My view of the bible comes from reading it as I'd read any other set of ancient documents - in each case, what, where, when, who, why?

And I therefore think your claim that the bible is consistent, and portrays a single Jesus, is baldly contradicted by the texts themselves.
I must point out up front that many of your issues with the NT are based not on actual contradictions between two different letters,
So do you take a staff, or not take a staff?

Was Jesus descended from David or not?

Was Jesus just an ordinary Jew until his baptism and adoption? OR
did he become the (literal) son of God when God impregnated Mary and gave Jesus his own Y-chromosome? OR
did he pre-exist in heaven, and did he make the universe, contrary to Genesis,?

a single faulty assumption [...] that just because an author didn't write about it that they didn't think it happened, or that they didn't believe it.
You really think that if Jesus had been born of a virgin Paul and the authors of Mark and John would not have thought that should be mentioned?

I assume you know that there was no 'all the world should be taxed' but rather this was the author of Matthew's invention to get Jesus born in Bethlehem to fulfill what he took to be a messianic prophecy in the Tanakh, and that there was no historical 'massacre of the innocents' and that this too was a plot device to get Jesus to Egypt so he could 'fulfill prophecy' and 'come out of Egypt'? And so on?

Do you really think Jesus' birth was foretold in the stars and that scholars from Persia made the trip to attend the birth? Or is that invented too?

Do you really think Jesus rode into Jerusalem astride both a foal and a donkey? Or is that just more 'fulfillment of prophecy' invention?
But you cannot assume that is why. It would be wrong to even assume they didn't know about the information they left out, unless you have some reason to suspect they didn't.
As I said above, the NT is easily shown to contain numerous fictions, both those copied from Mark and those added (or subtracted, or modified) by the other gospel authors. Indeed, Mark can be mapped onto passages in the Tanakh with such consistency that it gives rise to the observation that a book written by moving its principal through a series of purported 'fulfillment-of-prophecy' tales doesn't require an historical Jesus at all. (My own view is that so far there's no clincher either for or against an historical Jesus.) Mary is a virgin in Matthew and Luke solely because they're reading the Septuagint and not the Tanakh and taking Isaiah 7:14 as a 'prophecy' (which plainly it isn't anyway).

It's also not a secret that Matthew and Luke quite directly, and John more remotely, are written using Mark as their template and also something like Q and also perhaps lists of sayings attributed to Jesus as in eg the Gospel of Thomas. Those authors add to and subtract from and vary Mark as seems best to them. No NT author ever met an historical Jesus nor even claims to have done so. The gospel authors were writing decades after the purported death of Jesus ─ taking 30 CE as the usual date, Paul is over 20 years after, Mark (the earliest attempt at a biography) say 45 years after, Matthew and Luke say 55 years after, and John say 65-70 years after.

So I see no basis for the idea that the authors can be assumed to know things they don't say. The only way we know what any NT author knows is from what that NT author wrote.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
Or put it this way ─ where do you say Paul and the author of John got the idea that Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God

Your question is based on a faulty assumption: You assume they had to get the idea from somewhere other than God.

John and Paul tell us they got it by the words of Jesus and revelation from God. So if you want to call them liars you're going to need some reasons and evidence backing you up if you expect people to accept your claim as truth.

You'd have to first prove your assumption is true before the question is valid.

and, contrary to Genesis, made the material world?

Nothing John or Paul wrote contradicts Genesis. You've given no support for your assertion, so we have no reason to answer your question with the assumption that your assertion is true.

You'd first need to demonstrate your assertion is true before your question becomes valid.

You're welcome to try showing verses which you think demonstrate a contradiction and then we'll see if your reading of those verses holds up to closer scrutiny. Your last attempt to showing a textual contradiction between Mark 6 and Matthew 10 didn't hold up to closer scrutiny - and you have offered no attempt at rebuttal in defense of your now disproven claims.
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
My view of the bible comes from reading it as I'd read any other set of ancient documents - in each case, what, where, when, who, why?

And I therefore think your claim that the bible is consistent, and portrays a single Jesus, is baldly contradicted by the texts themselves.

You are committing the Logical fallacy of "argument by assertion":
Merely because you assert the Bible is not consistent doesn't make it true. You haven't provided any proof of your claim that I was not able to refute with facts and logical argumentation. And you have ignored the arguments I made which refuted your original claims, not even attempting to respond to them with counter arguments.

You are also committing the logical fallacy of "argumentum ad nauseam":
Repeating your assertions over and over doesn't make them true. You need to provide proof for your claims, not merely keep repeating them and think that is a substitute for proof.



So do you take a staff, or not take a staff?

Was Jesus descended from David or not?

Was Jesus just an ordinary Jew until his baptism and adoption? OR
did he become the (literal) son of God when God impregnated Mary and gave Jesus his own Y-chromosome? OR
did he pre-exist in heaven, and did he make the universe, contrary to Genesis,?

You really think that if Jesus had been born of a virgin Paul and the authors of Mark and John would not have thought that should be mentioned?

You again commit the logical fallacies of argument by assertion and argumentum ad nauseam.

You already asserted those claims, and I provided arguments and facts which countered or disproved them.

You have not even attempted to deal with the arguments and facts I presented which undermine your claims.

Instead, you merely repeat your original assertions, without any additional attempt at proving them, as though repeating them allows you to ignore the fact that they were already disproven and you have no response to that.


I will quote all the things I posted which already dealt with your assertions, and you're welcome to try formulating a counter argument to these points:


I must point out up front that many of your issues with the NT are based not on actual contradictions between two different letters, but your issues are based on a single faulty assumption - The assumption that just because an author didn't write about it that they didn't think it happened, or that they didn't believe it. But you cannot assume that is why. It would be wrong to even assume they didn't know about the information they left out, unless you have some reason to suspect they didn't. Especially when there are other explanations that make more sense and fit the evidence better.

For example:
Mark doesn't talk about the more spiritual side of the origin of Jesus OR the earthly virgin birth and Davidic line Matthew talks about - but that doesn't necessarily mean Mark didn't know about or believe in either of those things. You would be wrong to think that Mark just believed Jesus popped up out of no where one day, fully formed, simply because he omitted giving more information on that topic of where Jesus came from. Such a conclusion is not only bad logic, but there are clearly better explanations for why there is a difference in content between the gospels.

The different accounts can easily be harmonized together with all of it being true.
That comes from understanding the context in which these various gospels were written, to whom, and why they were written.
For instance, a difference in audience that reflects a different focus about what was most important to relate to the particular audience of their letter. Or at different points in history there were different theological issues that had to be addressed. There are also variations in which content is included based on the different eyewitness perspectives of the writers involved.

John's is written near the end of his death, after a lot has happened in the church since it's founding and many false teachers have arisen. As such, and with it's Greek audience in mind, an audience that might even be majority gentile church by this point, and even the Jews in the church might be native greek Jews who had more of a greek mindset rather than a hebraic mindset - so you get a focus on different issues that have to be addressed.
It focuses on the spiritual side of Jesus to put to rest the heretical ideas that Jesus might have just a man, or maybe was just a demi-god, or wasn't fully God, or wasn't fully man and was just a spirit. You also see John directly deal with with addressing the idea that John the baptist was the real messiah, which was another strain of false teaching we saw historically pop up early on, by recounting John's own denial of that idea.
There's likely simply no need to talk about the earthly geneaology of Jesus at this time because presumably it simply wasn't an issue of contention by this point by the later Greek church. It was the Judean hebrews who were always most concerned with these issues, which is why Matthew and Hebrews both have a greater focus on these aspects.
It was probably an issue of contention back when Matthew was written, during the early days of the Jerusalem based church, but ceased to be a concern by the time of John's writing, or at least wasn't an issue amount gentile converts or Greek Jews. Especially since that was already established in Matthew's gospel, which very likely was available to them by that time in a Greek translation. That could be another reason John doesn't see the need to retread a lot of the ground Matthew has already covered thoroughly.

Mark is the dictation of Peter's public telling of the Gospel to a Roman audience, presumably to a largely gentile audience. Speaking language is always more simple and abridged for most people, and has more time constraints about the amount you can convey in a single setting, which could also likely why it's the shortest gospel. A speaking format would explain more abridged content focusing on the high points necessary for his audience to come to faith. And Rome as a context makes things like Davidic genealogies, Messianic kingship, and even the fulfillment of certain old testament prophecies, not that relevant to dive into in the context of public preaching because it wouldn't be very meaningful to what is probably a mostly gentile audience or dispersed Jews more disconnected from Judean culture and teaching.

A perfect example of this truth of different audiences is the fact that Matthew is said to be the first Gospel written because it was written to the Jewish converts, before the Gospel went out to the gentiles. This is why in Matthew you find much more focus on the idea of Jesus as Messiah and King, with more focus on referencing Old Testament prophecy, imagery, and Hebraic concepts.

Luke is written as a comprehensive historical and overview, paired with Acts, with a stated aim to increase the reader's confidence in what they have heard by confirming various accounts and information.

....

You are commiting a fallacy of "argument from silence". It's a fallacy that makes unwarranted assumptions about what happened simply by the lack of mention of something.
But that is a logically invalid form of argument.

Here's an example of why it's a fallacious invalid form of argument: What if I tried to claim you've never gone to the store for groceries just because I can't any evidence of you mentioning doing that in your forum posts. There's a lot of things you don't write down, but just because you didn't write it down doesn't mean it didn't happen. We don't know if you did or did not go to the store. It would be wrong for us to try to state affirmatively that you've never been to the store, and then start making assumptions about why you've never gone to the store, such as the pure speculation that maybe you were rich so you hired servants to do this for you, even though we have no other evidence to support that conclusion. It's all pure speculation based on a bad fallacious assumption.

Likewise, your claims about Mark are pure speculation based on an invalid assumption drawn from the logical fallacy of an "argument from silence".

.....

You are assuming that Peter/Mark didn't think Jesus had a Davidic lineage simply because he didn't mention it. Ignoring the fact that, given his audience, he had no real need to communicate that part of the Gospel to them at that time. People do that today all the time when they teach the gospel to new people in most parts of the world. It's not necessary to start from that point because they don't have an Old Testament foundation yet that would make that information meaningful to them. This only becomes a topic of preaching in modern times when you're talking with Jewish people.

...
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member

Just because something isn't mentioned in a Gospel doesn't give you logical grounds to assume they didn't know about or believe that information. There are other reasons why someone would not include everything in their gospel, based on the audience they are communicating to.

You won't find a single verse in Matthew or Luke that would outright contradict any information given by John or Paul about the pre-existent nature of Christ.

...

You haven't shown there to be any contradiction, because your conclusions are based solely on an "argument from silence" which is not a valid logical argument to make in support of a conclusion.

For instance; the absence of a a genealogy in Mark doesn't give you a logical basis to conclude that Mark did not believe Jesus had a Davidic lineage.
On top of that, there are other better explanations for why it wouldn't have been included, which I already gave you.

...

Matthew, Mark, and Luke don't say that Jesus was adopted as God's son by baptism. They record the voice from Heaven affirming he IS God's son. So there is no textual contradiction with John.

Although everyone else may have to become sons by adoption through baptism into Jesus, that doesn't require that Jesus had the same requirement - we know this by the fact that Jesus was sinless yet still underwent the baptism of John, which was for the remission of sins. John in Matthew 3 affirms that Jesus had no need to be baptized by John, yet Jesus insists it should be done and seems to imply there's more of a protocol or prophectic issue that needs to be followed for other reasons beyond the need for the remission of sins.
It is likely Jesus did this as a prophetic picture or example of what others are to do if they want to follow Him and become like Him, considering that much of what we see Jesus do appears to be done for the sake of demonstrating to us how we are to live by first demonstrating it Himself.

Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
-Matthew 16

...

There's a few problems with your interpretation of that verse.

1. You're talking about adoption, but Acts 13 and Psalm 2 refer to being "begotten". A begotten son is not an adopted son. So Jesus was not adopted. In fact, He is referred to as the "only begotten son of God" by both John and Paul (John 3 and Hebrews 1). That means He proceeded from the Father through the process of conception and birth. Adam can't be called a begotten son of God, even prior to the fall, because Adam was formed from dust with life breathed into him. Adam was not begotten by birth with God giving conception of that birth.

2. Acts 13:33 is not, in context, referring to the baptism of Jesus by John. You're assuming it is, but there's nothing in that passage that would lead you to conclude that. In fact, the context clearly suggests that is not what is being referenced. It is either referring to a time before the world's creation or more likely simply referring to the incarnation of His earthly birth (which does not have to necessarily preclude his pre-existence before an earthly incarnation).

Regardless, Acts 13/Psalm 2 can't be referring to what you claim because Jesus wasn't adopted at any point, he was begotten. And you can't beget someone without a birth. He didn't undergo a birth at the baptism of John, so that's another reason logically the context of Acts 13 cannot be referring to the baptism of Jesus in water by John.


***I would like to insert here, that some believe Acts 13 means the birthing happens at the resurrection of Jesus. Although, in context, it's also appears the resurrection is being referenced with regards to a difference verse about His Holy One not being allowed to see corruption, with the birth of Jesus being mentioned prior to that as part of the fulfillment of the promise.
However, no matter how you want to take it, that doesn't change the fundamental point I made about this verse absolutely not being a reference to the baptism of John. And adoption is never mentioned, but being begotten is.


..

Mark's account of the baptism of Jesus is the same as Matthew and Luke; a voice and sign from God affirms Jesus is His Son. So you don't have any reason to claim Mark is communicating something different.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
I assume you know that there was no 'all the world should be taxed' but rather this was the author of Matthew's invention to get Jesus born in Bethlehem to fulfill what he took to be a messianic prophecy in the Tanakh, and that there was no historical 'massacre of the innocents' and that this too was a plot device to get Jesus to Egypt so he could 'fulfill prophecy' and 'come out of Egypt'? And so on?

Do you really think Jesus' birth was foretold in the stars and that scholars from Persia made the trip to attend the birth? Or is that invented too?

Do you really think Jesus rode into Jerusalem astride both a foal and a donkey? Or is that just more 'fulfillment of prophecy' invention?

As I said above, the NT is easily shown to contain numerous fictions, ... Indeed, Mark can be mapped onto passages in the Tanakh with such consistency that it gives rise to the observation that a book written by moving its principal through a series of purported 'fulfillment-of-prophecy' tales doesn't require an historical Jesus at all. (My own view is that so far there's no clincher either for or against an historical Jesus.) Mary is a virgin in Matthew and Luke solely because they're reading the Septuagint and not the Tanakh and taking Isaiah 7:14 as a 'prophecy' (which plainly it isn't anyway).


Logical fallacy, "Red Herring".
You are ignoring the arguments I made which disproved your original claims about textual contradictions and try to distract from having to deal with that by trying to change the subject.

You haven't been able to demonstrate any textual contradictions between the texts, and now you're trying to change the subject to supposed historical contradictions with the texts.

We could certainly debate all of these new issues you are trying to bring up, as separate issues in their own right - but you would first need to deal with the arguments you have completely ignored which refuted your original claims, and stop trying to avoid doing that by changing the subject.

If you are not able to provide counter arguments to the points I made which refute your original claims then you need to admit you are unable to support your claims and stop continuing to assert your original claims as though they should be considered truth.

I reposted all those arguments further up, so you shouldn't have any trouble finding them in order to respond to them.



both those copied from Mark and those added (or subtracted, or modified) by the other gospel authors.

...

It's also not a secret that Matthew and Luke quite directly, and John more remotely, are written using Mark as their template and also something like Q and also perhaps lists of sayings attributed to Jesus as in eg the Gospel of Thomas. Those authors add to and subtract from and vary Mark as seems best to them.

Logical fallacies, "argument by assertion" and "argumentum ad nauseam".

I already shot down those claims of yours in a previous post (which has been reposted above already for you to deal with). What I already posted is still sufficient to refute your claims without need to add more to it yet - because you didn't even attempt to address the points I made.

Yet you continue to assert your claim is true without any evidence to counter my points. That makes you guilty of thinking you have proven the truth of your statement merely by asserting it is true, and that by repeating that assertion you seem to think that is a substitute for having an actual counter argument - it isn't. You need to be able to counter my points with logic or facts in order to continue talking as though your assertion hasn't already been refuted.

No NT author ever met an historical Jesus

Logical fallacy, argument by assertion. Just because you assert it doesn't make it true. You need to have logical reasons or proofs to demonstrate why your assertion should be regarded as truth.

nor even claims to have done so.


That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
1 John 1

Documentary history also records who the writers were, which then tells us they did meet Jesus. To dispute that you'd have to have reason to dispute them as being the authors - which you haven't done, and won't be able to, because all the documentary evidence supports the authorship as listed in the NT.

You can't speculate there is different authorship, without evidence, just because it's what you would like to be true and then call it truth. If you want to differ with the recorded documentary evidence then you need to have logical or factual reasons to do so.

The gospel authors were writing decades after the purported death of Jesus ─ taking 30 CE as the usual date, Paul is over 20 years after, Mark (the earliest attempt at a biography) say 45 years after, Matthew and Luke say 55 years after, and John say 65-70 years after.

You don't know when they were written, and neither do the people you got those dates from. There is no documentary evidence proving any of these dates. They are bald unproven speculation. Speculation based on a string of unproven assumptions.

For example, it's based on the assumption that Mark was first and served as a basis for the others to be copied from, which goes back to how I showed you the assumptions about the origin of Mark are themselves based on unsupported assumptions.

Part of it is also based on the assumption that the prophecies in the NT couldn't possibly be genuine prophecies, therefore they had to be written after the fall of Jerusalem.

It cannot be stated as a fact because it's just speculation. If it weren't speculation there'd be evidence for it. Speculation doesn't become regarded as true just because enough people believe it is.

That's why N.T. Wright said something to the effect of, "We need to wake up every day, look ourselves in the mirror, and repeat to ourselves 'We don't actually know when the Gospels were written. We don't actually know when the Gospels were written'." - He said this because there's a whole house of cards built upon the the idea that these commonly attributed dates are true, forgetting the fact that no evidence for those dates has ever been produced. They remain only someone's speculative guess based on a lot of faulty assumptions - yet they've floated around for so long that people forget that and just start treating these dates with the assumption that they must have already proven true by someone, somewhere, at sometime in the past, using some unknown evidence.

So I see no basis for the idea that the authors can be assumed to know things they don't say.

As I pointed out already, you have no evidenciary basis for disputing the historical record's account of who wrote these.

It might be your opinion that they didn't write them, but your opinion doesn't establish something to be a factual truth just because you believe it.

You need evidence to establish your assumption is true before you can use it as the basis for proving other claims that depend on that assumption being true.

The only way we know what any NT author knows is from what that NT author wrote.

You've committed the logical fallacy of "non-sequitor" . Your conclusions don't logically follow from the premise of your argument.

Claiming that you don't trust the authors are who history says they were does not validate your use of the logical fallacy "argument from silence".

In any discipline of history you cannot assume just because no written record survives of something happening that that means it never happened.

That's a fallacy of logic regardless of who you think wrote the Gospels.
Which makes your conclusion invalid reasoning because it's based on fallacious logic.

There are way too many assumptions underlying your claim that have to be proven before you could even begin to make that claim without it being the fallacious logic of "argument from silence."

For instance, you'd need to be able to establish with proof that your claims about the authorship of the Gospels and their supposed progression is actually true before you could then go and assume that something being missing in Mark must mean it wasn't part of the belief system at an earlier time. But you haven't given any proof for any of those conclusions. It's just speculation.

So the assumptions underlying your premise are not proven, therefore your argument using that premise is invalid, and your conclusions therefore remain unproven.
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
You really think that if Jesus had been born of a virgin Paul and the authors of Mark and John would not have thought that should be mentioned?

This was the only part of your response that even came close to making a counter argument, as opposed to merely repeating your original assertions without proof or counter arguments.

And then, only half of that sentence qualifies. Because I already gave you reasons why John wouldn't need to mention it, which you will find reposted above in my quoted posts.

The arguments I made about contextual relevancy in John also apply to Paul's letters. Paul never wrote a Gospel, telling the life of Christ from beginning to end - which is where that information makes the most sense to include it.
He was also writing to believers who probably already knew this information, so there was no need to recount it for his intended audience. Paul's letters are always written to an existing church with a particular purpose in mind, addressing particular issues specific to that church - which is why every letter has different content. It's perfectly feasible to conclude that the nature of the earthly birth of Jesus was likely not a doctrinal point of contention for these churches that Paul was writing to - so there was no need to address it.

Now, there are some verses in Paul's letters which could be taken to allude to the virgin birth, but I don't see the need to even delve into that when context (ie. purpose and audience considerations) alone provides a sufficient answer for us.


Asking why Mark doesn't think it should be mentioned is a valid question. But what you're missing is the fact that you can't go from asking that question to then skipping a dozen logical steps to conclude the wildly unsupported assertion that Mark must not have believed or known about it. Especially when there are other explanations available.


It's already obvious why Peter wouldn't include the Davidic lineage, given the context of his audience and the use of a spoken verbal format (as I already explained in previous posts, which you did not attempt to counter).

As for the virgin birth; It is talked about in Matthew and Acts in the context of being part of the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. But you don't see Mark talk explicitly about Old Testament prophecy being fulfilled (if I recall correctly) because it's likely not relevant to his presumably mostly Roman gentile audience. You see prophecy talked about most in Matthew because it is written to the Jews.
Likewise, you see Paul leans more heavily on referencing OT prophecies, and OT scriptural interpretation, when writing to Jewish audiences.
Luke, attempting to be a thorough historical documentation, also would have reason to talk about OT prophecy even if the intended audience weren't entirely Jewish (Although his audience very well could have been Jewish. I'd guess likely the Jews living outside of Judea who had need of an accurate account of events, as likely recalled to Luke by first hand sources still living in Jerusalem. I'd say the content is definitely suggestive of a mixed gentile and Jewish audience, but not necessarily the hyper religious and traditional Jews found in Jerusalem that Matthew appears to have been written to).

It has also been suggested that the gospels all are written in a way that highlights a specific aspect of Jesus more than the others, by design of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the benefit of giving us a more complete picture of who Jesus is. It is very clear that Matthew focuses on establishing the Jesus as the King of the Jews, son of David. It is very clear that John focuses on establishing Jesus as son of God, and God Himself. It is also fairly establishable that the content of Luke focuses more on the humanity side of Jesus, being part of mankind, tracing His lineage back to Adam instead of stopping at David as Matthew did. If Mark doesn't serve either of those three purposes, then there wouldn't necessarily be need to talk about any other aspect of Jesus's birth.

Also, consider, Matthew was already written before Mark, so perhaps that could have also been a contributing factor to why it was not seen as necessary to rehash what was already sufficiently recorded there.
Which is the same reason we don't need to have it retold in John.
Afterall, if the Holy Spirit is guiding this, and they are all aware of what has been written before them, this line of logic makes sense. You only assume there would be a need to retell the story four times if you assume these were all written isolated from each other or alternatively try to assume they were attempts at copying and adding to each other (but we have no historical reason to believe either of those two assumptions would be true).
The only reason we see it retold in Luke appears to be so that we can get a different perspective of it; from the perspective of Mary, from the perspective of Jesus as the son of Adam, and to get the Davidic lineage of Jesus through Mary. So in that case we're getting new information, not simply a retelling of what was already available for people in the Gospel of Matthew. It is also likely that the people Luke was compiling this information for already had access to the Gospel of Matthew.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your question is based on a faulty assumption: You assume they had to get the idea from somewhere other than God.
Well, living in heaven with God, and making the universe are qualities of the gnostic demiurge. And they're qualities of the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of the author of John.

So I ask where Paul and the author of John got these gnostic notions from. And why the authors of Mark, Matthew and Luke didn't know about them.

And if the answer is, God, why did God tell one author one thing and another author a different thing?

And why didn't he tell authors in Rome and Byzantium and China and India and Persia and Egypt and Africa and northern Europe and Russia and the then-undiscovered Americas, and so on round the world at the same time? You get the greatest impact and the quickest and best result when you release your news or your movie or your invention in as many places at once as you can, surely?
John and Paul tell us they got it by the words of Jesus and revelation from God.
I know Paul does. Please remind me where the author of John makes that claim ─ I thought he said at the end of Chapter 21 he was told it by other humans.
So if you want to call them liars you're going to need some reasons and evidence
It's quite possible that the gospel authors were influenced by the midrash tradition, and if they were they may not have regarded such fictions as they wrote as lies, but rather as legitimate fantasizings on the possibilities of scriptural texts.
Nothing John or Paul wrote contradicts Genesis. You've given no support for your assertion, so we have no reason to answer your question with the assumption that your assertion is true.
Ah, you must have missed it before when I gave you some sample references. No harm done ─ here they are again, and this time I'll set the texts out with them:

That Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God

Philippians 2:5 [...] Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."​

That Jesus created the material world:

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

John 1:2) He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

Those claims have no parellel in Mark, Matthew or Luke.
You're welcome to try showing verses which you think demonstrate a contradiction
Then I'll ask you for the third time ─ take a staff or not take a staff?

And then we can get back to the serious contradictions between the five Jesuses.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Now, there are some verses in Paul's letters which could be taken to allude to the virgin birth, but I don't see the need to even delve into that when context (ie. purpose and audience considerations) alone provides a sufficient answer for us.
I say again:
1. Isaiah 7:14 says: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel
2. As you'll know if you've read Isaiah 7, this is not a prophecy of Jesus. (There are no prophecies of Jesus in the Tanakh ─ Jesus doesn't fit the job description of a Jewish messiah, being neither a war leader, civil leader or high priest, and never having been anointed by the priesthood.)
3. The word in Isaiah 7:14 for 'young woman' is `almah.
4. This is translated into Greek in the Septuagint by the word 'parthenos' which unlike `almah specifies a virgin.
5. Taking this for a messianic prophecy the author of Matthew and the author of Luke after him, made up a tale in which Mary is a virgin (implicitly in Matthew, explicitly in Luke). To this are the further tales to get Jesus born in Bethlehem and to get him to 'come out of Egypt.
6. You can tell they're fictions for that reason, and for the further reason that in history there was no taxation census as claimed (and if there had been, it wouldn't have required anyone to return to their town of birth); and there no 'massacre of the innocents' or anything resembling it.

That's why Mary is a virgin. Had the authors of Matthew and of Luke been able to read biblical Hebrew, she wouldn't have been.
It's already obvious why Peter wouldn't include the Davidic lineage
Ahm, Peter? What's he got to do with anything here?
You only assume there would be a need to retell the story four times if you assume these were all written isolated from each other or alternatively try to assume they were attempts at copying and adding to each other (but we have no historical reason to believe either of those two assumptions would be true).
That's simply not what the NT or the scholarship of the NT say. We have the letters of Paul first, between 51 and at latest 58 CE. The first gospel is Mark (not Matthew) and is written in 75 CE or shortly after (one clue being that it draws on Josephus, whose text wasn't available till then). Matthew and Luke write in the mid-80s CE. They take Mark as their template and re-write it to their respective tastes. They add material in common (attributed to a lost document known as Q, which seems to fit, though the idea has its opponents) and other material not in common, eg sayings in the manner of the Gospel of Thomas. Finally is John, roughly 95-100 CE, also based on the biography of Mark, but much more loosely.

>Here's<
a place to start, Check it out.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
Then I'll ask you for the third time ─ take a staff or not take a staff?

I already refuted your claim and you ignored it.
That's why I called you out on committing the logical fallacy of argument by assertion and argument by repetition. You're merely just repeating your unproven claim, ignoring what I posted which refuted it.

So here is a repost of my previous response to your question:


You have edited out the full context of Matthew 10, which makes it appear there is a contradiction where there actually is none. I don't know why you would edit it that way unless you were intentionally trying to hide something.

Matthew 10, ESV:

Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts,
no bag for your journey,
or two tunics or sandals or a staff,
for the laborer deserves his food.
And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart.

Notice that, in context, there is another valid way to read this, one which actually makes more sense: He's saying don't take two tunics, two sandals, or two staffs. He's not necessarily saying take no staff or sandals. Telling them to go without sandals at all could be extremely difficult on their feet, so it makes more sense to read it as telling them not to take an extra pair of sandals as a backup.
In context, everything here is talking about taking things beyond what you would normally need for everyday normally walking around. He's telling them not to prepare as though they are going on a long journey where they would need extra supplies, a bag to carry it all, and money to provide for their needs. The implication is that they are to trust the Holy Spirit to provide for them along the way anything they need, where they will stay with "worthy" individuals who are willing to show them hospitality and provide for their needs along the way.




So, no, you haven't demonstrated a textual contradiction between NT books.

 

Rise

Well-Known Member
Ahm, Peter? What's he got to do with anything here?

As I already said: Mark is said, according to all documentary historical sources, to be the written recording of Peter's public preaching in Rome. The record seems to suggest that Mark was actually Peter's translator.

So when we talk about what wasn't included in the Gospel and why it's important to understand the context of where this was written, to whom, and who is actually giving the account recorded.

You won't find a single documentary source that gives an alternative view of what the source of Mark is. They are all in unison on this issue.

There's also manuscript and linguistic evidence that Mark could have been written originally in Latin, which fits precisely with what church history has recorded about it's origin being in Rome.

So, if you want to propose an alternative origin for Mark, you're going to need some actual evidence to do so - because the historical record is well attested to on this point.
 
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