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How Paul wrote the old testament.

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Adding to post #120

It is interesting as well that he read that God brought about the 10 plagues on Egypt in the time of the Exodus. In that account only the 10th was spoken of as 'an angel passing over' those homes marked by the symbol of their faith and obedience. However Ps 78:49 adds the detail that 'companies of angels' were working behind the scenes in the actual application of all the plagues.

Just cause a detail is missing in the original account does not make the added information untrue.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Adding to post #120

It is interesting as well that he read that God brought about the 10 plagues on Egypt in the time of the Exodus. In that account only the 10th was spoken of as 'an angel passing over' those homes marked by the symbol of their faith and obedience. However Ps 78:49 adds the detail that 'companies of angels' were working behind the scenes in the actual application of all the plagues.

Just cause a detail is missing in the original account does not make the added information untrue.
The problem here is that this is one unique time were YHVH says He communicated with Moses "face to face". Not via angels. He even makes it clear that Moses was different from all other prophets of the day for this very reason:

6He said,
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream. (angelic communication)

7Not so, with My servant Moses,
He is faithful in all My household;

8With him I speak mouth to mouth,
Even openly, and not in dark sayings,
And he beholds the form of the LORD.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant, against Moses?” Num 12: 6-8

Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face Deut 34: 10

Besides, Paul was obviously trying to say that these angels were not acting under YHVH's authority. This is why he reprimands the Galatians for still obeying this law:

8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! Gal 1: 8-9

19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Gal 3: 19

Stay with me on this. There is more. Paul tells us that the law is not to be followed anymore:

23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor (law). Gal 3: 23-25

8However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.

He is referring to those still keeping the law of Moses…claiming that they are slaves of those "who by nature are no gods". Referring back to the angels who Paul claims gave the law!

9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

These weak and worthless elemental things are a clear reference to the angels again. Most scholars admit this!

10You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain. Gal 4: 8-11

Obviously Paul is angry at those who are keeping the Hebrew feasts and seasons. This is all about Paul's horrible notion of the law being bondage which "enslaved" people under the authority of angels!
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
6He said,
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream. (angelic communication)


There is an assumption, or I am misreading that angelic communication is only "in a dream." By face-to-face being contrasted with visions and dreams it is understood that there were no metaphoric speech or imagery. It was all plain speech, as if to a close companion privy to understanding w/o symbolism.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
There is an assumption, or I am misreading that angelic communication is only "in a dream." By face-to-face being contrasted with visions and dreams it is understood that there were no metaphoric speech or imagery. It was all plain speech, as if to a close companion privy to understanding w/o symbolism.
Ok…i see your point. I'm not sure I agree but I can't argue your logic on this particular issue. I believe that YHVH's communication was different with Moses than with others. I also believe this to be the basis for understanding the commandments at mount Sinai.

Either way, as my previous post shows, Paul believed that the angels who gave the Torah were somehow outside of YHVH's authority. He calls the law "they" gave as slavery and rebukes the Galatians for submitting to them. Its clear to me that Paul's references to the angels was not in a positive sense. Nor was he trying to say that YHVH gave the law through these angels.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Is there anyone who can challenge my assertion in the OP regarding Paul's dishonest use of the scriptures?

What you may not know.

Is that there were many different credible ways the different cultures used the previous text.

Pauls Judaism has always been debated, yet is in line with Hellenistic Judaism during that period.


I think Paul knew Judaism and the OT text, and you, are no where near his level of understanding. I question your opinion before I would question Pauls.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
God brought about the 10 plagues on Egypt in the time of the Exodus.

Im sorry but that is not a credible event one can make historical statements about. There was no "time" here.


It is stated as factual by Finkelstein that Israelites formed from displaced Canaanites and that there was never an Exodus as written. This finding is now common knowledge and not in dispute by anyone with credibility.

Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as Philip Davies and Niels Peter Lemche regard the Exodus as a fiction composed in the Persian period or even later to give hope of return to Canaan for a Diaspora community

Finkelstein states in the same book that at the time proposed by most scientists for the Exodus, Egypt was at the peak of its glory, with a series of fortresses guarding the borders and checkpoints watching the roads to Canaan. That means an exodus of the scale of over 600,000 soldiers described in the Torah would have been impossible


While the general narrative of the Exodus and the conquest of the Promised Land may be remotely rooted in historical events, the figure of Moses as a leader of the Israelites in these events cannot be substantiated

William Dever agrees with the Canaanite origin of the Israelites
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
What you may not know.

Is that there were many different credible ways the different cultures used the previous text.

Pauls Judaism has always been debated, yet is in line with Hellenistic Judaism during that period.


I think Paul knew Judaism and the OT text, and you, are no where near his level of understanding. I question your opinion before I would question Pauls.
Ok. So are you suggesting that my OP is made up? Please feel free to do your own search on the matter. Paul's quote is a string of verses that were pasted together. The LXX includes this misquote in the OT.

Here is a side by side comparison of the Hebrew and Greek of Psalm 14:

Psalm 14
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Ok. So are you suggesting that my OP is made up?

I don't think you have the knowledge to fully grasp what is going on here.

maybe you don't understand the previous scripture was the foundation of ALL of the NT, and it will be different because it is a different religion that evolved away from Judaism.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
This is Paul's apparent direct quote from Scripture that is supposed to prove to us that no one is righteous, but all are full of evil. Now guess what? No such passage exists! What Paul quotes is a compilation of no less than six separate passages that have been jerked out of their original context from the Psalms and the book of Isaiah, given an interpretation that cannot be found there, and strung together to appear as one quote.

Because it could be Paul who was well trained in these text wrote in similar prose. :rolleyes:

Your doing nothing less then quote mining, and not understanding Pauls message was not intended to be identical.
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
Yes, SaintPaul
Was a Jew
It is not the original disciples of Jesus
And the quote from the Bible is no stranger
And also all the disciples of Jesus from the Jews
Christianity was born of Jewish
Thesefacts
And Christians believe in the Torah also
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Yes, SaintPaul
Was a Jew
It is not the original disciples of Jesus
And the quote from the Bible is no stranger
And also all the disciples of Jesus from the Jews
Christianity was born of Jewish
Thesefacts
And Christians believe in the Torah also
Christians believe in the Torah????
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
Christians believe in the Torah????
Yes,Christians believein the Torah
I am a Christianreadthe Torah
And enjoy some of her travels
And from Psalms Daoud (
Aslongsthe deerto water sourcessolongmyselfto youo God)
ThesewordsDaoud
Is therethe most beautifulones
There are proverbs
And other great travel
Therefore, I believe in the Torah
And Jesus said
Icomeevenfulfilled the law
This is theoriginalChristian
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Are there not apostate angels? Where did the demons come from? Are there not yet people that claim to see spirits?

And even if that is dismissed, because no faithful angel would do such a thing, who is to say he wasn't using a hyperbole?

Dear Koli,
Paul not only dismissed angels from heaven, but Peter, James and John. Galatians 2:6, "those of reputation contributed nothing to me". Paul should run for the presidency, or at least mayor of New York. A little backing from Satan takes one a long way.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Galatians 2:6 might be a case of needing a linguist added to the translator.
In English, "contributed nothing to me" does sound harsh.


6 Moreover, [no new requirements were made] by those who were reputed to be something—though what was their individual position and whether they really were of importance or not makes no difference to me; God is not impressed with the positions that men hold and He is not partial and recognizes no external distinctions—those [I say] who were of repute imposed no new requirements upon me [had nothing to add to my Gospel, and from them I received no new suggestions]. - Amplified Bible

6 The influential leaders didn’t add anything to what I was preaching—and whatever they were makes no difference to me, because God doesn’t show favoritism. - Common English Bible

6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. - English Standard Version

6 But by them which seemed to be great, I was not taught (whatsoever they were in time passed, I am nothing the better: God accepteth no man’s person) for they that are the chief, did add nothing to me above that I had. - 1599 Geneva Bible

But regarding those who seemed to be important - whatever they were makes no difference to me, for God does not go by a man's outward appearance - those highly regarded men imparted nothing new to me. - New World Translation (2013 Revision)

These and many other translations supply the common English reader a much different flavor.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Galatians 2:6 might be a case of needing a linguist added to the translator.
In English, "contributed nothing to me" does sound harsh.


6 Moreover, [no new requirements were made] by those who were reputed to be something—though what was their individual position and whether they really were of importance or not makes no difference to me; God is not impressed with the positions that men hold and He is not partial and recognizes no external distinctions—those [I say] who were of repute imposed no new requirements upon me [had nothing to add to my Gospel, and from them I received no new suggestions]. - Amplified Bible

6 The influential leaders didn’t add anything to what I was preaching—and whatever they were makes no difference to me, because God doesn’t show favoritism. - Common English Bible

6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. - English Standard Version

6 But by them which seemed to be great, I was not taught (whatsoever they were in time passed, I am nothing the better: God accepteth no man’s person) for they that are the chief, did add nothing to me above that I had. - 1599 Geneva Bible

But regarding those who seemed to be important - whatever they were makes no difference to me, for God does not go by a man's outward appearance - those highly regarded men imparted nothing new to me. - New World Translation (2013 Revision)

These and many other translations supply the common English reader a much different flavor.
Is not Paul making the same point in all of these translations?
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Yes but it feels differently depending on if you have judged Paul or not. And some translations can be read with a snide "voice" easier than others.
Understood. Either way Paul is referencing the chosen apostles and downplaying their authority. There is also an obvious tension and defensiveness in Paul's tone.
 
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