How should we deal with intolerance?

[icehorse]

Hi there OurCreed,

A couple of issues I have with your post:

On the one hand you say the book is "written for all time periods", but later you say the verses were "aimed at specific people during the time of the Prophet". Then you say I didn't mention "historical significance".

This is like playing tennis without the net.

Second you say that the Quran teaches tolerance. I disagree. The book occasionally suggests tolerance, but those few suggestions are buried in an overwhelming avalanche of intolerance. To frame the Quran as "tolerant" is simply a misrepresentation.

Finally, when you defend the book in this way, you're flying in the face of well established cognitive science. The book is a very effective indoctrination tool, and most of its indoctrination themes are those of intolerance.

(btw, that's 100,001)

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

LMAO. That just made me laugh.

LOL iam sorry for icehorse, she/he is not doing the right way. Otherwise we would see icehorse on the stage, not pamela geller

 

[raph]

icehorse, you are probably using the most intollerant Quran translation there is. I agree that putting (Jews) after every verse that talks about people who Allah has cursed, is intollerant. But that is a problem with muslims and not with the Quran. The stuff in parentheses is taken from historical interpretation of the Quran. But if we use a historical interpretation, we must also regard the history. Maybe there was a specific group of jews that was bad, and God revealed verses about them. But when we use a historic interpretation, we must keep in mind, that historically, there were jews at Muhammads time, who fought the muslims for no reason. Otherwise, verses that tollerate other religions would be a contradiction, but a contradiction can't be the context of the Quran. Lets have a look on the first verse in your post (5:60)

Say: "O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?"
Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
When they come to thee, they say: "We believe": but in fact they enter with a mind against Faith, and they go out with the same but Allah knoweth fully all that they hide.
Many of them dost thou see, racing each other in sin and rancour, and their eating of things forbidden. Evil indeed are the things that they do.

We can see here, that this verse can't be talking about all jews... because most jews don't say "we are muslim" without belief, and most jews dont race each other in sin.

You know, there are schools that teach the Quran. It is not so simple, that someone who reads it can understand and judge it. You should read a more "word by word" translation, without historical interpretation, if you don't want to learn and accept early islamic history. The verse 5:60 is clearly talking about people who worship evil. You can only say, that this verse is intollerant against people, who worship evil. And that is a valid POV I think, we shouldn't tollerate evil. If jews don't worship evil, it is not about them period

 

[leibowde84]

Quite interesting really.
But its time people look into their own back yard.
Anyone has figures.
How many people were murdered in World War 1 & 2 in upholding the ideology of Secularism?
How many people were murdered in the wars in Vietnam,Afghanistan,Iraq to uphold the ideology of Secularism?
To sum it up all these murders were committed in the spirit of tolerance.

WWI and WWII were in no way faught to "uphold the ideology of Secularism"?! Not sure where you got that crazy idea from.

 

[icehorse]

Hey raph,

You said:

icehorse, you are probably using the most intollerant Quran translation there is.

That is quite possibly true. But I picked the translation I read because it's so darned popular. I'm interested in how this book is affecting the world today. The translation I read has been printed and distributed over 260 million times.

 

[Augustus]

How many people were murdered in the wars in Vietnam... to uphold the ideology of Secularism?

Apparently America were terrified of Ho Chi Minh installing a theocracy which was the ultimate goal of all good Comintern agents...

 

[Nakosis]

I can be tolerant with people's belief.
I feel no need to be tolerant because of people's actions.
I'm fine with suppressing actions when those actions are causing me or someone else unnecessary harm.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Ya maybe you right.
Hitler was Muslim and Islam start the Wars.
Secular State was very tolerant by Nuking.

There is a difference between the Christian and the Christian thought
Christian thought
1. Christian is a man believes in Christianity but this religion is not practiced in his life
2. While Christian thought is ideology
3. Christian ideology refuses to offensive war , but does not reject defensive war
For this reason, Hitler broke away from Christianity when offensive war declared
4. Hitler did not use the Bible to justify war
5. No three verses in the Bible about the war
6. For this reason Htlerkan fights away from Christianity
7. Use the nationalist thought even spark a fighting spirit in the nation Germanic

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

The Qur'an is a book written for all time periods. The job of the Qur'an was not only to guide mankind to what is right and true, but is also had to speak of the current time of the prophet Muhammad (saw) and his people.

You quoted these Qur'anic verses from an article showcasing the so called 'intolerance' found in the Qur'an, when you haven't quoted the positive verses from the Qur'an about Jews and Christians (the people of the book).

The specific verses you quoted were aimed at specific people during the time of the Prophet (saw). There were ruthless people who broke their treaties, killed innocent people, devised plots against innocent civilians, etc. These people were talked about in the Qur'an. Of course, when you take verses out of context without even mentioning their historical significance, you can make anything look bad.

The Qur'an is a book that teaches tolerance, freedom to have and practice religion, and your basic human rights for all people that everybody in the world is still demanding for in various countries.

When you speak of tolerance, tolerance in itself is a state of mind, and being watchful of your own behavior when you come into certain situations or circumstances, or when you are confronted with something you are not pleased with or opposed to. To be tolerant is to have a steady foot, no matter what comes your way, you will stand your ground, no matter which direction the river is flowing, you will not swim with it.

According to Islam, the most tolerant one is God Himself. He tolerates the actions of all individuals every day. God states that if He pleased, He could wipe away every sinner from the face of the planet the moment they sinned, but we don't see that. What we see is God's tolerance. The sinner will sin and keep on sinning, he or she will continue doing their acts enough into fooling us that God may have just about forgotten about them. Or the sinner will keep sinning without reprimanding that it will seem as if the sin was never a sin in the first place.

What we see is tolerance. You CHOOSE not to act when your body and mind forces you to act. The tolerance of God works differently compared to humans, but the act is the same. God has no urge to punish or act, but we humans definitely have an urge to speak out, act, or refute when confronted. Tolerance is choosing not do, or it is to keep a steady footing in any situation so you will not topple over. This virtue is a very difficult thing to achieve, and the Qur'an gives humans the advice to be humble and meek, for this should help you with tolerating others.

You want to say that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance
This talk is not true
Islam is a religion of terrorism , which does not know tolerance
And Islam calls for war
And verses of the Koran calls for fighting and war
Islam ideology intellectual satanic

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

The Qur'an is a book written for all time periods. The job of the Qur'an was not only to guide mankind to what is right and true, but is also had to speak of the current time of the prophet Muhammad (saw) and his people

Qur'an is a book in which the life of Muhammad and sexual anomalies
Qur'an is a book in which the teachings of all the fighting and terrorism
Book Koran speaks of free sex in paradise
Koran book violates logic and reason
Koran sexual School ( wives Vatohn I plow you if you like)

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Icehorse congratulation. This is your 100000th anti-islam topic.

We have no hostility to Islam
But the fact disclose Islam
This human right
Do you want to say that Islam is a religion of peace while verses of the Koran declares war ??
Do you want to say that Islam is a religion of tolerance ?
Where is the Islamic tolerance ??? in the displacement and killing of thousands of Iraqi Christians ???
Where is the Islamic tolerance ???
Islam is a religion of terrorism par excellence

 

[raph]

That is quite possibly true. But I picked the translation I read because it's so darned popular. I'm interested in how this book is affecting the world today. The translation I read has been printed and distributed over 260 million times.

The book is probably causing intollerance. I don't know, how it affects muslims to always read (Jews) after "people who Allah has cursed", but I guess that most of the muslims are ignorant of the real meaning, and think that all Jews are evil. But maybe I am ignorant of the general muslim knowledge. If most muslims teach that (Jews) means "there was a specific group of jews at that time, who were evil, but not all jews are evil", the muslim children could become tollerant as intended by Allah.

You want to say that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance
This talk is not true
Islam is a religion of terrorism , which does not know tolerance
And Islam calls for war
And verses of the Koran calls for fighting and war
Islam ideology intellectual satanic

This is not true and you are brainwashed. If islam was a religion of terrorism, than almost every muslim would be a terrorist. Most muslims are 100% sure, that martyrs go directly to heaven. Why are they not terrorist then? The simple answer is, that Islam is not terrorism. If islam was terrorism, than EVERY muslim, who has a 100% belief, and these are not few, would become terrorists.

You clearly are not seeing that your arguments also apply to christianity. Christianity has the same God as Judaism, right? This same God commanded genocide. The christians God commanded genocide. So why is it so bad, if the christian God commands muslims the defensive war?

Exodus 15:3
The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name.

1. Samuel 15:2-3
This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

 

[faroukfarouk]

You want to say that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance
This talk is not true
Islam is a religion of terrorism , which does not know tolerance
And Islam calls for war
And verses of the Koran calls for fighting and war
Islam ideology intellectual satanic

Woh....i am a terrorist.I am going to kill you all......
There is an old saying.
"Whats in your heart eventually comes to your tongue".
I am going for Friday prayers.
Thank you God for making me a...... terrorist.
I am done with you.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

We have no hostility to Islam
But the fact disclose Islam
This human right
Do you want to say that Islam is a religion of peace while verses of the Koran declares war ??
Do you want to say that Islam is a religion of tolerance ?
Where is the Islamic tolerance ??? in the displacement and killing of thousands of Iraqi Christians ???
Where is the Islamic tolerance ???
Islam is a religion of terrorism par excellence

If Islam teaches to kill kuffar, i know for sure there would be no christian or jew in egypt, iraq , turky and syria now.
There would be lots of kuffar holocausts in the very beginning of islam when levant , iraq and egypt were captured.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

One hundred years ago, the population of Turkey was about 80% Muslim. Today it's about 99% Muslim. Largely, this did not happen because people converted to Islam, instead it happened largely by force.

Here is a quote from an article linked to below:



The Difference Between Islam and Islamism?

I understand that the Gatestone Institute has a strong agenda. That said, facts are facts.

The idea that the Quran devotes 60% of it's teachings to the discussion of non-Muslims is quite telling. This hardly seems like a spiritual guide. The 60% number seems far more in keeping with an intolerant, supremacist ideology.

== How should peaceful people deal with totalitarian ideologies?

We can ask the question: Are most Muslims, Muslims by choice or through indoctrination and threats of punishment for apostasy? If it's the latter, then of course we have an enormous, world-wide human-rights violation to deal with.

If, on the other hand, most Muslims are Muslims by choice, then what are the implications? Should non-Muslims welcome Islamic intolerance? Should we assume that even though Muslims self-identify as people who hold the Quran to be perfect, they are peaceful and tolerant?

Free speech allows totalitarian ideologies reveal their logical inconsistencies and their dehumanization of the people whom it wishes to oppress.

It is through discourse - however lively or caustic - that helps to reveal the best way to deal with these harmful ideologies.

Ignorance is best dealt with through education. Willful ignorance is best dealt with through public discourse. Intolerance is best dealt with through bigger numbers of dissenting views. Intolerant views do not gain much traction when more people see its harm and choose to push it aside.

Slavery has gained enough dissenters through education and public discourse that it is now seen as a human rights abuse by a majority. We still have some ways to go with women's rights, with trafficking, with queer rights, and with remaining totalitarian religious ideologies that kill/imprison apostates or non-believers.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

This is not true and you are brainwashed. If islam was a religion of terrorism, than almost every muslim would be a terrorist. Most muslims are 100% sure, that martyrs go directly to heaven. Why are they not terrorist then? The simple answer is, that Islam is not terrorism. If islam was terrorism, than EVERY muslim, who has a 100% belief, and these are not few, would become terrorists.

You clearly are not seeing that your arguments also apply to christianity. Christianity has the same God as Judaism, right? This same God commanded genocide. The christians God commanded genocide. So why is it so bad, if the christian God commands muslims the defensive war?

This is not true and you are brainwashed. If islam was a religion of terrorism, than almost every muslim would be a terrorist. Most muslims are 100% sure, that martyrs go directly to heaven. Why are they not terrorist then? The simple answer is, that Islam is not terrorism. If islam was terrorism, than EVERY muslim, who has a 100% belief, and these are not few, would become terrorists.

You clearly are not seeing that your arguments also apply to christianity. Christianity has the same God as Judaism, right? This same God commanded genocide. The christians God commanded genocide. So why is it so bad, if the christian God commands muslims the defensive war?

Is there a word love in the words of the Koran ???
Koran is the education of global terrorism

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

If Islam teaches to kill kuffar, i know for sure there would be no christian or jew in egypt, iraq , turky and syria now.
There would be lots of kuffar holocausts in the very beginning of islam when levant , iraq and egypt were captured.

Yes that's right
Iraq's Christians have been expelled from the city of Mosul after control Daash
In other cities are suffering from the oppression of Muslims
I'm an Iraqi Christian fled Iraq after being threatened slaughter
And Christian in that Alaldan is second-class citizen
The reason is the teachings of the Koran
Because citizenship in Muslim countries
Be
Muslims and dhimmis ( people Damah )
Education and this is the reason why racial discrimination and religious
Islam here is one of the oldest racist regimes in the world
Because it distinguishes between people based on religion

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Yes that's right
Iraq's Christians have been expelled from the city of Mosul after control Daash
In other cities are suffering from the oppression of Muslims
I'm an Iraqi Christian fled Iraq after being threatened slaughter
And Christian in that Alaldan is second-class citizen
The reason is the teachings of the Koran
Because citizenship in Muslim countries
Be
Muslims and dhimmis ( people Damah )
Education and this is the reason why racial discrimination and religious
Islam here is one of the oldest racist regimes in the world
Because it distinguishes between people based on religion

Read again lol

I said if our religion teached to massacre kuffar, ur people the assyrian christians and copt christians would only be read in history books today. Who could stop you from us when Levant, Egypt, Iraq was captured after defeating the crusaders and the persian polytheists?

 

[raph]

Is there a word love in the words of the Koran ???

Those who believe and do good deeds — the Gracious God will create love in their hearts. (Al Quran 19:96)

 

[Pudding]

Maybe stay away from the intolerance if possible?