How Speciation Happens (yes it does)

[Jose Fly]

How's that working out? Is evolutionary theory evaporating away under the force of those arguments?

That's a good question. You'd think if Deeje et al's efforts at appealing to lurkers in internet forums were having an effect, we'd see signs of it. These types of places have been around for at least two decades; I know my first time arguing science in an internet forum was in 1999. That's plenty of time to see what sort of effect the "age of the internet" has had on public opinions about evolution. The following article gives us an idea....

Bad news for Ken Ham: Millennials’ views on evolution are evolving

While overall US opinion on evolution remains steady at ~60% in agreement, with millennials it's closer to 70%. Now, while this certainly doesn't prove any sort of cause-effect relationship, it does tell us that if Deeje and her creationist cohorts were hoping their efforts would have a positive effect for creationism, they'll be disappointed. The trend among the next generation is strongly in favor of science.

 

[Deeje]

If I may, can I reword these statements back to you....?.

How much better to acquire wisdom than gold. Now, go study some science. Go study hisotry the Biblical myths) and learn a bit about the universe and how people have been. That might be the beginning of wisdom for you

"How much better to acquire wisdom than gold. Now, go study some real science. Go study the history of the Bible and learn a bit about how the universe came to be, and how people have been misled by false religion. That might be the beginning of wisdom for you."

Wisdom has to do with the ability to apply knowledge. But the knowledge has to be accurate, not merely assumption based on what science "suggests" "might be" the way things took place when no one was around to record any of it, except of course the Creator. He is the only eye witness who had a record made of the events that took place all those eons ago. But to be fair to those with no scientific knowledge as yet, he kept it simple.

The understanding heart seeks knowledge. I like that one also. So, go learn some physics, some biology, some geology. Go learn how science actually works rather than drinking the koolaid of those feeding you garbage in place of truth."

"The understanding heart seeks knowledge. I like that one also. So, go learn some real physics, some real biology, some real geology that is not tainted by science's bias towards evolution. Go learn how science actually works rather than drinking the koolaid of those feeding you garbage in place of truth."

See how it works just as well in reverse? We think you are as deluded as you think we are.
You just probably have better marketing.

The Bible also says "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up." I like that one also. Science is mostly driven by greed or pride. Science and its leaders are put on a pedestal as if the science gods can't be wrong about anything.....and it doesn't matter because when they are wrong, they carry on as if no harm was done. Its not the details that damage the human soul....it is the very foundation upon which evolutionary science is structured. Eliminating the Creator, (whom we believe is the rightful Sovereign over his creation,) guides human thinking into imagining that they are nothing more than animals, excusing immoral behavior, predatory actions, abuse of power and no one to really answer to at the end of the day, except themselves.
Look where that has led us in this "age of reason". The world is falling apart at the seams in case you haven't noticed.

With no higher power to account to, some humans can make the status of their intellect into the stuff of deity. Their words and actions can be 'worshipped' by the adoring masses attending their temples of instruction, just as you see with religion. I see no real difference actually. You have your 'religion' (beliefs), your gods (noted scientists) and your holy writings (science text books written by those noted scientists).....its human nature, which never changes....its just channeled into something else.

For those with insufficient intellect to achieve academic success, there is always sport......the 'religion' of the uneducated masses. (though sometimes the educated are drawn to the competitive aspects of their game of choice.) They too have their idols and their temples which are attended weekly.

Like sport, academia is a very competitive world, driven by ego for the most part. That, I believe is the reason why there is so much emotion displayed by those who can't handle their sacred theory being challenged....and by non-academics at that! How dare they!

You don't see the situation the way we see it....or could ever imagine it that way. They have taught you well. We all choose who and what we worship.

 

[Deeje]

You're swimming peanut butter, and I could not remotely respond to this incoherent rant.

I'd rather have my peanut butter.........

....than the stuff you're swimming in.

At least I could sustain my life on it. What about you?

BTW, I didn't consider it a rant, nor was it incoherent IMO. Feel free to correct my errors.

You are not the only Baha'i here. I am basing what I said on the posts of your fellow believers.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

After reading all that, you know the most amazing thing of all, is that you believe such complex mechanisms just accidentally came together with no intelligent direction at all. To assume that no intelligence was necessary to put those mechanisms in place, reveals a lack of intelligent assessment IMO.

It looks to me as if there is a choice between parents going on here...."Mother Nature"....or "Our Father in heaven".

And an utter and complete ignorance of how natural processes works both allows you to say that, and to feel comfortable in your inevitable correctness.

But of course, ignorance remains ignorance. Darwin explained it, that "unintelligent" processes can guided by the simple feedback of "success" or "failure," can and have accomplished most of what we know in nature. I no longer expect you to bother investigating that claim -- it would involve study and learning, after all -- yet it is still true.

In a very odd way, it's exactly that kind of thinking that allowed Alan Turing's machine to decode the German "Enigma." His decoder didn't have to know anything -- it just had to be able to know whether to accept or reject a result, and move on.

 

[Deeje]

That's a good question. You'd think if Deeje et al's efforts at appealing to lurkers in internet forums were having an effect, we'd see signs of it. These types of places have been around for at least two decades; I know my first time arguing science in an internet forum was in 1999. That's plenty of time to see what sort of effect the "age of the internet" has had on public opinions about evolution.

You are not apparently aware of the motives for our posting on these forums. It's not to convert the masses....in fact its not to convert anyone. Its is just so that those who are indecisive might be exposed to some home truths....the inconvenient ones that scientists will never disclose.

Informed choice is the only one worth making, so it is up to the readers here to decide from the information presented....not just the put-downs, which is all scientists know how to do to combat these revelations. Attack is a pretty pathetic form of defense. It is ego driven, not knowledge driven. Science pretends to know a lot, but when it comes to evolution, they only have supposition and the power of suggestion.

While overall US opinion on evolution remains steady at ~60% in agreement, with millennials it's closer to 70%. Now, while this certainly doesn't prove any sort of cause-effect relationship, it does tell us that if Deeje and her creationist cohorts were hoping their efforts would have a positive effect for creationism, they'll be disappointed. The trend among the next generation is strongly in favor of science.

Public opinion holds no sway at all with the Creator. The Bible shows this on so many occasions. Faithful minorities triumphed whist the fully armed masses perished....none of them believing that their sitting duck enemies had even a remote chance of attaining the victory.

Since Jesus said that the majority of humans living when the judgment comes, will be judged adversely, your comment is actually a reinforcement that what the Bible says will come true. "Few" he said, are on the road to life.....the masses are headed for destruction, according to him, all confidently travelling the same highway. (Matthew 7:13-14) I guess time will tell....won't it?

 

[Deeje]

You are one of the best recruiting tools that the evolutionists have ... I do thank you for that.

Then I have done my job. Its all about our choices you see, so if I have helped someone one way or another...I have still played my part. It isn't just minds that respond to information...hearts do a better job....as long as we listen to them. Humans are usually born spiritual by nature if that spirituality is not starved to death, or shamed out of them.

 

[Polymath257]

If I may, can I reword these statements back to you....?.

Sure!

"How much better to acquire wisdom than gold. Now, go study some real science. Go study the history of the Bible and learn a bit about how the universe came to be, and how people have been misled by false religion. That might be the beginning of wisdom for you."

Wisdom has to do with the ability to apply knowledge. But the knowledge has to be accurate, not merely assumption based on what science "suggests" "might be" the way things took place when no one was around to record any of it, except of course the Creator. He is the only eye witness who had a record made of the events that took place all those eons ago. But to be fair to those with no scientific knowledge as yet, he kept it simple.

Well, you are assuming that I have not studied the Bible. I have. But I have also studied the cultures around the Biblical culture and I realize how its views fit into the overall views of their time.

That is why I reject the Bible: I have studied it and found it wrong in detail.

[QUOTE"The understanding heart seeks knowledge. I like that one also. So, go learn some real physics, some real biology, some real geology that is not tainted by science's bias towards evolution. Go learn how science actually works rather than drinking the koolaid of those feeding you garbage in place of truth." [/QUOTE]
And you have to look at the bias shown by those from a religious viewpoint.

See how it works just as well in reverse? We think you are as deluded as you think we are.
You just probably have better marketing.

Hardly. Religion has always had better marketing. That's exactly what churches do.

The Bible also says "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up." I like that one also. Science is mostly driven by greed or pride.

Bull. Scientists generally are interested in understanding. They do have pet theories, but science in general tests against those pet theories eventually.

Science and its leaders are put on a pedestal as if the science gods can't be wrong about anything.....and it doesn't matter because when they are wrong, they carry on as if no harm was done. Its not the details that damage the human soul....it is the very foundation upon which evolutionary science is structured. Eliminating the Creator, (whom we believe is the rightful Sovereign over his creation,) guides human thinking into imagining that they are nothing more than animals, excusing immoral behavior, predatory actions, abuse of power and no one to really answer to at the end of the day, except themselves.

Science does not have a pre-set bias against a creator. It simply hasn't found that hypothesis to be a productive one. In contrast, religious leaders have a *strong* bias against science. The very idea that their viewpoints could be questioned is 'blasphemy' or 'immoral'. How convenient is that? And who do you think gets more access to the average person? A scientist or a preacher? Most science is distributed by journalists, who are horribly ignorant of science (in general). So yes, they often get the stories wrong in a way that it simply isn't worth the time and energy to try to straighten out.

Religious leaders, on the other hand, have a direct line to their audiences from the pulpit. They can immediately convey their biases and the congregations eat it up.

Look where that has led us in this "age of reason". The world is falling apart at the seams in case you haven't noticed.

Take a look at what was going on before the Age of Reason. I, for one, strongly advocate the medicines, the transportation, the communication, the lighting, etc. Even the crime rates are way, way down. Far from falling apart, the world seems to be doing better than in previous centuries. yes, there are still problems: poverty, crime, hunger. But if you go back 300 years ALL of those were far, far worse. Plus the governments and churches then were dictatorial and evil.

With no higher power to account to, some humans can make the status of their intellect into the stuff of deity. Their words and actions can be 'worshipped' by the adoring masses attending their temples of instruction, just as you see with religion. I see no real difference actually. You have your 'religion' (beliefs), your gods (noted scientists) and your holy writings (science text books written by those noted scientists).....its human nature, which never changes....its just channeled into something else.

Worshiping scientists is just as bad as worshiping anything else. The closest I get to worship is a deep respect for truth and honesty. And I have found that religion is usually dishonest. And creationists, in particular, avoid the truth at every step.

For those with insufficient intellect to achieve academic success, there is always sport......the 'religion' of the uneducated masses. (though sometimes the educated are drawn to the competitive aspects of their game of choice.) They too have their idols and their temples which are attended weekly.

And with this, I agree. That sports get funded to the degree they do while we grovel for even basic funding of science or education is insane.

Academia is a very competitive world, driven by ego for the most part. That, I believe is the reason why there is so much emotion displayed by those who can't handle their sacred theory being challenged....and by non-academics at that! How dare they!

On the contrary, scientific theories are challenged every day. And egos clash, having competing viewpoints. The observations and data are what resolve such ego conflicts.

You don't see the situation the way we see it....or could ever imagine it that way. They have taught you well. We all choose who and what we worship.

I don't worship. I respect knowledge, truth, caring, honesty, and compassion. Too bad religion has so little of all of those.

 

[Polymath257]

Then I have done my job. Its all about our choices you see, so if I have helped someone one way or another...I have still played my part. It isn't just minds that respond to information...hearts do a better job....as long as we listen to them. Humans are usually born spiritual by nature if that spirituality is not starved to death, or shamed out of them.

You are a perfect example of how our educational system has failed. And yes, we need to fix it. Too bad religion stands in the way so often. But then, so does politics.

 

[Deeje]

That house analogy was just atrocious givin the first "designed" house itself was little more than caves and natural outcrops in the real world. Not the romanticized abstracts that bounce around in the noggin. I haven't seen God design a house like that either. Just mankind did.

I think you missed the point of the analogy entirely. It wasn't about literal houses......it was about planet Earth being fully equipped to sustain life before it even arrived. No one would expect a literal house to have no builder, architect or tradespeople to connect plumbing or electricity....yet Earth has all of these things and it is not something that even involves biology. Earth's placement in the solar system, in its galaxy....its size, speed of rotation, tilt of its axis.....the actions and position of its moon....none of these things involve biology or evolution. Yet living things could not survive unless all these things were in place. Even the air we breathe, is just the right mixture of gases. Trees breathe out what we breathe in and vice versa. But if the ratio of oxygen was higher, every lightning bolt would cause an explosion. No naked flame could warm us because it would ignite all the oxygen around us and kill us.

That miraculous substance we call water is not found anywhere else in our solar system. Yet without it, no life could survive. Thanks to the design of our atmosphere, not a drop of water has ever left the earth of its own accord. It is brilliantly recycled, like everything else that the Creator designed.
It is clever human scientists, driven by greed and hungry for praise, who have messed up our only home.

Can you tell me what would happen to the earth if water froze like all other liquids? No one so far has ventured an opinion this, but it is just another example of the ingenuity of our Maker.

So, how many convenient co-incidences have to occur before people realize that a Master Designer and Creator was at work here. The list of design features is too great to be just co-incidental.

What a terrible waste of intellect whenever actuality gets exchanged for rose colored ideology and people live in stained glass houses without ever noticing the real way things work during this brief time that we are alive.

Actually, it is a bigger waste when the Creator gets swapped for unsubstantiated ideas created in the imaginations of men, in love with their own intellect. Fantasy is then dressed up as 'actuality' and the devil is sitting back laughing at your gullibility. He has some of the most intelligent minds in the world completely blinded to the truth....so says the Bible. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

 

[Polymath257]

That miraculous substance we call water is not found anywhere else in our solar system. Yet without it, no life could survive. Thanks to the design of our atmosphere, not a drop of water has ever left the earth of its own accord. It is brilliantly recycled, like everything else that the Creator designed.

Wow. How can you be so certain and also be so wrong? Water, in the form of ice (which is liquid water) is quite common in the solar system. We have found it on comets, on the moon, and on Europa. It is quite likely that Europa has liquid water beneath the surface and that Mars has a semi-solid brine.

As for water leaving the atmosphere, the molecular weight of water alone means that it only gradually evaporates off the top of the atmosphere. But there is enough water coming in from comets to balance that. So you are wrong there also.

 

[Polymath257]

Can you tell me what would happen to the earth if water froze like all other liquids? No one so far has ventured an opinion this, but it is just another example of the ingenuity of our Maker.

Since I have read enough creationist journals, I have an idea what you are getting at even if you don't fully understand what was said.

First, water *does* freeze. Look at the North ans South poles. There is constant ice there. The middle latitudes have solid water form every winter.

Now, what you were *probably* getting at is the fact that ice is less dense than liquid water, so ice floats on top of water. Most other chemicals have a solid state that is more dense than their liquid. So most chemicals will sink and build up under temperature fluctuations (that are not too extreme).

However, water is NOT the only chemical with this property. So, for example, Silicon will float on its liquid. So will bismuth, gallium, and germanium. Some polar molecules do also.

 

[Jose Fly]

You are not apparently aware of the motives for our posting on these forums. It's not to convert the masses....in fact its not to convert anyone. Its is just so that those who are indecisive might be exposed to some home truths

And even that is apparently for naught.

the inconvenient ones that scientists will never disclose

If scientists never disclose these facts, how did you or anyone else become aware of them? Psychic powers?

Informed choice is the only one worth making

Then why are you so astoundingly ignorant, even to the point of thinking that "fish", "moth", and "fly" are species designations?

not just the put-downs, which is all scientists know how to do to combat these revelations.

Again you're being flat-out dishonest. You've been provided data and information ad nauseum, some by myself. Your primary response is to complain about the language they choose rather than deal with the actual data.

Public opinion holds no sway at all with the Creator.

Um......ok. Thanks for that........I guess.

 

[Deeje]

You are a perfect example of how our educational system has failed. And yes, we need to fix it. Too bad religion stands in the way so often. But then, so does politics.

There is so much more to this picture.....religion and politics are just two of its major problems.....but I'm afraid that most people will not see it all as it really is until they are confronted by it, according to the scriptures. Shame really. People who take your position say they need proof of the existence of an Intelligent Designer, yet it is all around us...completely denied, as if the notion is offensive.

But then you cite your "evidence" for evolution and we discover that you only have a belief system yourself, dressed up to look like its got real evidence. Science has supposition and suggestion about what they think "might have" happened, but they simply give it a different origin. We see the same evidence and attribute these things to a Masterful Creator. The choice is ours to make.

God doesn't care how smart or how uneducated we are....only that we love him, and our fellow man, and treat our fellow creatures on this planet with respect.....we must obey his direction to qualify for citizenship in his kingdom, which I believe is entirely fair. It is coming...ready or not. (Matthew 6:10) I really want to live there, as paradise conditions are programmed into us humans....its where the Creator intended us to live forever and somewhere that most belief systems point to. Just another co-incidence huh?

 

[james bond]

Yup, that's what creationists mean. Problem is, they think they're meaningful and impress evolutionists. They don't. For all their ability to convince, creationists may just as well stick out their tongues and go

......Neener-neener.

.​

,

Ha ha. If I wanted to make an impression on you, then maybe Jack Chick would help.

See. Only #6 has been observed. No one has seen an ape start walking from all fours to all twos on a regular basis.

 

[Deeje]

Wow. How can you be so certain and also be so wrong? Water, in the form of ice (which is liquid water) is quite common in the solar system. We have found it on comets, on the moon, and on Europa. It is quite likely that Europa has liquid water beneath the surface and that Mars has a semi-solid brine.

There is no liquid water anywhere but Earth. Ice is not liquid. No other planet or moon in our solar system has water in the form that sustains life on earth. What creatures do you imagine could live on any of them?
Why has there been no evolution of other life forms on planets as old as our own? Obviously because only this planet has the means to support life.

As for water leaving the atmosphere, the molecular weight of water alone means that it only gradually evaporates off the top of the atmosphere. But there is enough water coming in from comets to balance that. So you are wrong there also.

I found this article interesting.....from NASA's website. Let the highlighted text tell the real story.

https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/i-see-ice/en/

"Water is everywhere. So far, scientists know of no living things, even the smallest microorganisms, that can live without liquid water. Until recently, Earth was the only place we thought had liquid water, but now we know of other places.

Europa and Callisto, two of Jupiter's moons, may have liquid water oceans beneath a surface crust of ice. In the case of Europa, this ocean may have twice as much water as the whole Earth! Most of the water in the universe, though, is in the form of ice. This ice can come in many forms.
On Earth, the ice is not as cold or hard as it is elsewhere in our solar system. Here the ice is made up of many grains all tightly pressed together. Between these grains is a thin film of water. It is so thin, we might think it is not even there. But, in fact, there is enough water to allow microorganisms to live there. They feed on the minerals in small amounts of dust trapped within the ice.

Scientists discovered these micro-organisms in Antarctica by drilling far down into glaciers. They pull out ice cores with layers of ice that took hundreds of thousands of years to build up.

Ice cores contain a record of past climate. Micro-organisms have been found living in some ice cores buried deep below the surface.

When you get away from Earth, though, the ice becomes so hard that it is like a rock. So, unlike Earth, this ice contains no liquid water.

The rings of Saturn are made up of rock-hard ice particles that have gathered around the planet.

Comets streak through the solar system, releasing small amounts of their ice as it is driven off by the sun's energy, forming a tail. When comets collide with other bodies in the solar system they release all their water to the moon or planet they crashed into. This is one important way in which many planets, like Earth and Mars, and many moons, like Callisto and Europa, may have gotten a lot of their water.

Recently, using a new instrument on the Spitzer Space Telescope, scientists discovered that Enceladus, a moon of Saturn, has water volcanoes spouting up through cracks in its icy surface. The Cassini spacecraft at Saturn has learned more about the water volcanoes during its flyby passes of Enceladus. In fact, the more we look, the more water we see, so it seems more and more that water really is everywhere.

Could there be life out there, too?"

They speak about "water", but its only in the form of ice. The further away you get from the sun, the more solid it becomes.

There is a link to check out the evidence for ice (not water) on other planets. Europa and Mars are covered.

("Use the "I See Ice" viewer to look at some of the many places where ice has been found in our solar system.")

https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/i-see-ice/en/#/review/i-see-ice/page_01.html
Please read what it says and count the number of times that expressions like..... "might be"...."seems to"...."seems most likely"...."appears to have been"...."some scientists think"...."looks similar"...."look as if"...."might even have"...."that could mean"...."it is thought to have been".......then all this conjecture is followed by nothing but speculation.

There is a picture of Saturn's rings.....
(image not available to copy)
The caption reads.....
"This color-enhanced image of Saturn's rings from the Voyager 1 spacecraft shows their detailed structure. The many colors show differences in the composition of each of the thin rings. The rings differ in their recipe of ice and dust content."

It is amazing how complex the ice structures are. How beautiful for something that cannot be seen with the naked eye from earth. I believe it shows us how much there is yet to discover out there and beyond. But I think I would rather do it with a familiar guide, than to stumble through it blindly.....but that is just me.

Now I don't know about you, but all of that tells me that NASA scientists claim to know a lot but in reality they are only guessing. They have no actual proof for anything they say...yet all this speculation is good enough for you all to swallow it all like they must be right...who said?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No. The Babylonian myths come much earlier. And the stories are NOT of actual events, but more like 'Washington chopping down the cherry tree'. Legends that grew out of hand and became myths.


OK, some scrolls from the 7th century BC. Sounds like exactly what I would expect from a tradition going back to about 900BC. But the Babylonian traditions go back a thousand years earlier. The code of Hammurrabi was from 1792 BC. So, yes, the Babylonian myths predate the Biblical myths.





Sure it is. It gives some general rules for living in a society with others. EVERY culture has such. And yes,

But, I would agree with a couple:

How much better to acquire wisdom than gold. Now, go study some science. Go study hisotry the Biblical myths) and learn a bit about the universe and how people have been. That might be the beginning of wisdom for you.

The understanding heart seeks knowledge. I like that one also. So, go learn some physics, some biology, some geology. Go learn how science actually works rather than drinking the koolaid of those feeding you garbage in place of truth.

That's rich, you telling me to "go learn"! Way ahead of you. (Is arrogance a forte of yours?)

I can understand you and your cronies attacking various ideologies. But trying to discredit the Bible as "myth", tells me that you are either honestly misguided (as most are) or willfully ignorant.

The Biblical context we have today, is the same as Newton and Boyle had, scientists who loved the Scriptures and appreciated their value; apparently the parts you label "ambiguous", they understood!

Wow! Imagine that.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@Polymath257 :
"...some scrolls from the 7th century BC."

Keep in mind, these were copies, not originals. Lol.

The originals existed hundreds of years earlier!
Being written on papyri and vellum, not stone (as these were extensive manuscripts), they wouldn't last nearly as long as shorter histories written on stone.

Furthermore, you referred to these writings as ambiguous guidelines for an agrarian society, i.e., ancient Israel. But that's really a strawman; I asked for you to establish proof that those manuscripts written for Christians, i.e., for people today, were ambiguous.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

How's that working out? Is evolutionary theory evaporating away under the force of those arguments?

You tell me, when those who support descent with modification can't even agree as to which mechanisms were selected in species' morphology, or where these organisms fit in the tree of life (which is now a bush, btw), or to what taxonomic classification they belong, etc. There's enough argumentation among these leading scientists, themselves!

Cracks me up!

 

[sayak83]

You tell me, when those who support descent with modification can't even agree as to which mechanisms were selected in species' morphology, or where these organisms fit in the tree of life (which is now a bush, btw), or to what taxonomic classification they belong, etc. There's enough argumentation among these leading scientists, themselves!

Cracks me up!

Evolutionary theory is as well established as the heliocentric theory even though new large trans_neptunian objects continue to be found and status of pluto or even our moon (is it a satellite or are we a binary planet system) continue to be debated. Just goes to show that even the most established theory continue to make progress. Very difficult to find even ONE accepted and established theory or field of science where many major ideas are not continuing to be refined and debated.

 

[Skwim]

Ha ha. If I wanted to make an impression on you, then maybe Jack Chick would help.

See. Only #6 has been observed. No one has seen an ape start walking from all fours to all twos on a regular basis.

And I'm certain you have a whole stack of Chick Tracts at home sitting right next to your Bible for ready reference and inspiration.

The part I like about the Jack Chick organization is that it doesn't care what it presents, even if it's material from frauds and felons. Not that felons can't be trusted, they can, just not very much. ..............Anyway, this little piece of Jack Chick promotion below has always amused me.

The Dissertation Kent Hovind Doesn't Want You to Read​

For Hovind's actual dissertation click HERE. Thing is, while Hovind may anchor the end of the despicable creationists liar spectrum, there are others not far behind.

.
.