How the chickens learned the need to sit on it's eggs ?

[fantome profane]

OK, that much makes sense.



How would they understand something like that?

As far as I understand any of this, a bird's attachment to it's young is purely instinctual. What I'm asking is what could have motivated the creatures to take that first step towards the behaviors that played in the development of those instincts.

I understand the instinct to sit in a safe place, and like I said it makes sense that creatures would want to lay their eggs in a safe place, and it's no stretch to assume that they would develop the habit of using the same places for both things, but IMO none of this helps to explain the development of parental instincts.



That part I get.

I think it helps to try to break down any complex behaviour into smaller simpler behaviours. Could the more complex behaviour come about through very small behaviour changes in already existing behaviours.

Imagine the bird only laid down next to the egg, and only for part of the time. If even some of the body heat was transfered, or if only some protection was provided against cold, that would create some survival advantage. Then the next generations would contain a higher percentage of birds sitting near their eggs. And if some of these birds laid closer than others, and/or for longer periods of time then that would be selected for. And so on until we get what is a quite specific brooding behaviour.

Parental behaviour and instinct can also be broken down into simpler stages and developed slowly over time.

 

[Quagmire]

I think it helps to try to break down any complex behaviour into smaller simpler behaviours. Could the more complex behaviour come about through very small behaviour changes in already existing behaviours.

Imagine the bird only laid down next to the egg, and only for part of the time. If even some of the body heat was transfered, or if only some protection was provided against cold, that would create some survival advantage. Then the next generations would contain a higher percentage of birds sitting near their eggs. And if some of these birds laid closer than others, and/or for longer periods of time then that would be selected for. And so on until we get what is a quite specific brooding behaviour.

Parental behaviour and instinct can also be broken down into simpler stages and developed slowly over time.

And all of this happened in just 6000 years? (just kidding)

OK, I'm satisfied that the question's been answered. Thanks.

 

[shawn001]

FYI

Eggs and Their Evolution

Eggs and Their Evolution

This also goes into

"Why have birds not "advanced" beyond egg laying and started to bear their young alive like mammals?"

at the bottom text and then into things like incubation.

 

[shawn001]

By the way just FYI on which came first

"Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
British scientists claim to have solved the mystery"

Scientists reportedly crack chicken-or-egg riddle - Technology & science - Science | NBC News

also they are back engineering chicken genes and reactivating dinosaur traits still in chickens.

 

[Me Myself]

Then who drives them to sit on the eggs for the survival of their species.

The creator or the unconscious nature

There is neither evidence if a creator nor evidence for nature being "unconscious"

The chickens that didnt sit on eggs didnt got their offspring (without e instict to sit on theirs) to survive, so they didnt, and only the chickens with the insticnt to sit on their eggs survived.

 

[FearGod]

They need to sit somewhere. It is really not that strange. They would lay their eggs in a place they felt safe. They would likey return and spend time in that place. If these animals understood the importance of their eggs and offspring they would have has some attachment to them.

So the initial act of sitting on the egg could be seen as somewhat random animal behaviour, but I can see how it could happen. And once it happened it would provide a survival advantage that could be acted upon by natural selection.

How did they understand that the eggs is important and they should keep an eye on them,why not thinking of them similar to the feces,from where they got such knowledge to know and why they have to sit over the eggs and not just around.

Can you see it rational just to believe it to be random animal behaviour.

 

[WyattDerp]

How does the earth "know" in what patterns to be eroded by wind and rain after millions of years? By it happening.

Can you see it rational just to believe it to be random animal behaviour.

What do you mean by random? If I throw dozens of different objects, and the round ones roll down the street, but the pancakes stay where I threw them, what is "random" about that fact? That I didn't plan the outcome? If I don't throw them, but a bookshelf on which they are collapses, what's random about the fact that the round ones roll, the others don't?

What's your alternative? That God created everything this way because he said he would, which is just as random, but also, contrary to the evolution of the chicken, not backed up by *anything* except pompous claims and gruesome threats? How is any of *that* rational? Don't be sitting in glass houses, throwing stones.. just an idea.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How did they understand that the eggs is important and they should keep an eye on them,why not thinking of them similar to the feces,from where they got such knowledge to know and why they have to sit over the eggs and not just around.

Can you see it rational just to believe it to be random animal behaviour.

Animals will act toward their eggs in a variety of ways. All else being equal, the ones that protect their eggs will have a better survival rate for their eggs, so their genes will be passed along to future generations in greater numbers.

Of course, this is only one strategy that works. Many other species (many fish, for instance) take a different approach: instead of investing lots of energy into a small number of eggs, they don't do much to protect their eggs at all, but lay lots and lots of eggs. Both strategies can work; which one is better depends on the specifics of the particular animal's environment.

 

[FearGod]

Animals will act toward their eggs in a variety of ways. All else being equal, the ones that protect their eggs will have a better survival rate for their eggs, so their genes will be passed along to future generations in greater numbers.

Of course, this is only one strategy that works. Many other species (many fish, for instance) take a different approach: instead of investing lots of energy into a small number of eggs, they don't do much to protect their eggs at all, but lay lots and lots of eggs. Both strategies can work; which one is better depends on the specifics of the particular animal's environment.

But still the question how they did know.

What kind of gene that guides the chicken to guard their eggs and sit over it for hatching.

 

[shawn001]

Feargod, funny you didn't read the post I posted that explains it all?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But still the question how they did know.

What kind of gene that guides the chicken to guard their eggs and sit over it for hatching.

What do you mean by "what kind of gene"? Behaviours are complex things that are influenced by many genes. It's not like there would be a single "sit on your eggs" gene that can turn the behaviour on and off like a light switch.

 

[Iti oj]

How did they understand that the eggs is important and they should keep an eye on them,why not thinking of them similar to the feces,from where they got such knowledge to know and why they have to sit over the eggs and not just around.

Can you see it rational just to believe it to be random animal behaviour.

It does not have to be so black and white, or done for said purpose orginally.

 

[FearGod]

FYI

Eggs and Their Evolution

Eggs and Their Evolution

This also goes into

"Why have birds not "advanced" beyond egg laying and started to bear their young alive like mammals?"

at the bottom text and then into things like incubation.

What that have to do with my question about who implanted the instinct for chicken to sit on their eggs,did the chicken know it already or it is implanted by a supernatural power,as for nature,it is unconscious.

 

[FearGod]

By the way just FYI on which came first

"Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
British scientists claim to have solved the mystery"

Scientists reportedly crack chicken-or-egg riddle - Technology & science - Science | NBC News

also they are back engineering chicken genes and reactivating dinosaur traits still in chickens.

i didn't ask such question about which came first.

 

[FearGod]

What do you mean by "what kind of gene"? Behaviours are complex things that are influenced by many genes. It's not like there would be a single "sit on your eggs" gene that can turn the behaviour on and off like a light switch.

So it is complex,thank you for adding this point.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

But still the question how they did know.

What kind of gene that guides the chicken to guard their eggs and sit over it for hatching.

FearGod. you have fallen into several common misconceptions.
1. They don't KNOW it. It is instinct. How did you KNOW to walk on your feet, rather than on your hands? How did You KNOW to inhale and exhale?
These are all instincts. If your ancient, ancient, ancient ancestors had not done it, then they would not have survived to eventually have you as a descendent.

Which leads us to #s 2 and 3...

Death is common.....and evolution (unlike in sci-fi movies) does NOT occur in an individual. It occurs in their gametes. It occurs by random mutations, and most of those mutations are irrelevant, a few are bad, and a super rare one is good.

- For this following example, lets say that some ancient fish had 1 mutated gamete in every 100 eggs it laid (a horrendously high percentage in the real world, but this is just an easy mathematical number)....
- In some ancient prehistoric ocean, some fish laid 1000 eggs, just like all of its 1000 own brothers and sisters. And like its siblings, it then swam away. As always, a small parasite fish came and ate half of the eggs.
- Now then, 495 of the survivors were just like mom & dad; and by chance mutation 3 had blue tails; 1 had an uncontrollable desire/instinct to eat its own eggs .....But one of the surviving 500 had a habit/instinct not to travel away after laying eggs. When all 500 grew and laid their own eggs 498 swam away to let their young survive as luck would have it. The one with the eating problem consumed its own young and that particular mutation quickly became extinct. :cover:
- But the one that hung around, ate the little parasite fish when they arrived, and all of its own offspring (who now carried the instinct to hang around the eggs and eat the parasites) survived to mate and pass their new, successful mutation foward.
- If you carry on the math, you quickly see how this 1 in a million mutation will unavoidably become the standard just a few generations down the road.
...and that is another common misconception you demonstrate. These things DON'T just pop up overnight. It takes generations, sometimes many, before such odd mutations become the "well duh!" kind of commonplace feature we see in animal species. When scientists discuss mutations they speak in terms of tens of thousands of year epochs. When idiots consider evolution, they say things like "why don't we see monkeys evolving into people today?"

 

[dust1n]

Chicken Bible, obviously.

 

[painted wolf]

The question in my mind though is this: what could have motivated the first "egg-sitters" to sit on their eggs in the first place? It's not like some lizard-like pre-bird had a sudden flash of insight and said to herself, "Hey! the world's colder than it used to be! If I want my brood to hatch I better sit on those suckers!".

I mean, I can understand how the instinct would have developed from there, but it must have began with creatures who didn't actually have it, right?.

"Brooding" behavior is actually quite common among egg laying species regardless of the need to keep the eggs warm or not.

The primary purpose is not to keep the eggs warm, but to protect them from predators.

The behavior also happens to have the added benefit (for some species) of keeping the eggs warm... if you happen to be warm blooded or can generate heat in some way.

It's not difficult to go from protective brooding to insulation brooding behaviorally speaking.

Bird-like brooding behavior has been preserved in dinosaurs... if they were doing it to keep eggs warm or just to protect them, we can't say... but the chicken got it from it's dinosaur ancestors.

wa:do

 

[FearGod]

FearGod. you have fallen into several common misconceptions.
1. They don't KNOW it. It is instinct. How did you KNOW to walk on your feet, rather than on your hands? How did You KNOW to inhale and exhale?
These are all instincts. If your ancient, ancient, ancient ancestors had not done it, then they would not have survived to eventually have you as a descendent.

Which leads us to #s 2 and 3...

Death is common.....and evolution (unlike in sci-fi movies) does NOT occur in an individual. It occurs in their gametes. It occurs by random mutations, and most of those mutations are irrelevant, a few are bad, and a super rare one is good.

- For this following example, lets say that some ancient fish had 1 mutated gamete in every 100 eggs it laid (a horrendously high percentage in the real world, but this is just an easy mathematical number)....
- In some ancient prehistoric ocean, some fish laid 1000 eggs, just like all of its 1000 own brothers and sisters. And like its siblings, it then swam away. As always, a small parasite fish came and ate half of the eggs.
- Now then, 495 of the survivors were just like mom & dad; and by chance mutation 3 had blue tails; 1 had an uncontrollable desire/instinct to eat its own eggs .....But one of the surviving 500 had a habit/instinct not to travel away after laying eggs. When all 500 grew and laid their own eggs 498 swam away to let their young survive as luck would have it. The one with the eating problem consumed its own young and that particular mutation quickly became extinct. :cover:
- But the one that hung around, ate the little parasite fish when they arrived, and all of its own offspring (who now carried the instinct to hang around the eggs and eat the parasites) survived to mate and pass their new, successful mutation foward.
- If you carry on the math, you quickly see how this 1 in a million mutation will unavoidably become the standard just a few generations down the road.
...and that is another common misconception you demonstrate. These things DON'T just pop up overnight. It takes generations, sometimes many, before such odd mutations become the "well duh!" kind of commonplace feature we see in animal species. When scientists discuss mutations they speak in terms of tens of thousands of year epochs. When idiots consider evolution, they say things like "why don't we see monkeys evolving into people today?"

Yes i know it is called instinct and which is an act that done without teaching and learning but is implanted in the creature.

So that was my question without using the term instict but describing it in my own words how they have learned without being taught.

Yes,genetics otherwise you have no escape from the other choice and which is the work of the creator.

So lets apply this for the instinct behaviour of the homosexual that they have an implanted feeling toward same sex.

During millions of years of human progress the genetics of homosexual still exist and it isn't of benefit for the offsprings.

Now the homosexual won't have offsprings during the human progress and then according to your logic then the sexual instinct toward the same sex should have not been selected but it is still exist even though it is against the most important role in the natural selection concept and which is survial and reproduction and still homosexual are coming generation after generation.

Evolutionist accused religion to be wrong towards the homosexuals because it is genetics and not a bad behaviour,so how it works.

 

[apophenia]

Evolutionist accused religion to be wrong towards the homosexuals because it is genetics and not a bad behaviour,so how it works.

Homosexuals were made that way by Allah.