How the Victimhood Culture is Teaching People to View Others as Good or Evil

[Sunstone]

Jonathan Haidt on how the victimhood culture on some college campuses is producing a generation of weak and fragile students and teaching them to see other people in black and white terms as good or evil.

Questions? Comments?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Jonathan Haidt on how the victimhood culture on some college campuses is producing a generation of weak and fragile students and teaching them to see other people in black and white terms as good or evil.

Questions? Comments?

I hadn’t really thought too much about victim culture as it’s not what I grew up with. It’s important to raise young people who will be resilient, capable and confident so they can make their way in the world and be contributing members of the community. OTOH prejudice in its myriad forms is real and a barrier to working amidst diverse peoples. It’s about getting the balance right. Maybe the pendulum has swung too far in American Universities, I don’t know. As an outsider looking at American culture, it’s not too pretty at the moment.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Ironically, in the background I was listening to a show of personal accounts of sexual assault victim blaming on college campuses. With the repeating story of a sexual assaulter who was turned down by a girl began to write all manners of threatening and vile language on her whiteboard attached to her door. When brought to the campus attention she was told to 'take down the whiteboard.' When she did, he wrote on the physical door in sharpie instead. 'Oh well, nothing we can do. Just something you'll have to ignore.' In other words, 'toughen up, grow a thicker skin.'
So I have some feelings and misgivings at what I see as a growing intolerance for victim blaming called 'weakness and fragility' or 'victim complex.' And the philosophy of 'dignity' vs 'victim' so easily used to ignore anything pre-filed under 'trivial' in the minds of people who aren't effected. Which is not to say there isn't a decent discussion to be had about the subject and how best to approach it. But imo, this isn't it.

Back when Haidt's book came out, John Jost did a wonderful review that I think is apt towards this lecture:

"...however, I worry that his theory raises more questions than it answers. Why do some individuals feel that it is morally good (or necessary) to obey authority, favor the ingroup, and maintain purity, whereas others are skeptical? (Perhaps parenting style is relevant after all.) Why do some people think that it is morally acceptable to judge or even mistreat others such as gay or lesbian couples or, only a generation ago, interracial couples because they dislike or feel disgusted by them, whereas others do not? Why does the present generation “care about violence toward many more classes of victims today than [their] grandparents did in their time” (p. 134)? Haidt dismisses the possibility that this aspect of liberalism, which prizes universal over parochial considerations (the justice principle of impartiality), is in fact a tremendous cultural achievement—a shared victory over the limitations of our more primitive ancestral legacy. In this spirit, he spurns the John Lennon song, “Imagine”: "Imagine if there were no countries, and no religion too. If we could just erase the borders and boundaries that divide us, then the world would ‘be as one.’ It’s a vision of heaven for liberals, but conservatives believe it would quickly descend into hell. I think conservatives are on to something." (p. 311) Throughout the book Haidt mocks the liberal vision of a tolerant, pluralistic, civil society, but, ironically, this is precisely where he wants to end up, quoting Isaiah Berlin with evident approval at the end of his book: “I came to the conclusion that there is a plurality of ideals, as there is a plurality of cultures and of temperaments” (p. 320)".

 

[Sunstone]

Ironically, in the background I was listening to a show of personal accounts of sexual assault victim blaming on college campuses. With the repeating story of a sexual assaulter who was turned down by a girl began to write all manners of threatening and vile language on her whiteboard attached to her door. When brought to the campus attention she was told to 'take down the whiteboard.' When she did, he wrote on the physical door in sharpie instead. 'Oh well, nothing we can do. Just something you'll have to ignore.' In other words, 'toughen up, grow a thicker skin.'

Obviously, the woman had a case against the man that was mishandled by the authorities.

It's deeply concerning they would, in effect, tell her to deal with a known sexual assaulter by "toughening up" or its equivalent. Of course, this assumes there is no more to the story than we know. But whatever the case, it is certain that the notion such problems should be dealt with simply by "growing a thicker skin" has been misapplied uncountable times. For instance, school bullies routinely get off the hook in many schools because their victims are merely told to "grow a thicker skin". While that strikes me as good advice for trivial insults, it should never be used as a reason to dismiss serious offenses.

On the other hand, I think a reasonable argument can be made for the notion that victim culture has gone too far in the other direction on some campuses these days. In addition, I am especially concerned with Haidt's argument that victimhood culture is teaching people to regard others as either good or evil.

 

[Kapalika]

I had already linked an article regarding the related subject of political correctness (which plays into this as it relates to people feeling 'victimized' by being offended in this similar war) in your other thread (I'll fix this link later if it's wrong, site is having maintenance atm) https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/12/17100496/political-correctness-data

That said, I don't think there is such a "victim culture". Historically it's always been the conservatives who feel they are being victimized anytime a minority gets rights. Look at for example Christians who feel "persecuted" when others get a platform or when they are being criticized. A very conservative church my father went to would actually say that they faced persecution whenever they didn't get their way in society or they couldn't teach creationism in schools or even just someone being critical. I've seen the same thing with the LGBT rights movement and so many others.

This article, while talking about immigration, is also apt for any group I think as it touches on why so many people fight to try to stay above others in terms of social stratification:

Why America is the World’s Most Uniquely Cruel Society

In my experience and observation conservatives want to just dismiss anyone as having a "victim mentality" whenever they are criticized for saying something offensive. If people don't believe that this is the trend to excuse racist or hateful speech then just consider that Nazis and far right groups particularly associated with the alt-right (and supportive of Trump) have risen in prominence. Things like Charlottesville have been brewing for years and these groups feel emboldened. If campuses and society was so much into censoring everyone and all that under some kind of victim culture, why would these groups feel so free to openly chant to kill Jews in the streets and murder protesters? Why would a man go into a synagogue and shoot up the place? Why would a racist go into a black church and shoot people?

Perhaps campuses are pretty much the same as they have been for ages, but America as a nation has drifted so far into the far right wing. Sure, there are more support groups or whatever, and sometimes colleges take things a little too far. But usually it's the conservatives that project victimhood (think of that crying Neo-Nazi trying to get sympathy in his one video, and in another claiming to use it as a tactic, if anyone knows the name of it I forget) while plotting their own ways to actually oppress others.

All in all, this cry about colleges being too soft, is I think mostly a weapon used by conservatives to try to set up a system to easily dismiss criticism, demonize higher education as having a liberal bias (as much of Republican voter base is less educated), and generally because those marginalized groups often actually being victimized, if taken seriously, would threaten their socio-political power structure.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I had already linked an article regarding the related subject of political correctness (which plays into this as it relates to people feeling 'victimized' by being offended in this similar war) in your other thread (I'll fix this link later if it's wrong, site is having maintenance atm) Everything we think about the political correctness debate is wrong

That said, I don't think there is such a "victim culture". Historically it's always been the conservatives who feel they are being victimized anytime a minority gets rights. Look at for example Christians who feel "persecuted" when others get a platform or when they are being criticized. A very conservative church my father went to would actually say that they faced persecution whenever they didn't get their way in society or they couldn't teach creationism in schools or even just someone being critical. I've seen the same thing with the LGBT rights movement and so many others.

This article, while talking about immigration, is also apt for any group I think as it touches on why so many people fight to try to stay above others in terms of social stratification:

Why America is the World’s Most Uniquely Cruel Society

In my experience and observation conservatives want to just dismiss anyone as having a "victim mentality" whenever they are criticized for saying something offensive. If people don't believe that this is the trend to excuse racist or hateful speech then just consider that Nazis and far right groups particularly associated with the alt-right (and supportive of Trump) have risen in prominence. Things like Charlottesville have been brewing for years and these groups feel emboldened. If campuses and society was so much into censoring everyone and all that under some kind of victim culture, why would these groups feel so free to openly chant to kill Jews in the streets and murder protesters? Why would a man go into a synagogue and shoot up the place? Why would a racist go into a black church and shoot people?

Perhaps campuses are pretty much the same as they have been for ages, but America as a nation has drifted so far into the far right wing. Sure, there are more support groups or whatever, and sometimes colleges take things a little too far. But usually it's the conservatives that project victimhood (think of that crying Neo-Nazi trying to get sympathy in his one video, and in another claiming to use it as a tactic, if anyone knows the name of it I forget) while plotting their own ways to actually oppress others.

All in all, this cry about colleges being too soft, is I think mostly a weapon used by conservatives to try to set up a system to easily dismiss criticism, demonize higher education as having a liberal bias (as much of Republican voter base is less educated), and generally because those marginalized groups often actually being victimized, if taken seriously, would threaten their socio-political power structure.

I dunno...there's no doubt people get upset by far less impactful things now than they did.
I can see positives to that, but if everything becomes important, the truly important things are just going to blend in with the white noise.

 

[BSM1]

I had already linked an article regarding the related subject of political correctness (which plays into this as it relates to people feeling 'victimized' by being offended in this similar war) in your other thread (I'll fix this link later if it's wrong, site is having maintenance atm) Everything we think about the political correctness debate is wrong

That said, I don't think there is such a "victim culture". Historically it's always been the conservatives who feel they are being victimized anytime a minority gets rights. Look at for example Christians who feel "persecuted" when others get a platform or when they are being criticized. A very conservative church my father went to would actually say that they faced persecution whenever they didn't get their way in society or they couldn't teach creationism in schools or even just someone being critical. I've seen the same thing with the LGBT rights movement and so many others.

This article, while talking about immigration, is also apt for any group I think as it touches on why so many people fight to try to stay above others in terms of social stratification:

Why America is the World’s Most Uniquely Cruel Society

In my experience and observation conservatives want to just dismiss anyone as having a "victim mentality" whenever they are criticized for saying something offensive. If people don't believe that this is the trend to excuse racist or hateful speech then just consider that Nazis and far right groups particularly associated with the alt-right (and supportive of Trump) have risen in prominence. Things like Charlottesville have been brewing for years and these groups feel emboldened. If campuses and society was so much into censoring everyone and all that under some kind of victim culture, why would these groups feel so free to openly chant to kill Jews in the streets and murder protesters? Why would a man go into a synagogue and shoot up the place? Why would a racist go into a black church and shoot people?

Perhaps campuses are pretty much the same as they have been for ages, but America as a nation has drifted so far into the far right wing. Sure, there are more support groups or whatever, and sometimes colleges take things a little too far. But usually it's the conservatives that project victimhood (think of that crying Neo-Nazi trying to get sympathy in his one video, and in another claiming to use it as a tactic, if anyone knows the name of it I forget) while plotting their own ways to actually oppress others.

All in all, this cry about colleges being too soft, is I think mostly a weapon used by conservatives to try to set up a system to easily dismiss criticism, demonize higher education as having a liberal bias (as much of Republican voter base is less educated), and generally because those marginalized groups often actually being victimized, if taken seriously, would threaten their socio-political power structure.

Not to be argumentative, but this is the first time in my lifetime that colleges ever established 'crying closets' for students who feel the need for a good cry. Yeah, like your life sucks...

https://nypost.com/2018/04/26/college-adds-cry-closet-for-stressed-out-students/

 

[Stanyon]

Not to be argumentative, but this is the first time in my lifetime that colleges ever established 'crying closets' for students who feel the need for a good cry. Yeah, like your life sucks...

https://nypost.com/2018/04/26/college-adds-cry-closet-for-stressed-out-students/

That's about on par with what KU did with companion dogs. The idea was that young adults away from home that were depressed could have a dog on loan for a companion, fair enough but they loaned them out after the 2016 election for those that were upset that Trump won.
Haha haha!
Weenies

 

[Audie]

I had already linked an article regarding the related subject of political correctness (which plays into this as it relates to people feeling 'victimized' by being offended in this similar war) in your other thread (I'll fix this link later if it's wrong, site is having maintenance atm) Everything we think about the political correctness debate is wrong

That said, I don't think there is such a "victim culture". Historically it's always been the conservatives who feel they are being victimized anytime a minority gets rights. Look at for example Christians who feel "persecuted" when others get a platform or when they are being criticized. A very conservative church my father went to would actually say that they faced persecution whenever they didn't get their way in society or they couldn't teach creationism in schools or even just someone being critical. I've seen the same thing with the LGBT rights movement and so many others.

This article, while talking about immigration, is also apt for any group I think as it touches on why so many people fight to try to stay above others in terms of social stratification:

Why America is the World’s Most Uniquely Cruel Society

In my experience and observation conservatives want to just dismiss anyone as having a "victim mentality" whenever they are criticized for saying something offensive. If people don't believe that this is the trend to excuse racist or hateful speech then just consider that Nazis and far right groups particularly associated with the alt-right (and supportive of Trump) have risen in prominence. Things like Charlottesville have been brewing for years and these groups feel emboldened. If campuses and society was so much into censoring everyone and all that under some kind of victim culture, why would these groups feel so free to openly chant to kill Jews in the streets and murder protesters? Why would a man go into a synagogue and shoot up the place? Why would a racist go into a black church and shoot people?

Perhaps campuses are pretty much the same as they have been for ages, but America as a nation has drifted so far into the far right wing. Sure, there are more support groups or whatever, and sometimes colleges take things a little too far. But usually it's the conservatives that project victimhood (think of that crying Neo-Nazi trying to get sympathy in his one video, and in another claiming to use it as a tactic, if anyone knows the name of it I forget) while plotting their own ways to actually oppress others.

All in all, this cry about colleges being too soft, is I think mostly a weapon used by conservatives to try to set up a system to easily dismiss criticism, demonize higher education as having a liberal bias (as much of Republican voter base is less educated), and generally because those marginalized groups often actually being victimized, if taken seriously, would threaten their socio-political power structure.

This kind of post is so depressing.
Seeing people cheer it on, more so.

Sorry, I dont see any "win" in this. I just see
someone blaming those dirty conservatives
for every problem. Speaking of "demonize"
and all.

It is unrealistic, one sided, and nuts.
You guys are all going to be real sorry if you
keep this up.
(you want uneducated?

 

[Audie]

Ironically, in the background I was listening to a show of personal accounts of sexual assault victim blaming on college campuses. With the repeating story of a sexual assaulter who was turned down by a girl began to write all manners of threatening and vile language on her whiteboard attached to her door. When brought to the campus attention she was told to 'take down the whiteboard.' When she did, he wrote on the physical door in sharpie instead. 'Oh well, nothing we can do. Just something you'll have to ignore.' In other words, 'toughen up, grow a thicker skin.'
So I have some feelings and misgivings at what I see as a growing intolerance for victim blaming called 'weakness and fragility' or 'victim complex.' And the philosophy of 'dignity' vs 'victim' so easily used to ignore anything pre-filed under 'trivial' in the minds of people who aren't effected. Which is not to say there isn't a decent discussion to be had about the subject and how best to approach it. But imo, this isn't it.

Back when Haidt's book came out, John Jost did a wonderful review that I think is apt towards this lecture:

As an undergrad, I went to my dorm room one
day to find someone had written "Chink" on
my door.

After a good cry, I set out to find who did it.
Took a while, but, I figured out whose handwriting
it was.

I confronted him in front of other students, and
he, well, he was real apologetic, and in this
case he was actually just an immature jerk.

Not to say that way worse way way worse
is not out there. Just relating my experience.

 

[Audie]

Jonathan Haidt on how the victimhood culture on some college campuses is producing a generation of weak and fragile students and teaching them to see other people in black and white terms as good or evil.

Questions? Comments?

I am sure it does not help to reinforce
this kind of thinking, that is already so
pervasive.

Observe the lib v con right here in this
thread, binary thinking. Us good,
them evil. Bigotry, in full glory.

As for weak and fragile, when I hear
about how just dreadful it is to be
subjected to microaggression, I feel
like, give me a break. This is really
too petty and stupid.

Not that I would wish it on anyone, but
any of us who have been through the
macro kind, well, what. I guess I dont
know what to say.

Someone jumping in to say me too me too,
I have suffered a sexual assault because
someone exceeded the 2- second- look rule,
well.I dont know what to say. It is pretty
messed up. What are they thinking?

 

[PureX]

We exist in a culture of victimization because it is a main tenet of our culture that we humans must and should compete with each other for the opportunity to fulfill our own existence. Because we believe that there should be 'winners' and 'losers', the free and the subjugated, there are winners and losers among us, and the free and the subjugated. Pretending that this is not so is delusional. Blaming the victims is part of the victimization culture.

 

[David1967]

As an undergrad, I went to my dorm room one
day to find someone had written "Chink" on
my door.

I remember when I was in college in the late eighties some redneck called my roommate a "chink". He said to the guy, "Nope, I'm Japanese" and went on his way.

 

[Audie]

We exist in a culture of victimization because it is a main tenet of our culture that we humans must and should compete with each other for the opportunity to fulfill our own existence. Because we believe that there should be 'winners' and 'losers', the free and the subjugated, there are winners and losers among us, and the free and the subjugated. Pretending that this is not so is delusional. Blaming the victims is part of the victimization culture.

Oh so, this "culture" is just the universal human condition,
and the USA is in no way overdoing it.

 

[Stanyon]

The U.S. government has long considered what we call "social justice warriors" as useful idiots to use to destabilize countries. This idea is briefly mentioned in a thirty or so page pamphlet on psychological warfare that was issued during the war in Nicaragua and has since been declassified.

 

[Audie]

The U.S. government has long considered what we call "social justice warriors" as useful idiots to use to destabilize countries. This idea is briefly mentioned in a thirty or so page pamphlet that was issued during the war in Nicaragua that has been declassified.

This somehow does not ring true.

Care to cite the source, and maybe post relevant passages?

Also-there is a lawsuit by Asian students, against Harvard
over their discriminatory admission program.

Is this an example of what you'd call action by "social justice
warriors"?

If not, what is, and how do they "destabilize"?

I mean, other than how the stability of, say, the Jim Crow
south was destabilized by the civil rights act.

 

[TashaN]

Jonathan Haidt on how the victimhood culture on some college campuses is producing a generation of weak and fragile students and teaching them to see other people in black and white terms as good or evil.

Questions? Comments?

Hi uncle Phil. Long time huh? I hope you are doing great!

I have a question for you. What do you personally think of what he said?

Peace,
Tashan

 

[Augustus]

Also-there is a lawsuit by Asian students, against Harvard
over their discriminatory admission program.

Is this an example of what you'd call action by "social justice
warriors"?

Isn't that sort of the opposite?

Asian students are discriminated against in order to promote diversity because they are doing too well and take up too many places. So Asians are discriminated against so that minorities and 'people of colour' get a fair chance

I guess this probably makes Asians racist for objecting to being discriminated against

Incidentally, affirmative action programmes can potentially have a negative effect on those who take them up at elite universities, at least regarding STEM subjects. The drop out rate is higher as they are more likely to find the work hard. This means they can lose confidence due to constantly coming near the bottom of the class as it's full of geniuses, compounded by the fact that they are used to being close to the smartest person in the room at school.

 

[Audie]

Isn't that sort of the opposite?

Asian students are discriminated against in order to promote diversity because they are doing too well and take up too many places. So Asians are discriminated against so that minorities and 'people of colour' get a fair chance

I guess this probably makes Asians racist for objecting to being discriminated against

Incidentally, affirmative action programmes can potentially have a negative effect on those who take them up at elite universities, at least regarding STEM subjects. The drop out rate is higher as they are more likely to find the work hard. This means they can lose confidence due to constantly coming near the bottom of the class as it's full of geniuses, compounded by the fact that they are used to being close to the smartest person in the room at school.

Asians are kind of noted for that whole overachiever thing.

The opposites and the "reverse discrimination" and the
make up for the past and all, yeah. Social justice is
social engineering, and maybe it is my commie background,
but I do not like it, any of it.

The problem, as I see it, is not solved top down from
policies.

Take your native Americans, they are every bit as capable
as any buncha Asians.

But they tell themselves the wrong story.

They need, as to some others we could mention,
to start telling themselves a different story.

A bunch of U faculty or politicians sitting around
concocting policy wont do it.

I did not read this review, but I did read the book And >I<
that is, Min the Usually Correct, say it is very worth reading.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...44629433ba3_story.html?utm_term=.a6651a65746b

 

[Shad]

Ironically, in the background I was listening to a show of personal accounts of sexual assault victim blaming on college campuses. With the repeating story of a sexual assaulter who was turned down by a girl began to write all manners of threatening and vile language on her whiteboard attached to her door. When brought to the campus attention she was told to 'take down the whiteboard.' When she did, he wrote on the physical door in sharpie instead. 'Oh well, nothing we can do. Just something you'll have to ignore.' In other words, 'toughen up, grow a thicker skin.'

She went to the wrong authorities.