Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Bees and wasps make nice hexagons.
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How The World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind
- Thread starter Geoff-Allen
- Start date
I felt the same way. It led me to deism.I tried being atheist. My problem was that I kept seeing God in everything. I guess my definition of God was just not narrow enough
I can't help but believe in the concept of god. It is the humans claiming to know about and speak for God that I find so false and non-credible.
Yes to God!
No to people claiming to be prophets.
Tom
Skwim
Veteran Member
My first thought was, Bertrand Russell. But Antony Flew, the most "notorious"? Of course all atheists offend the theist. In any case, I came across the following remark by Flew. "
The "inoffensive" being a slam against the god of Abraham.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I suspect their eyes (a collection of multiple lenses clustered) result in hexagonal images.
so they build that way.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I likely suspect DNA and cells build in a comparable manner into more intricate and complex ways which in culmination brings about what people consider as designed.
Its just the intelligence that designed it happens to be a result from natural interactions and reactions that bring it all about.
I suppose it looks too incredulous to think natural chemical and biological processes are responsible, but it's the only thing that is readily observed and entirely responsible for what has manifested. When you think of atoms and the infinite combinations they can interact and produce through combinations brought about by the various arrangement of shells it's not too far fetched to at least somewhat grasp how the complexity can work out something like intelligence and design without any need for a divine designer.
vaguelyhumanoid
Active Member
He's a deist, not any sort of conventional theist, and he was never that notorious.
Personally, I think deism kinda takes the least interesting and necessary parts of theism without the aesthetics, ritual, sense of wonder etc. So I'm not a fan.
Personally, I think deism kinda takes the least interesting and necessary parts of theism without the aesthetics, ritual, sense of wonder etc. So I'm not a fan.
Bees and wasps have an intelligence and intent.
Only if by "practical purposes" you mean something akin to "what's in it for me."
Hardly.
Deism is not suitable to prophets, social pressure, dogmatic claims. It is a world away from theistic religion.
What I find interesting is how the photo in your link was careful to cut out the name of the co-author, Ray Varghese, on the cover.
Since Flew himself said that the entire book was written by Varghese, this seems like a major oversight on his part. (Edit: i.e. on the part of the author of that web page)
... but even if the cropping was done intentionally, it would not be the most unethical thing to do with this book. The way that the Christian establishment trotted out an atheist "spokesman" who passed through deism on his way to dementia, and who signed off on a ghost-written book while his competency was questionable - is shameful. The fact that some Christians treat it as some sort of triumph says volumes about them... and none of it positive.
A summary of the other side of the story - the one your apologist web site conveniently failed to mention:
http://brane-space.blogspot.ca/2011/02/was-antony-flew-competent-to-write-his.html?m=1
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Skwim
Veteran Member
Only by accident. The hexagonal shape is the result of efficiency in geometrical packing.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
What I have never understood is how positing that there is a supreme intelligence that "created" life makes so many people feel more comfortable with their lives here on Earth. The supreme intelligence had to have come from somewhere, didn't it? If not, then why are you comfortable with the supreme intelligence having no creator (while remaining completely uncomfortable with the idea that the universe had no creator)?
I say something like "The universe has probably always existed", and from believers I get back "Silly man, of course the universe had a beginning." Then I ask "Did God have a beginning?" the answer is "No, God has always existed." It is conceptually hypocritical.
I say something like "The universe has probably always existed", and from believers I get back "Silly man, of course the universe had a beginning." Then I ask "Did God have a beginning?" the answer is "No, God has always existed." It is conceptually hypocritical.
As I understand it, people sometimes feel somewhat more reassured by the idea that they are "part of a plan". That would imply or suggest that their troubles and dillemmas must ultimately have reasonable solutions and "be worth the trouble" in some meaningful way, even if they themselves might fail to notice, perceive or have the means to express or conceive any.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
I would amend and say it's not "by accident". It's out of necessity. That's what most people fail to realize - nature is ALWAYS looking for the path of least resistance - how does a job get done with minimal effort, in the best possible way it can be done? A hexagon was the necessary model by which the creatures' structures would provide the necessary room and not collapse. But, of course, it is not as if the bees "chose" the hexagon. More or less, the hexagon chose them, after a fashion - through countless generations of success and failure, with the successes leading to greater and greater "pseudo-understanding" through instinct. I think someone also mentioned bees having an "intelligence" and intent. Intent, surely, but it is not intelligence, necessarily, that drives the hexagonal shaping of the walls of their structures. I would argue that the bee does not understand why it uses the hexagon shape. By now that's simply "how it's done" as far as the bee is concerned.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Yes .. the origin of intelligence/conscience is clearly hidden from us ie. while we 'occupy' physical bodies, by design we are not supposed to recall any previous state
Whether the universe has been around 'forever' or not is irrelevant, really .. our observations however show that the universe is continually expanding which suggests that there was some sort of beginning
Not at all! God is not physical, and does not 'require' a beginning .. mankind struggles with infinite concepts, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist
@muhammad_isa : So we should simply assume that there is a Creator God... because...?
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
The expansion of the matter within the universe does not preclude there also being contraction. I see this posted all of the time in argument that there "had to be" a beginning to the universe. Do you realize that you, yourself have gravitational/force ties to the matter that exists in galaxies completely separate from our own? That there is attraction there, however minute, and ALWAYS will be, according to the immutable laws governing the universe's existence? The reason that this is significant, to my mind, is that, given (literally) infinite time, there is no way I can see bodies moving away from one another infinitely. Eventually, large masses will coalesce and bring about huge gravity wells that will reach further and further outward into the universe, pulling at everything - slowing down the mass that is out there pushing outward, until finally it too is being reeled back in. And what if the ultimate contraction of most of that matter results in a cataclysmic realization of "critical mass" - at which point it all explodes forth again in another expansion. A process we can never "observe" because it takes trillions upon trillions of years - not to mention the fact that it would inevitably result in the destruction of our planet and billions of others - though Earth would have met it's demise LONG before the event anyway.
If I were the kind of person who used emoticons/emoji, I would face-palm here. I just posited an "infinite concept" when I stated that I believe that the universe has always existed - to even hint that I don't believe in God simply because I "struggle with infinite concepts" is asinine at that point.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
If you say so .. and I pointed it out to be irrelevant, really.
..according to you then, you just happen to be here because you are .. and the universe just happens to be here because it is.
You are clearly happy with this, for some reason .. I am not .. why? This philosophy/belief does not explain anything spiritual. I am a physical and SPIRITUAL being, so it doesn't provide me with a complete answer/explanation of existence .. whereas the existence of God DOES. Furthermore the Abrahamic scriptures all fit together like a jig-saw puzzle. Those people who claim it to be "made up fairy tales" ascribe to mankind an elaborate sherade over centuries.
No! The only deception here is denial of a spiritual dimension to existence.
That is creating a problem where there is no need for any, @muhammad_isa
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
It is also just as irrelevant to claim anything about God's infinite existence then, is it not?
You're entirely wrong about the lack of something "spiritual" in my set of beliefs. The universe itself is full of wonders more profound than we can even contemplate. We say we "know" something about this or that, but when it comes to the most basic building blocks of the matter and energy of the universe we reach a level at which there simply are no explanations except "this is how it is, and functions how it functions." Gravity is a perfect example. A fundamental aspect of the universe, and we pride ourselves on having discovered the mathematical representation of the forces at work - and yet the REASON behind mass drawing other mass to itself? Completely unknown - it has to be accepted that that is "just how it is". So the mysteries are there, and will likely never be "explained". Do I need God to explain them for me? To make me feel knowledgeable about an area I have no other explanations for? Certainly not. Am I still just as amazed at the pure precision and administration of it all? Of course. I have a reverence to the functioning of the universe that may just rival your reverence for God.
We are the stuff of the universe aware of itself. That in and of itself is no less amazing than any idea of "God", to my mind.