How to be poor.

[Rakhel]

there is also an online community that allows for one person to "off load" unwanted items onto someone in need/want of that particular item. The Freecycle Network

Some others are on Facebook. I found a free market by chance. Some of the volunteers there were actually mending clothes free of charge. We gave a bunch of large toys our kids don't play with and picked up a 14 inch cast iron skillet at one.
You just have to be willing to look.

Thinking about my childhood, I remembered something.

When I was a teen myself, my mother and I were walking home from the supermarket and saw one of the stock boys throwing about 10 pints of ice cream. She walked up to the guy and asked if she could have the ice cream if it was still good. He looked at her and told her to go get a cart(We lived 3 blocks away from the store.), and he would load it into the cart. After that, when ever he had vegetables or fruit that was too ripe for the floor, or ran out of room on the shelves, he would save it for her.
At the time, it embarrassed me, the idea that we were so poor that we couldn't pay for our food. However, as an adult with kids of my own, I realize that sometimes you just have to swallow some of your pride. Not all of it, though. I still won't gravel to my grandfather. I don't care how much money he has.

 

[Revoltingest]

These damn artists. All they do is consume everything by people who contribute more to society. They never give anything to the culture, to the people, to anything really except....hey...I heard of a poetry reading somewhere and a drumming festival that sounds fun! Wanna go meet up and catch some tunes and grab a bite to eat afterward at the brewey where there's that indie film showing?

Oh, I forgot to keep putting those damn starving artists in their place, let me continue...they never contribute to society. All they do is take take take and given nothing in return...*trails off*...

You jest, but if an artist decides to pursue a profession which pays so little that other taxpayers must carry his load,
this does seem an unethical choice. Sure the artist might convince himself that he offers intangible value which justifies
this eleemosynary existence, but the taxpayer who has no choice in providing the largess, would likely disagree. To be
poor by choice is fine, provided that one is not a burden to the unwilling.

 

[Alceste]

Your health insurance will be there, when the day comes for you to use it. And as poor as you say you are, your
consumption tax appears to not be enuf to pull your weight in gov bennies consumed. No doubt that oil worker
pay & tax money finds its way to where you live. And your better off neighbors & their tourist customers foot
the bill for infrastructure you use.

Quite a stretch, don't you think? Gas tax here is huge. Every time I fill my tank, I'm paying for the roads. The more I drive, the more I pay. I thought you libertarians liked consumption tax, as opposed to income tax. I'm paying consumption taxes up the Ying Yang, but no income tax. You should be proud. I'm living the dream.

Of course, if the roads weren't here, I'd walk or ride my bike. It's not like I chose to build them. I think you're just suffering from class envy.

Anyway, this isn't a thread for you to spew your venom at the poor. This is a thread for sharing tips for stretching a dollar, keeping your peace of mind or entertaining yourself for free when you have no money. If you have nothing to contribute, you should probably jog on.

 

[oldbadger]

To be poor by choice is fine, provided that one is not a burden to the unwilling.

Hi........!

Would you like a 'poor law', with work houses? We had those once. Dickens wrote about them.

That's the problem, the poor cannot be lumped into a 'shan't work, won't work' group, for the privileged employed to snipe at. One thing I noticed when I was a kid, in the exclusive yacht clubs that my old-man belonged to, was that very rich would often gather together and boast to see who had the most clever ideas about evading revenues, or cheating the excise service.

Solicitors would often pay me to trace targets, and once they were comfortable with my presence I was amazed at how some of them boasted about how they false accounted to increase their costs, once they knew that a case was safely won. And the doctors who kept ghost patients for added income. Oh, it went on and on. Some senior police officers are having a difficult time just now over backhanders from the press, but that is nothing to how the old coppers used to boast of their perks back in the day.

So when I hear the working, especially rich-working, complaining about the costs of the poor, I smile....:yes:
I've worked all my life, so 'no agenda'.

 

[Alceste]

Hi........!

Would you like a 'poor law', with work houses? We had those once. Dickens wrote about them.

That's the problem, the poor cannot be lumped into a 'shan't work, won't work' group, for the privileged employed to snipe at. One thing I noticed when I was a kid, in the exclusive yacht clubs that my old-man belonged to, was that very rich would often gather together and boast to see who had the most clever ideas about evading revenues, or cheating the excise service.

Solicitors would often pay me to trace targets, and once they were comfortable with my presence I was amazed at how some of them boasted about how they false accounted to increase their costs, once they knew that a case was safely won. And the doctors who kept ghost patients for added income. Oh, it went on and on. Some senior police officers are having a difficult time just now over backhanders from the press, but that is nothing to how the old coppers used to boast of their perks back in the day.

So when I hear the working, especially rich-working, complaining about the costs of the poor, I smile....:yes:
I've worked all my life, so 'no agenda'.

Sure, there are freeloaders in every income bracket, not pulling their weight. I'd say a poor freeloader is much cheaper than a bank of America CEO, though. You could support 500 of us (poor people) in relative luxury for the cost of one of them.

 

[Caladan]

Sure, there are freeloaders in every income bracket, not pulling their weight. I'd say a poor freeloader is much cheaper than a bank of America CEO, though. You could support 500 of us (poor people) in relative luxury for the cost of one of them.

Ain't that the truth.

Anyway another economically efficient and simple thing to do is use an online exchange market, where you give something you don't need in exchange for something you do need. Sort of like a fair trade deal. Its interesting to see how things you haven't been using for a long time are actually sought after and vice versa.

And of course, if you are a regular beer drinker, brewing your own beer... tastes better, actually keeps the healthy nutritional benefits, makes you proud, and saves you a bit of cash.

 

[oldbadger]

Sure, there are freeloaders in every income bracket, not pulling their weight. I'd say a poor freeloader is much cheaper than a bank of America CEO, though. You could support 500 of us (poor people) in relative luxury for the cost of one of them.

There it is....... there you have it!

One of the wonderful aspects of the digital age is that so many of the hitherto respectable groups and professions have been caught stealing, deceiving, false accounting and bribing, in addition to evading payment of taxes.

And how (in the past) they shouted and stamped about people on benefits who did a bit of gardening, or fixed the odd flat roof. All naughty, yes, but as you say, a mere nothing by comparison with the big-time hypocrites.

We need to control it all, top to bottom.

 

[oldbadger]

Do you have boot-fairs in your country? Before ebay we loved going to the Sunday morning boot-fair with a list of things that we needed to obtain. It was fun as well as cheap shopping.

Here's one...... Deal! Most shops around here will deal. You find that television, or whatever in two competing shops and so you ask the first, 'We really like this! It's exactly what we are looking for.' (a pleasing intro to the request). 'But we have not got enough to buy it this time; is there anything that you can do to help us to buy it today?'

If they give you a 'No', that's ok, because you got a decision. So you go to the second shop and ask again. And if that shop says 'No', then you got a decision from there, so you leave it. And you wait until you find a shop that will do little deals, and stuff the rest. When we bought our new television Mrs B wanted a big one, and it was priced at £569. Mrs B asked the salesman to help us to buy it, and after a phonecall he let us buy it for £529 with a free three-year warranty.' Mrs B would have to work a whole afternoon to earn the £40 that we saved.

 

[oldbadger]

In England anybody is allowed to collect wild mushrooms from anywhere. Which means that you can walk through the fields in autumn and pick mushrooms (growing wild) as you see them. This is not theft, even if you are trespassing. Special Note:- I don't think I would try this in the USA!!

Where I live the Sea foreshore is owned by the Crown, and therefore it is free-ground for the collection of oysters, clams, mussels etc. I can collect a bucket of oysters in about thirty minutes, and if you boil them (like you would boil mussels) they are beautiful. I don't eat wild oysters raw (live) because they have not lived under ultra-violet light to kill any germs; boiling kills the germs, etc.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hi........!

Would you like a 'poor law', with work houses? We had those once. Dickens wrote about them.

That's the problem, the poor cannot be lumped into a 'shan't work, won't work' group, for the privileged employed to snipe at. One thing I noticed when I was a kid, in the exclusive yacht clubs that my old-man belonged to, was that very rich would often gather together and boast to see who had the most clever ideas about evading revenues, or cheating the excise service.

Solicitors would often pay me to trace targets, and once they were comfortable with my presence I was amazed at how some of them boasted about how they false accounted to increase their costs, once they knew that a case was safely won. And the doctors who kept ghost patients for added income. Oh, it went on and on. Some senior police officers are having a difficult time just now over backhanders from the press, but that is nothing to how the old coppers used to boast of their perks back in the day.

So when I hear the working, especially rich-working, complaining about the costs of the poor, I smile....:yes:
I've worked all my life, so 'no agenda'.

Goodness gracious! I addressed only an ethical problem for people who make a particular choice.
Nowhere did I even imply how great their numbers are, or even address public policy towards them.
Neither did I justify evil doings by some wealthy types. And you didn't even respond to what I actually
said....sniff, sniff...I'm ever so hurt! You old.....old....badger!

 

[Revoltingest]

Anyway, this isn't a thread for you to spew your venom at the poor.

Venom? Hah! Sounds like someone is over-reacting. I merely praised Wirey for his usefulness (as a high wage earning taxpayer)
to the poor who rely upon gov bennies. Tsk, tsk....you now whine about the discussion which you initiated & pursued?

But if tips you want, just ask a Scot:
- Go to self storage facilities & offer to clean out abandoned units for free. You can get tons'o good stuff for only
a little work. And managers avoid the expense of clean-up. (Btw, those "Storage Wars" shows are completely phony.)
- In university student housing areas, always check dumpsters when the students move out en masse.
I've found great furniture, clothing, etc in them.
- Find an elderly homeowner who can give you a room in exchange for handyman services.
One of my workers does this. (Cheapest guy I know.)
- Thrift shops.
- Walk instead of drive. Aside from saving on gas & maintenance, you can find things along the road.
I've found: pornography, bungee cords, gloves, scrap iron, firewood, coins.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You jest, but if an artist decides to pursue a profession which pays so little that other taxpayers must carry his load,
this does seem an unethical choice. Sure the artist might convince himself that he offers intangible value which justifies
this eleemosynary existence, but the taxpayer who has no choice in providing the largess, would likely disagree. To be
poor by choice is fine, provided that one is not a burden to the unwilling.

That's the point. I do jest at the insinuation that artists are a burden to society.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's the point. I do jest at the insinuation that artists are a burden to society.

I hope you aren't insinuating I made that insinuation!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I hope you aren't insinuating I made that insinuation!

The majority of artists are poor and do not make a living wage (we've had this conversation before about dancers, right?).

The vast majority are either underinsured or uninsured for health insurance because they can't afford it. Forget about life insurance, investments, or pension plans. Retirement is out of the question.

To say that artists choose a profession that pays so poorly that they must be a burden to society - and really the only artists that don't belong in the low classes are ones that hold university teaching positions, million-dollar business owners, and multi-million dollar entertainment actors and recording artists - is ignoring the fact that many artists do, in fact, contribute vastly to society.

But society values contemplative art much less than entertainment art. Because of the discrepancy, we have a society that reveres artists that offer blase, mundane, and repetitive works and pays them much more than artists that offer avenues to eureka moments individually and collectively. In return, we have a society that calls entertainment art the "valued" art, which can be mastered in the time that a hobby can be mastered.

Hence, why I'm with a few ragtag artists around the country looking to change the cultural perspective. And therefore, wind up with artists that can go to the doctor because they can afford to, or eat nutritious foods because they can afford to.....just yesterday I discovered one of our company dancers had nothing in her cabinet except a few packages of ramen noodles and was starving. I'm bringing her some fresh fruit tomorrow when she reports for rehearsal, but it broke my heart at the same time knowing this is common.

A friend and colleague of mine has been regularly singing with her small acoustic band covers of songs and her original works. Lately, she's been asked to sing at the Hard Rock in Los Angeles on a nightly basis for the next month....a great gig....and she's still barely scraping by.

I have heard many times that artists are starving for reasons that it's noble, or it's a sign of commitment, or that it's their choice and nobody should feel bad for them. People who say that have never lived that life. It isn't noble. It isn't a sign of commitment. And it isn't a stupid choice.

There is nothing wrong with looking to change the way things are. But I will jest, mock, and despise any insinuation that artists are poor because they are lazy, listless, and only looking to feed at the trough of other citizens who are assumed to contribute something better and more valuable to society.

IOW, if you weren't insinuating that, my bad. But if you were.....MOCK MOCK MOCK MOCK MOCK in your general direction!

 

[Revoltingest]

To say that artists choose a profession that pays so poorly that they must be a burden to society......

If this is a restatement of my claim, then it's inaccurately broad. I personally know many artists, all of whom make a
decent living....quite a few even as their sole profession. And those who cannot make a living at their art hold day
jobs to pay the bills. So I don't see artists in general as you portray above. I get the impression that I'm having my
posts reworked to infer something far different from the narrow issue of the ethical problem of a conscious decision
to pursue work which doesn't pay the bills, resulting in dependency upon others. I make no claim about how widespread
this is, nor even about the quality of the work.

....and really the only artists that don't belong in the low classes are ones that hold university teaching positions, million-dollar business owners, and multi-million dollar entertainment actors and recording artists - is ignoring the fact that many artists do, in fact, contribute vastly to society.
But society values contemplative art much less than entertainment art. Because of the discrepancy, we have a society that reveres artists that offer blase, mundane, and repetitive works and pays them much more than artists that offer avenues to eureka moments individually and collectively. In return, we have a society that calls entertainment art the "valued" art, which can be mastered in the time that a hobby can be mastered.
Hence, why I'm with a few ragtag artists around the country looking to change the cultural perspective. And therefore, wind up with artists that can go to the doctor because they can afford to, or eat nutritious foods because they can afford to.....just yesterday I discovered one of our company dancers had nothing in her cabinet except a few packages of ramen noodles and was starving. I'm bringing her some fresh fruit tomorrow when she reports for rehearsal, but it broke my heart at the same time knowing this is common.
A friend and colleague of mine has been regularly singing with her small acoustic band covers of songs and her original works. Lately, she's been asked to sing at the Hard Rock in Los Angeles on a nightly basis for the next month....a great gig....and she's still barely scraping by.
I have heard many times that artists are starving for reasons that it's noble, or it's a sign of commitment, or that it's their choice and nobody should feel bad for them. People who say that have never lived that life. It isn't noble. It isn't a sign of commitment. And it isn't a stupid choice.
There is nothing wrong with looking to change the way things are. But I will jest, mock, and despise any insinuation that artists are poor because they are lazy, listless, and only looking to feed at the trough of other citizens who are assumed to contribute something better and more valuable to society.
IOW, if you weren't insinuating that, my bad. But if you were.....MOCK MOCK MOCK MOCK MOCK in your general direction!

I haven't even mentioned degrees, teaching, universities specific fields, industriousness or how anyone should feel.
So tis your bad, toots!
It seems we're far afield from the OP & my posited ethical quandry, which touches nerves to greatly
for discussion. I'm trying to avoid pursuing it here. (Womins get so ditzy & over-emotional, eh?)

 

[Debater Slayer]

If this is a restatement of my claim, then it's inaccurately broad. I personally know many artists, all of whom make a decent living....quite a few even as their sole profession. I get the impression that I'm having my posts reworked to infer something far different from the narrow issue of the ethical problem of a conscious decision to pursue work which doesn't pay the bills, resulting in dependency upon others. I make no claim about how widespread this is, nor even about the quality of the work.

Just my 2 cents about this:

I don't think that it's unethical to pursue work that "doesn't pay the bills." Not everyone prefers to do the same work, and there are relatively low-paying jobs that are extremely important in general.

Also, if a portion of taxes goes toward helping people who have low-paying jobs that are important for society, then I don't see the problem in that. It seems to me that would be a good use of money, actually.

I won't go into further detail for now, as I realize that this is already a bit of a diversion from the OP of the thread. I'd be happy to discuss the subject in a separate thread, though.

 

[Alceste]

Ain't that the truth.

Anyway another economically efficient and simple thing to do is use an online exchange market, where you give something you don't need in exchange for something you do need. Sort of like a fair trade deal. Its interesting to see how things you haven't been using for a long time are actually sought after and vice versa.

And of course, if you are a regular beer drinker, brewing your own beer... tastes better, actually keeps the healthy nutritional benefits, makes you proud, and saves you a bit of cash.

There are actually a few "free stores" around here, particularly on the little islands where there aren't any mainstream businesses. the islanders just drop off whatever they don't need and pick up whatever they do need. It's crazy. Everything from books to washing machines can be found there.

The ladies around here do clothing swaps, too. Bring whatever you're sick of and leave with a whole new wardrobe. The unclaimed items go to the charity shop.

We make wine, and I'm looking at getting into beer too. Definitely saving a bundle on the weekends, and blackberry wine is delicious!

 

[Alceste]

Just my 2 cents about this:

I don't think that it's unethical to pursue work that "doesn't pay the bills." Not everyone prefers to do the same work, and there are relatively low-paying jobs that are extremely important in general.

Also, if a portion of taxes goes toward helping people who have low-paying jobs that are important for society, then I don't see the problem in that. It seems to me that would be a good use of money, actually.

I won't go into further detail for now, as I realize that this is already a bit of a diversion from the OP of the thread. I'd be happy to discuss the subject in a separate thread, though.

In Canada, people generally don't kvetch about paying taxes anyway because they understand they are getting pretty good value for their money and they generally don't despise the poor the way the right wing in the US seems to. We're pretty far to the left of them. Sociable, compassionate, and pragmatic.

So, if they're content and I'm content, there's no problem. Wirey has repeatedly stated he's fine with the tax bracket he's in, and I don't blame him. His taxes are high but he had enough pocket money lying around to buy his wife a Lexus for Christmas once in a while. We both have access to free health care if we need it. What's to complain about?

But yeah, not really relevant to this thread.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I use rags. No paper towels.

Toilet paper?

 

[Alceste]

Venom? Hah! Sounds like someone is over-reacting. I merely praised Wirey for his usefulness (as a high wage earning taxpayer)
to the poor who rely upon gov bennies. Tsk, tsk....you now whine about the discussion which you initiated & pursued?

But if tips you want, just ask a Scot:
- Go to self storage facilities & offer to clean out abandoned units for free. You can get tons'o good stuff for only
a little work. And managers avoid the expense of clean-up. (Btw, those "Storage Wars" shows are completely phony.)
- In university student housing areas, always check dumpsters when the students move out en masse.
I've found great furniture, clothing, etc in them.
- Find an elderly homeowner who can give you a room in exchange for handyman services.
One of my workers does this. (Cheapest guy I know.)
- Thrift shops.
- Walk instead of drive. Aside from saving on gas & maintenance, you can find things along the road.
I've found: pornography, bungee cords, gloves, scrap iron, firewood, coins.

We are taking advantage of one of your tips already. Housing in exchange for work around the house. It's a great deal, as it's allowed both of us the time and freedom to do what we love.

On the other hand, it can be a disaster. I've done it before and was treated like a slave. Then when I told the guy he either had to pay me or stick to the agreed upon 10 hours a week of child care he kicked me out.

Also, old people are not great room-mates, so you need a lot of patience and compassion.