How to convert a Hindu

[Vinayaka]

Dear Sir,
The wolf wears sheep clothing because it wants to get the sheep.

Precisely. I don't doubt that in your mind, you have good intentions, BTW. But Ram Swarup, amongst others took Father Bede Griffiths to task some 20 years back, and it no doubt his (Griffiths) continues on by people like you. Conversion is conversion, no matter how you call it, and subtle proseltysing will continue despite protests by the likes of myself, who hate to see the dismantling and universalising of our faith. No doubt you will get far more sympathy from the likes of the Ramakrishna Mission, whose very universalist leanings don't speak for mainstream Hinduism.

What most of us Hindus would like to see is for Christians to cease and desist their activities in India, period. If you want to help, give aid through non-religious groups like Doctors without Borders. We Hindus have survived for thousands of years without Christ and that will easily continue.

The gall of someone to come on an anti-conversion thread and continue to try to convert amazes me though.

 

[Vinayaka]

1. To hold that there is only one God or one Truth or one absolute Reality.
2. To respect all sacred scriptures, all religions and belief systems as a gift of God to humanity,
3. To hold that there is only one way to God which is to renounce or to expand our individual ego and collective ego
4. To affirm the dignity of human beings
5. To abstain from all religious conversions.
6. To consider religious boundaries as functional boundaries
7. To love one’s religion sincerely
8. To realize the limitations of ones’ religion.
9. To look at belief structures as nests
10. To work together for the liberation of human beings
11. . To evaluate the precepts of one’s religion in the mirror of human dignity
12. To recognize that human beings are more important than religions

Now I do feel obligated to go through these points one by one so show the discrepancy between a Christian's view, and a Hindu view.
1. I believe in many Gods, but one absolute reality, called Parasivam.
2. I don't respect scriptures that condone violence. That would include the Christian Bible, as well as several Hindu Puranas. They are myth.
3. God is inside, the way to him is through meditation, or other Hindu practices like intense bhakti through temple worship. It has to do with becoming ego-free.
4. The destiny of humanity is merging with Siva, Self-realisation, and ultimately moksha.
5. Not only abstain from religious conversion, but also any forms of proseltysing, or trying to dilute another's faith. Hindus have never sought converts.
6. I have no idea what this means.
7. That we do.
8. There is no limit to the Hindu God. God is infinite. Our religion gives us a defined method or path to liberation from samsara, and ultimate merger with God.
9. Belief structures are groups of like-minded individuals.
10. There is no need to work together. Liberation from samsara is the ultimate destiny of all souls, and inhabiting physical bodies is the method upon which sparks of Siva undergo before re-merger happens.
11. Hinds live dignified lives full of love for family community etc. already.
12. Humans are all entitled to be treated with respect and dignity. One of the greatest insults one can do is to attempt to change the views of another human being, especially when those views are already dharmic in nature. It's none of your business.

 

[Ashoka]

What most of us Hindus would like to see is for Christians to cease and desist their activities in India, period. If you want to help, give aid through non-religious groups like Doctors without Borders. We Hindus have survived for thousands of years without Christ and that will easily continue.

Well said. Jai Hind!

 

[Aum_425]

Christians can do whatever they want. Christ, and his message of unconditional Love for all, will live on.

Reminds me of what Ghandi said "I like your Christ but not your Christians"

Still, that link is hilarious

Jai Maa!

 

[Windwalker]

Dear Sir,
The wolf wears sheep clothing because it wants to get the sheep. if there is no hungry wolf but only a sheep then it does not need to wear sheep' clothing. When the motive for conversion is not there then it is sharing the truth, learning to listen and to dialogue. It is possible that some people had these experiences in the past. But today a new thinking is emerging. We need not react from the old suspicions but look at the things with open mind and open heart. I had written another book titled Integral Dynamic Monotheism:a meeting point between Vedic Vision and the Vision of Christ. Swami Veetamohnanda of Ramakrishan Mission has written a generous Foreword to it. If the book was a wolf in sheep's clothing, certainly the learned swami would have found it. He has invited me to his center in France in July to give a talk on this subject. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called children of God.

Hello. A few things got my attention in your couple posts in this thread and through the indulgence of others in this thread may I ask some questions? First your book uses the title Integral and Dynamic in it, which immediately struck me being well-versed and appreciative of Ken Wilber and the like in a post-postmodern or Integral framework.

Integral is in fact not a postmodernist multiculturalism which most traditions tend to chaff against, which is what I saw in a few responses to what you laid out. Multiculturalism, or a badly applied inter-spiritual dialog comes off as saying we are all the same thing and it tends to wash out the distinct qualities and benefits of ones religious lineage. That's what I hear people object to. Or worse, it too is used as an inroads to "dialog", in order to subtly get their "message of Christ" into other religions. I agree with those who chaff against that, and their reasons for that. But being someone who knows integral philosophy well, I think this is not what you are saying, though I understand how those may hear it as another form of multiculturalism.

I think what you are saying, as I might myself, is the old saying that religions are like fingers pointing to the moon, but not the moon itself. That it is like the quote I have in my signature line below from the Zen poet of the 14th century that at the peak of the mountain we all gaze at the single bright moon. People all too often see their path up the side of the mountain as the only true path, that God approves of this path because they experience the moon shining on them as they walk along this path. What happens for a lot of people is they mistake the path for the moon itself, and when they see others on their paths they feel the need to get them over onto their path where they experience the light of the moon. They do so because that path 'over there' that others are on seems so foreign to them, they have not frame of reference to know that they too experience that same light as well. And so they send missionaries over to get them to "see the light". Whereas in reality, they are admitting to everyone that they are stuck in their limited perceptions of others, and not seeing it from the perspective of the moon.

Each path needs to be unique. They are worn up the side of the mountain for those people as they are because the terrain is unique to that region. To try to "merge" paths is in effect to take a bulldozer and level the ground, scaring the side of the mountain and destroying its natural features. As such, it's no longer someone's home. Its a wash, a sort of industrialized modernization of the natural landscape. That is what multiculturalism does.

Integral is not this, as I see it. In the simplest terms it preserves, and supports the preservation of the natural landscapes, not once trying to level the terrain so we can share something in common. It recognizes we are one, but not at the expense of diversity. I guess, I'd be interested in your thoughts to what I addressed here.

 

[Vinayaka]

Christians can do whatever they want.
Reminds me of what Ghandi said "I like your Christ but not your Christians"

Still, that link is hilarious

Jai Maa!

And they do, unless stopped by governments, who see the danger in aggressive proseltysing. In this case, however, I'm standing up to the non-aggressive type as well, who use deceptive tactics like integrating Christ into Hinduism. In many ways that's far more dangerous to the breakdown of Indian Society just because it is so subtle. Here is another link to what we're dealing with here: http://www.amazon.com/John-Martin-Sahajananda/e/B0034OF79S

And, just as a point of advice, you will get somewhat more respect amongst Indian Hindus if you learn how to spell Gandhi. He is a hero to the Indian, and no Indian will take you seriously.

 

[Ashoka]

It would be best if Christians just minded their own business and left those who practice another faith alone.

Namaskar.

 

[Sumit]

And they do, unless stopped by governments, who see the danger in aggressive proseltysing. In this case, however, I'm standing up to the non-aggressive type as well, who use deceptive tactics like integrating Christ into Hinduism. In many ways that's far more dangerous to the breakdown of Indian Society just because it is so subtle.

Present Indian gov under supervision of Sonia Gandhi wants to convert India into a christian nation. More than 70% funds of Hindu temples goes to Gov which is used for funding New churches and Convent schools. 10 years ago there was no christian in my city but now you can find many. Many hindus convert due to their greed. Missionaries constructed one of the biggest church of India here which almost took 12-14 years in completion and now it's their new conversion centre. Also 1 year ago I found an online website which was offering 5000 Rs (100 dollars approx) to Hindus for converting. Many states of India are now fully converted and now missionaries are focusing on Northern States. They are presenting Jesus here as a Hindu Deity with a slogan "Jai Yeshu" and organizing christian kirtans . A person whose one friend converted to Christianity told me that after conversion christian forced his friend to remove all idols of Hindu deities from his home.

 

[Vinayaka]

Present Indian gov under supervision of Sonia Gandhi wants to convert India into a christian nation. More than 70% funds of Hindu temples goes to Gov which is used for funding New churches and Convent schools. 10 years ago there was no christian in my city but now you can find many. Many hindus convert due to their greed. Missionaries constructed one of the biggest church of India here which almost took 12-14 years in completion and now it's their new conversion centre. Also 1 year ago I found an online website which was offering 5000 Rs (100 dollars approx) to Hindus for converting. Many states of India are now fully converted and now missionaries are focusing on Northern States. They are presenting Jesus here as a Hindu Deity with a slogan "Jai Yeshu" and organizing christian kirtans . A person whose one friend converted to Christianity told me that after conversion christian forced his friend to remove all idols of Hindu deities from his home.

As weird as all this sounds, it's so very true. Please vote for any candidate who will stand up to this nonsense. He who has the biggest stick wins, and in this case the stick is cash, mostly from the west. It truly saddens me, as Hinduism has to be one of the most precious, non-violent, loving faiths on the planet. But just like many other peaceful faiths before it, it may be dismantled. I sure hope not. At least here in the west thee is a subtle shift to the opposite.

 

[Maya3]

John Martin,

Why are you participating in this thread? What did you think when you saw the headline? Did you think you could offer some advice in how to convert us?
Why else would you as a Christian be interested in a thread called: "How to convert a Hindu?"

I am a Christian and I realize that today it is the wayof inter-religious dialogue and not conversions. Where there is desire to expand one's boundary and increase one's members there is an inherent violence.One cannot become an instrument of peace. Recently I published a book titled 'Mission Without Conversion:Becoming Instruments of peace'. Published by ISPCK, New Delhi, India. There is a section called Guidelines for Inter-religious Living. I thought it may be useful to share:
Guidelines for Inter-Religious Living

Still you call it mission, and it is published by a Christian missionary group.
Also why are you interested in increasing your membership?
True Interfaith should not want that. It would mean that the interfaith community failed if people leave their own religion to join yours. Then it is no longer an interfaith group.

1. To hold that there is only one God or one Truth or one absolute Reality. This Reality is greater than our belief systems. It is like the infinite space. Belief systems are conditioned truths. They are like space within four walls and roof. We all need to grow from the conditioned truth to the unconditioned truth. Just as there is a door to every house there should a door in every conditioned truth that connects one to the unconditioned truth.

Sure, I agree with this. But there already is a door for this truth in each religion. There is no need to tell people what to do.

2. To respect all sacred scriptures, all religions and belief systems as a gift of God to humanity, even -though they are all historically conditioned and have their limitations. They should be considered as the common human heritage from which each tradition can learn and enrich itself in the understanding of Truth and divine-human relationship.

We should absolutely respect all religions. But all religions are man made.

3. To hold that there is only one way to God which is to renounce or to expand our individual ego and collective ego into the universal consciousness of our image and likeness of God and finally oneness with God. The purpose of every religion is to help human beings to do that.

Maybe, I don't know what every religion says. But it is probably mostly along these lines. So then there is no reason to have a Christian mission.

4. To affirm the dignity of human beings that they are manifested in the image and likeness of God and they have the possibility to grow beyond belief structures.

It's not only humans.

5. To abstain from all religious conversions. Religions should focus on the spiritual growth of their followers and facilitate the conversions from the collective consciousness to the universal consciousness, from the conditioned truth to the unconditioned truth. Conversions from one religion to another religion should be avoided. Religions should embrace both the conditioned truth and the unconditioned truth so that they can be like bridges for the people to cross from the conditioned truth to the unconditioned truth. Religions should become RELIGION. RELIGION connects both conditioned truth (religions) and the unconditioned Truth, God.

This is up to the religious practitioners. We cannot tell anyone what their religion should do for them.

6. To consider religious boundaries as functional boundaries and not as essential boundaries. If religious boundaries are seen as essential the result would be the possibility of violence. Where there is an essential boundary there is a need for protection, desire for expansion or propagation. Where there is this desire there is a potential for violence and conflict. Instead of identifying with a religion one should make it as a way. For example instead of saying ‘I am Christian’ I prefer to say ‘ I follow the path of Christ to God’. If I take Air India from Chennai to London, I do not say ‘I am Air India’ but I say, ‘I flew by Air India’. Making religious labels as functional labels helps to remove violence in the world.

I agree with this and I like your airplane analogy.
This is a good example of why it is wrong to proselytize. Each person takes a different "airplane" so there is no reason to tell people to take another.

7. To love one’s religion sincerely and to grow in the deeper understanding of one’s religion and live the precepts of one’s religion authentically. This will help one to realize that others also love their religions, and respect others’ religions.

Very important.

8. To realize the limitations of ones’ religion. Every religion is conditioned in time and space and there will be limitations in its understanding of the divine will. Only this realization will prepare one to have genuine dialogue with other religions.

Exactly. Religions are man made, they are just our individual attempt to understand.

9. To look at belief structures as nests in which human beings are born, protected, nourished and given security until they are ready to move into the freedom of the universal consciousness. Religions should help human beings to grow into God and not to hold them to themselves.

You could look at it like that. But when this is written by a christian as yourself who have published a book by a missionary organization. I wonder if you think that once people have grown in their nests they should join Christianity?

10. To work together for the liberation of human beings from all oppressed structures: religious, political, social, economic and ecological.

What do you mean with liberation?

11. . To evaluate the precepts of one’s religion in the mirror of human dignity and equality of the sexes and according to the criteria of radical love of God and radical love of neighbor

This sounds like one of the ways you gear people away from their own religion into your christian one.

12. To recognize that human beings are more important than religions and that religions should serve human beings to realize their full potentiality. Religions are only means and not the end or goal. God or Truth or Reality is the end or the goal of our spiritual journey.
These suggestions are not exhaustive. Everyone can contribute some other aspects that can be useful for inter-religious living.

If this is truly as a way to have an interfaith dialogue without the intent to get people over to your "side" then it is fine.

I personally don't think it matters what religion you practice. I'm more universalist than many Hindus. But again since you came in here as a Christian with this list to a "How to convert a Hindu" thread, I'm a little unsure of your intentions honestly.

Maya

 

[vistascan]

Present Indian gov under supervision of Sonia Gandhi wants to convert India into a christian nation. More than 70% funds of Hindu temples goes to Gov which is used for funding New churches and Convent schools. 10 years ago there was no christian in my city but now you can find many. Many hindus convert due to their greed. Missionaries constructed one of the biggest church of India here which almost took 12-14 years in completion and now it's their new conversion centre. Also 1 year ago I found an online website which was offering 5000 Rs (100 dollars approx) to Hindus for converting. Many states of India are now fully converted and now missionaries are focusing on Northern States. They are presenting Jesus here as a Hindu Deity with a slogan "Jai Yeshu" and organizing christian kirtans . A person whose one friend converted to Christianity told me that after conversion christian forced his friend to remove all idols of Hindu deities from his home.

This seems dubious. Do have some actual source for this? Also, what do you mean by "fully converted?"

 

[Sumit]

This seems dubious. Do have some actual source for this?

Crusade Watch, Religious Conversion Watch, Evangelism watch - India - State wise Christian population - 2000 AD

This is statics of 2001 and now the conditions are much worst. Some states have more than 90-95% population of Christians. No doubt if this continues than India will go towards civil war between Hindus, muslims and Christians.

Also, what do you mean by "fully converted?"

Giving us Hinduism and accepting Christianity.

 

[Vinayaka]

This seems dubious. Do have some actual source for this? Also, what do you mean by "fully converted?"

if you've ever travelled in India, you'd see it first hand. As an example, when I was in Tamil Nadu, there was a huge hospital across from my hotel. The cross on the top was surely the cost equivalent of at least another 10 beds. Large crosses dot the landscape everywhere. So when there are hospitals and schools, there is an inordinate amount of advertising done about it. Most Hindus, on the other hand, just give anonymously. The fact that the government controls the money given to temples is well documented. So many highly recommend that rather than put money in the hundis, its far better of fto give it to the priests, who need it more, just to supplement their meager government allowance.

But the situation does vary widely from state to state, as like in the USA, states do have a lot of autonomy, and some enforce much stronger anti-conversion laws.

 

[Vinayaka]

John Martin,

Why are you participating in this thread? What did you think when you saw the headline? Did you think you could offer some advice in how to convert us?
Why else would you as a Christian be interested in a thread called: "How to convert a Hindu?"

Thank you for all the effort put into an elaborate response. I should also point out that JM is not only a Christian, but a Catholic Benedictine monk living in India, which makes the participation here even more preposterous.

 

[Maya3]

Thank you for all the effort put into an elaborate response. I should also point out that JM is not only a Christian, but a Catholic Benedictine monk living in India, which makes the participation here even more preposterous.

You are welcome.

I'd be interested in what he has to say if he responds. Especially since he is a Catholic monk.

Maya

 

[vistascan]

So I must ask, do you all think anything can be done about this, or is it a lost case?

 

[Sumit]

or is it a lost case?

Almost.
Hindus are not ready to stand against it, they neither love their culture anymore nor they know about it. If you ask Indian teenagers "What are Upanishads", answer will be "story books same as panchtantra". If you ask "What are Vedas" answer will be "We Don't know". All they want is to lead a luxurious life. I have met some Hindus who even support beef.
Sometime it makes me very sad.

 

[Vinayaka]

So I must ask, do you all think anything can be done about this, or is it a lost case?

I think there is a 'let's just get out of this poverty cycle" mind flow, and it makes total sense to me. Materialism may well be a bigger threat than any faith. Here in the west most of us have had enough experience with materialism to know it doesn't really bring happiness either. But in India? Well, the cultures and political trends are so very very different than here. One thing I should clarify, though, and that's that in many places still, when someone says they're Christian, they mean Catholic. The Catholic church has a had a much longer 'run' in India that any other group, but that's changing these days, with groups like the evangelicals and Mormons moving in too.

 

[Windwalker]

I think there is a 'let's just get out of this poverty cycle" mind flow, and it makes total sense to me. Materialism may well be a bigger threat than any faith. Here in the west most of us have had enough experience with materialism to know it doesn't really bring happiness either. But in India? Well, the cultures and political trends are so very very different than here. One thing I should clarify, though, and that's that in many places still, when someone says they're Christian, they mean Catholic. The Catholic church has a had a much longer 'run' in India that any other group, but that's changing these days, with groups like the evangelicals and Mormons moving in too.

I think what you say probably plays a large part behind the appeal of these evangelical groups moving in, and in their displacing the traditional Christian groups as well. Materialism. Consumerism, especially here in the West is the new religion, or perhaps a better thing to call it would be a substitute spirituality. Christian groups of the evangelical kind market themselves to this mentality as people here shop around for a religion. They cater to things people are looking for such as day-care centers for their kids, spiffy fun music and activities, networking for professionals, and all of that business. You see what I mean?

So what you say about the kids not knowing their own scriptures, the Upanishads, the Vedas, and so forth, this really isn't different that those here in the West whom these churches prey upon, selling anything from popular youth groups, to "name it and claim it" churches that preach if you have enough faith in God, He will reward you with that super-sized SUV and big home in the suburbs you dream of. This is not spirituality, but a substitute for it with the name "God" attached to it, like some brand label, sanctioning it like calling some unhealthy food product "low fat", as though that makes the fact the sugar is it's number one ingredient. Calling it "religion" does not make it healthy spiritually.

So that's what it sounds like you are up against as well. I think it's a global problem in a growing global economy. Traditional religions who are the keepers of the sacred truths (even if they average person doesn't access them), are being lost to this consumerist, commercialize religious moment. They prey like snake-oil salesmen, peddling their empty wares with a promise to heal with what they themselves do not possess.

Sorry for being so harsh like this, but I find this so tragic and insidious.

 

[Vinayaka]

Sorry for being so harsh like this, but I find this so tragic and insidious.

Sometimes harsh is what it takes, so no problem. Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade. Lots of people probably found me harsh in all this too. Ultimately we can only take care of ourselves, and not buy into any of this stuff on a personal level. I truly appreciate your support, BTW.