How to disprove God to a believer? (no really)...

[Terrywoodenpic]

Why would you want to try to disprove God to a believer. ?
It would seem a very unrewarding and unkind thing to attempt.
And no benefit to anyone.

 

[psychoslice]

Why would you want to try to disprove God to a believer. ?
It would seem a very unrewarding and unkind thing to attempt.
And no benefit to anyone.

But don't the believer try to convert the non believer ?, you cannot just have it your way.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

But don't the believer try to convert the non believer ?, you cannot just have it your way.

So you want people to not believe in god out of spite.

Seems like a healthy and rewarding perspective.

 

[temple]

You are claiming

bing bang is false

All prophets and their graves are false

Adam first person in earth is false

All physics who convert are false

Miracles which mentioned in holly book and happened are false

Exist of devil which proved by wizards are false

Soul which was proven by scientist false

Signs of judgment days minor which all happened are false

Major signs of judgement day which started to happen now are false?

And so on and so forth!

So wired

 

[psychoslice]

So you want people to not believe in god out of spite.

Seems like a healthy and rewarding perspective.

Of course not out of spite, I was just making a point, now do you understand?

 

[Windwalker]

Why would you want to try to disprove God to a believer. ?

It's just a continuation of their evangelism they practiced as a fundamentalist Christian. "Must have everyone think like me to validate my new beliefs!"

It would seem a very unrewarding and unkind thing to attempt.
And no benefit to anyone.

Yes, it's an illusion that they'll feel any more secure in their beliefs by getting you to agree with them. That insecurity is what drives the whole thing, that lack of faith being that in God or in No-God.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Why would you want to try to disprove God to a believer. ?
It would seem a very unrewarding and unkind thing to attempt.
And no benefit to anyone.

Does proving that Allah does not exist to a Muslim suicide bomber not benefit society?

 

[idea]

It's just a continuation of their evangelism they practiced as a fundamentalist Christian. "Must have everyone think like me to validate my new beliefs!"


Yes, it's an illusion that they'll feel any more secure in their beliefs by getting you to agree with them. That insecurity is what drives the whole thing, that lack of faith being that in God or in No-God.

It's not about security, it's about unity - that's the whole point of Christianity, to be united with one heart, and one mind - see one another face to face... disagreement is being disconnected - the opposite of love.

 

[idea]

Does proving that Allah does not exist to a Muslim suicide bomber not benefit society?

The atheist communist regime is responsible for the most murders in history, so if it's the protection of life that you're after, perhaps you should be focusing on those who do not yet hold life to be a sacred gift.

 

[s2a]

No need to be bashful speak your mind. If there is some questions or comments on it please don't hold back I don't get offended.

That would almost seem genuine, except, you know...
the above

Then you don't believe? The whole point of the above post was to bring into question the basis of "faith". Is it something you are blessed with or something instilled within you as a child? Are there certain mechanisms that cause a predisposition to being an atheist vs a theist? I don't know.

You may have inadvertently misread or willfully misrepresented my initial post in this thread then, which was my own to put forth… just saying… (see post #1 again
,if you might).

You continued...

“But the esoteric knowledge of god doesn't seem to be a good excuse when looked at from a psychological standpoint.’

I’ll second that… oh wait, I already have…

Superstitious beliefs are in the same vein. I don't have all the answers but if I were to guess I would guess that superstitious beliefs and theological beliefs stem from teh same place. If someone made a cause/effect explination based off of personal observations (as much superstition and theological concepts most likely were) then it would be misinformation and jumping to conclusions.

Indeed, human nature front and center...warts and all...

Once science has illuminated this mistake it would be illogical to cling to it further. But the human psyche is resistent to change and prone to stubborn defense of our original notion.

Is that an excuse, remonstrance, or just kinda sad?

Are you of the position that no one is beyond simple answers of further examinations/experiments... or complete disproofs?

 

[s2a]

I honestly don't see what this is necessary. Is there some reason why we should consider doing this?

To be fair to you, this IS a forum of debate

This may not be where you wish to be in this topic?

If you can provide evidence that nobody has a "soul", that would be significant.

Not really my claim to disprove ya know? The burden of proof always remains upon the claimant first...

that said...
If you could provide solid scientific evidence of that claim being strictly derived solely absent of faith based beliefs, that might be equally compelling, and I’m listening…

If you could for example prove that my consciousness is "unique" ONLY due to the specific combination of biology and experiences that make up my "self", then you will have convinced me that there is no god.

You are unique. I win?

If you can conclusively prove that we are all merely the sum of are parts - nothing more, and that any genetically identical person would have exactly the same "consciousness", have exactly the same personality and make exactly the same choices as their genetic twin if they had lived life in their shoes, you will have convinced me that there is no god.

If you choose, by belief and rational will, that you are akin, alike, or mirror many others, then I’m not the guy to seek out to alter that belief. I am NOT an evangelist ya know.

Just noting the ironic nature of your two paragraphs as a part of your more compelling argument…

We are all unique… and then ALL THE SAME… which then proves…um… we are ummmm… clarity please?

Unlikely. In fact, in my opinion the opposite is true. I would have said that if you could convince me that the universe wasn't finely tuned for to make life possible, that might convince me that there was no god.

Many conflate coincidence with either purpose or causal effect to a purposed end.

They are typically, inexorably, demonstrably...wrong… but again, you were saying...

Unfortunately, the confirmed existence of dark energy as the dominant component of the universe essentially rules out that argument.

Oh? Well that settles that once and for all then. Shall we conference call all the multitudes that vainly continue on in that search to simply stop what they are doing to effect their immediate confessions/conversions ASAP?

I also might have suggested that evidence that the universe did not have a transcendent, singularity beginning might also be somewhat convincing that there is no god. But since the Big Bang Theory is generally considered to be the principle theory of universal origins, I'd have to say that this is a dead end as well.

Perhaps, and I tend to side with what is knowable vs. whatever may be dogma or religious dictate... I remain the skeptic, and still listening.

As it now appears within the realm of science to establish trust/reliability of reason that we seem pointed, and not upon piety or faith alone…

…yet do bear in mind that only one avenue of exploration will consider an alternative cause/effect explanation that makes sense and fits all available evidences.

The other, never can/will not.

Blame the human condition for skepticism, doubt, inquiry, discovery, revelation, and unbounded curiosity.

Don’t recall many claimed or assigned deities promoting any of there qualities of late though

PS. Note that my OP does NOT seek nor invite testaments or claims of anyone's piety, at all.

I offered sincere and earnest input as to what would, in effect, make me a "true believer" If you wish to address that subject... I"m listening

 

[s2a]

You seem to have a problem with me stating that I've never met god. Not sure why.

I do not. I would never presume to alter whatever you believe as "true".

Really.

That is obvious. Probably why I called it a guess. So... why is that a problem for you? Am I supposed to know? Do you know?

What I prefer is that you directly address the OP. This is not a "piety test"

Whatever you insist upon as "truth" is not at issue here... ie., it's not about "you" ")

"I find it rather odd that an atheist has such a specific idea of what God is. "

I find it perplexing is that is all that you can divine (no pun) from the OP...

 

[s2a]

Anyone who asks for proof of anything (be it religious, political, scientific, or liberal beliefs) are dualists... Might I suggest to all of the dualists out there, that there are higher thinking patterns to pursue? ...


William G. Perry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

does anyone know what it means to use relativist epistemologies? If you do not yet know, you need to learn

Take that all you ignorant people!

OZ, the Great and Powerful, has spoken!

heh

 

[s2a]

Why would you want to try to disprove God to a believer. ?
It would seem a very unrewarding and unkind thing to attempt.
And no benefit to anyone.

Agreed.

How nice the OP doesn't even go there...

 

[s2a]

You are claiming

bing bang is false

All prophets and their graves are false

Adam first person in earth is false

All physics who convert are false

Miracles which mentioned in holly book and happened are false

Exist of devil which proved by wizards are false

Soul which was proven by scientist false

Signs of judgment days minor which all happened are false

Major signs of judgement day which started to happen now are false?

And so on and so forth!

So wired

Oh my.

Ok, pretty much as presented....in pointed and chronological answer...

No

Kinda pretty much, yep

Oh yeah, feeling confidently certain on that one

"Physics"?
You mean "psychics", or "physicists"? I'm fairly convinced "psychics" all believe they sell a "skill" to any that choose to "believe"...
"Physicists" always await better evidences...

Yep.

Have not heard that "wizards" proved Satan true... hmmm

Would enjoy reading some peer-reviewed and evidential/authenticated "proof" of Satan, "scientifically" speaking...

Difficult to confirm of deny "signs" of "the end" that has yet to occur...

as you would say... "And so on and so forth.."

 

[Sha'irullah]

The atheist communist regime is responsible for the most murders in history, so if it's the protection of life that you're after, perhaps you should be focusing on those who do not yet hold life to be a sacred gift.

Communists espoused Atheism as religion was more violent. Also there is no collective Communist regime, it all varies and I should know as I am a Communist.

Also I never brought into factor whether or not atheists or theists are violent. I just stated that it is good to convince people that there is no god when it is beneficial.


Also no Communist killed in the name of atheism.....nobody has significantly.
But I cannot say the same for god. The killings known by Communist are political so do not get them confused.

Also what you call Communism is actually authoritarianism as a dictatorship is incompatible with the dream of Communism. I put emphasis on dream.
Stalin is a perfect example of this. Neither Communism or Atheism have any relation except that when in a more secular country peace is easy to manage.

You live int he USA no doubt which is proof of this as we left England to achieve peace from religion and abandoned the witch hunts and crusades.
Religions lead to theocracies and by default theocracies have never been peaceful. It is an Us VS Them attitude while a Communist society by default is to have no distinction between class, gender, race or religion. Sadly though religion always interferes and the fact Communists spent their time slaughtering the religious is proof of this.

Just like France. If I was to establish a social and political peace I would rid the nation of religion and reestablish The Cult of the Supreme Being in place of it.

Learn some basic facts about history kiddo.

 

[s2a]

Communists espoused Atheism as religion was more violent. Also there is no collective Communist regime, it all varies and I should know as I am a Communist.

Also I never brought into factor whether or not atheists or theists are violent. I just stated that it is good to convince people that there is no god when it is beneficial.


Also no Communist killed in the name of atheism.....nobody has significantly.
But I cannot say the same for god. The killings known by Communist are political so do not get them confused.

Also what you call Communism is actually authoritarianism as a dictatorship is incompatible with the dream of Communism. I put emphasis on dream.
Stalin is a perfect example of this. Neither Communism or Atheism have any relation except that when in a more secular country peace is easy to manage.

You live int he USA no doubt which is proof of this as we left England to achieve peace from religion and abandoned the witch hunts and crusades.
Religions lead to theocracies and by default theocracies have never been peaceful. It is an Us VS Them attitude while a Communist society by default is to have no distinction between class, gender, race or religion. Sadly though religion always interferes and the fact Communists spent their time slaughtering the religious is proof of this.

Just like France. If I was to establish a social and political peace I would rid the nation of religion and reestablish The Cult of the Supreme Being in place of it.

Learn some basic facts about history kiddo.

Facts and evidence always have a liberal bias you know

 

[Sha'irullah]

Facts and evidence always have a liberal bias you know

Sadly what you said is true .
I just wish that more people would spend time knowing how easily refutable certain arguments are. I have rarely encountered an argument that involved me bringing out factual statistics and data.

I tend to loose track of this as it is rarely used considering that most argument can be shot down with common sense alone. Forums are a mad world indeed

 

[s2a]

Sadly what you said is true .
I just wish that more people would spend time knowing how easily refutable certain arguments are. I have rarely encountered an argument that involved me bringing out factual statistics and data.

I tend to loose track of this as it is rarely used considering that most argument can be shot down with common sense alone. Forums are a mad world indeed

TY for being a part...

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You are claiming

bing bang is false It is true

All prophets and their graves are false some are doubtful or unproven

Adam first person in earth is false certainly mythical
All physics who convert are false (I do not understand this one)

Miracles which mentioned in holly book and happened are false ( most are probably fable)

Exist of devil which proved by wizards are false (wizadry has nothing to do with devil)

Soul which was proven by scientist false ( soul has never been proven)

Signs of judgment days minor which all happened are false ( theere are no proven signs)

Major signs of judgement day which started to happen now are false? ( as above)

And so on and so forth! If your list is your best then these are also false

So wired

As a believer I would agree that the above are untrue or unproven