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How to interprete Scriptures (Bible or Quran)

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Why then did the Priests of the Jewish faith want to kill Lazarus?
Because, Jesus had raised Him from Spiritual Death and Unbelief, to the life of Faith and thus he became a follower of Jesus. So, Now Lazarus had become a Believer and would also spread the teachings of Jesus and that Messiah had come and make others also believe. So they said let's kill Lazarus, so, to stop increasing the number of followers of Jesus.

Only James and John saw Jesus with them. No one else went with him. These were Apostles and had the closeness to Jesus and God the Father to see them speaking with Jesus.

But my question is, if indeed Elijah had come physically, then why Elijah did not show Himself to Jews who were expecting Elijah before the Day of Messiah? (according to Jewish Scriptures)

Elijah yes as he was taken up in the chariot. Moses? You'd have to ask a church taught Christian. My learning is strictly Biblical and the appearance with Elijah is the only indication that Moses was taken up alive also in all the pages of the Bible.

Taken up is a an expression that means, He died, and His soul (spiritual body) ascended to the spiritual world of God.

If you are talking of the appearance of Jesus to Thomas and the other Apostles, I'm back to: spirit is energy, energy can take physical form. God can do that with the spirits that are His servants.

How do we know spirit is energy?
Is there anything in the Scriptures that says spirit is energy? I am not sure where this idea came from.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The Sun I take to be God the Father, the Moon - Jesus, and the stars all those who believe including the Apostles and Prophets and those with tongues and healers and everybody else as each star has a glory all its(sp) own.


"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." 1. Cor. 15:41-42


Well, the Scriptures calls Jesus "The Sun":

"As the men watched, Jesus' appearance was transformed so that his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light." Matt. 17:2

Now since the verse is saying resurrection of dead is like, the glory of sun, moon and stars. It is not possible that God the father had ever been dead and resurrected. But Jesus was a new Moses that was Resurrected again. just as John was a new Elijah that was resurrected again, and like the 12 followers of Moses who were resurrected as 12 apostles of Christ.

And in fact scriptures says similar thing about Moses:

"When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD." Exodus 34:29


So, the Moment that Jesus was raised, is symbolized as the Moment His face became bright as the Sun. And that is like the Resurrection of Dead according to Scriptures. So, Like I said before, there are two instances when it is said Christ is raised from the Dead. One is the moment He was raised to Proclaim the Word of God, and the other time is after His Crucifixion.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
InvestigateTruth said:
"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." 1. Cor. 15:41-42


Well, the Scriptures calls Jesus "The Sun":

"As the men watched, Jesus' appearance was transformed so that his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light." Matt. 17:2

Now since the verse is saying resurrection of dead is like, the glory of sun, moon and stars. It is not possible that God the father had ever been dead and resurrected. But Jesus was a new Moses that was Resurrected again. just as John was a new Elijah that was resurrected again, and like the 12 followers of Moses who were resurrected as 12 apostles of Christ.

This is the reason why I sometime dislike symbols in religions so much.

Too much what-if interpretations that could make a person's head spin more than 360-degree.
 

Avoice

Active Member
"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." 1. Cor. 15:41-42


Well, the Scriptures calls Jesus "The Sun":

"As the men watched, Jesus' appearance was transformed so that his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light." Matt. 17:2

Now since the verse is saying resurrection of dead is like, the glory of sun, moon and stars. It is not possible that God the father had ever been dead and resurrected. But Jesus was a new Moses that was Resurrected again. just as John was a new Elijah that was resurrected again, and like the 12 followers of Moses who were resurrected as 12 apostles of Christ.

And in fact scriptures says similar thing about Moses:

"When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD." Exodus 34:29


So, the Moment that Jesus was raised, is symbolized as the Moment His face became bright as the Sun. And that is like the Resurrection of Dead according to Scriptures. So, Like I said before, there are two instances when it is said Christ is raised from the Dead. One is the moment He was raised to Proclaim the Word of God, and the other time is after His Crucifixion.

Like most of Paul's writings, this verse cannot be taken aside from the purpose of the letter with was, primarily, the smoothing over of factions within the Corinthian congregation. His emphasis on himself as a fellow believer; a brother; means to me that he and the Apostles are among the stars.

From
KJV said:
1Co 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul places God the Father as the supreme being in our worship and Jesus takes second fiddle; as it were; only to Him.

Based on the context of the letter and the verse's purpose to show the individual's glory within the congregation, I must disagree with your assessment. I do not believe the verse has anything to do with Jesus' resurrection and everything to do with the glory of God, Jesus and their followers.

Here is the Verse in somewhat more context:
KJV said:
(1 Corinthians 15:38-41) 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, and there is another flesh of cattle, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. 41 The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, star differs from star in glory.
 

Avoice

Active Member
Because, Jesus had raised Him from Spiritual Death and Unbelief, to the life of Faith and thus he became a follower of Jesus. So, Now Lazarus had become a Believer and would also spread the teachings of Jesus and that Messiah had come and make others also believe. So they said let's kill Lazarus, so, to stop increasing the number of followers of Jesus.

John did as much for many in the congregation and they did not run around trying to kill those Jesus healed from paralysis other illnesses.



But my question is, if indeed Elijah had come physically, then why Elijah did not show Himself to Jews who were expecting Elijah before the Day of Messiah? (according to Jewish Scriptures)

The spiritually blind were not there. Only James and John were there per the scriptures.

Taken up is a an expression that means, He died, and His soul (spiritual body) ascended to the spiritual world of God.

So you are saying that Elijah the Prophet was not physically taken up to God and neither was Enoch.

How do we know spirit is energy?
Is there anything in the Scriptures that says spirit is energy? I am not sure where this idea came from.

It sure ain't flesh and one is either matter or some form of energy.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Hey Investigate Truth, Fundamental Christians are big on a literal interpretation of the creation story in Genesis, how does the Baha'i Faith interpret the Biblical creation story?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Hey Investigate Truth, Fundamental Christians are big on a literal interpretation of the creation story in Genesis, how does the Baha'i Faith interpret the Biblical creation story?
It's about spiritual creation of human civilization in 6000 years, from the Adamic Cycle to the end of Prophetic cycle.
Generally What is interesting to me is that, in my view, the Bible and Quran as well as other major religions teach exactly the same things that Baha'i Scriptures say. However the literal interpretation of those older holy Books, in my view, makes religions seem different from each other. The More I look into older scriptures, the more I feel assure of this.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It's about spiritual creation of human civilization in 6000 years, from the Adamic Cycle to the end of Prophetic cycle.
Generally What is interesting to me is that, in my view, the Bible and Quran as well as other major religions teach exactly the same things that Baha'i Scriptures say. However the literal interpretation of those older holy Books, in my view, makes religions seem different from each other. The More I look into older scriptures, the more I feel assure of this.
If you could say more, I'd appreciate it. The Fundamentalist Christians take such a literal stance that they believe in a literal world-wide flood, a six-day creation and a 6000 year old Earth, which really means a 6000 year old universe. They are battling hard and heavy with Evolutionists, but as I recall the Baha'i Faith had a view that allowed for what appeared to be evolution but was something like that even though man might have looked like a different creature, he was always destined to become man. Is this true and could you elaborate on the Baha'i view of creation/evolution.
 
It is believed by most people that the Scriptures contain both literal and symbolic verses and stories.
How do you decide where to interprete a passage literally and where to inteprete it symbolically or Figuratively.
I am looking for a method that can be used to decide "consistantly" if a passage is symbolic or literal.
Regardless of what other 'all knowing' members of this forum would have you believe, there is a way to read the Bible verbatim.
No need to go galactical on interpretations, the Bible becomes extremely simple when you learn the meaning of the words used in the 'Law'.
It is a book of law after all,
Watch a Hollywood film called 'The story of Ruth' (alluc.org), 2.03.00 into the film you can spot the enactment of the 'George Bush shoe throwing incidence' (an ancient law in ISRAEL). Listen to the words of Ruth just prior to that. (Ruth 4.7)
Note: Land = your body as well as the planet.
Three temples: Inner (your body), Middle (planet earth) and Outer (the Cosmos).
How would anybody really "Know" what is out there? Look at the body, a reflection of the other temples, 'as above, so below'.
By the way, the Torah speaks to a specific group of people called ISRAEL, or 'The House of Jacob' (English-James).
If, like the Jews today, you believe that it speaks to you (Jew or not), please provide 'evidence' that it does.
Ask yourself: Am I a member of the 'House of Jacob', or am I a mere Child (no standing in the law) of the group calling itself ISRAEL?
Also distinguish between the two main characters,
One is called God (Elohim), the other Lord (YHVH), or Lord God (YHVH taking over the position of the Elohim), two separate parts in your body with different functions.
We were taught false (deliberately) interpretations up to now and you have every right to question the 'Scripts' of the Play.
The books are not 'symbolic or allegoric', nor are they 'history', very literal if you pay a close attention to what you are reading.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Hey Investigate Truth, another big one, The Ten Commandments. Symbolic? Or, everlasting truth? Unfortunately, one of them is the Sabbath. In the Hebrew Bible it says things like the Sabbath is forever. Christianity, however, found a way to get rid of the Jewish Sabbath. Not only did they move the day, but they got rid of all of the God-given requirements of how to observe the Sabbath. So, in essence, Christians don't believe in following the Ten Commandments. With the 19 day calendar of the Baha'i Faith, there is no "seventh day." Does the 19 day feast serve as the Baha'i form of the Sabbath?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I am NOT God that I know. It happened. For all I know they were encouraging Jesus in the face of what was to come.

Well, I always believe interpretation of the scriptures should be from the view of the Author.
Did the Authors of Bible said Moses and Elijah came to encourage Jesus? I don't think so. But the Authors of Bible at the end of story brought up the belief of return of Elijah as John the Baptist, and I base my interpretation on what these Authors said.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Hey Investigate Truth, another big one, The Ten Commandments. Symbolic? Or, everlasting truth? Unfortunately, one of them is the Sabbath. In the Hebrew Bible it says things like the Sabbath is forever. Christianity, however, found a way to get rid of the Jewish Sabbath. Not only did they move the day, but they got rid of all of the God-given requirements of how to observe the Sabbath. So, in essence, Christians don't believe in following the Ten Commandments. With the 19 day calendar of the Baha'i Faith, there is no "seventh day." Does the 19 day feast serve as the Baha'i form of the Sabbath?
.
Hi Didymus, The Sabbath Law is a commandment. It is not symbolic. It is specifically a social Law, and God from Age to Age changes the forms of these Laws. For Baha'is the Fridays would be equivalent to Sabbath (Weekend)

I never asked you this question. How can we distinguish between literal and symbolic?
 

Avoice

Active Member
Well, I always believe interpretation of the scriptures should be from the view of the Author.
Did the Authors of Bible said Moses and Elijah came to encourage Jesus? I don't think so. But the Authors of Bible at the end of story brought up the belief of return of Elijah as John the Baptist, and I base my interpretation on what these Authors said.

Who then was Moses, Jesus? Was he speaking with himself? And at the end of the story Jesus is going to his execution. In the Garden, he had angels strengthen him, I feel comfortable with Moses and Elijah coming to encourage Jesus through his future trials.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Who then was Moses, Jesus? Was he speaking with himself?

I think I have already replied to this in post #220, but probably you didn't see my post. So, I copy it here again:

You are preassuming that Moses and Elijah actually appeared there. In my understanding, this was not a physical appearance of them talking to Jesus.
The way I see scriptures is that, the disciples wrote certain spiritual realities using "Figurative" language.
So, for example, they wanted to say, that, Elijah and Moses had returned in a spiritual sense, as John and Jesus, to renew the Faith. Then they described this with a Figurative Story. So, the Scriptures instead of simply saying, Jesus and John were like Moses and Elijah, it comes up with a "inspiring story", that should be interpreted spiritually.
And I believe it does that intentionally, so people make an effort to use their spiritual eye to understand what the Author of Bible wants to say.

According to Authors of Bible, the Scriptures are veiled, and sealed with seven seals.
This point can be established from Bible alone:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing" 2 cori. 4:3

Those who are perishing means, those who are spiritually dead.

The idea is, to look at the Bible with the eye of spirit to see reality of things.

How is it veiled? The answer is, the Bible intentionally speaks in Parables so its hidden meaning is veiled for those who do not have a spiritual eye.


"The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

He replied, ....Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Matthew 13: 10-13


So, what Jesus meant when He said "while seeing they do not see"?

He was saying their spiritual eye was blind.

In many other places in OT and NT it is said the Book is sealed and ordinary and learned men cannot understand it.


The story of Return of Elijah wants to teach that the Pharisees did not recognize Him, because they were after the physical body of Elijah, however Jesus and disciples had recognized that John the Baptist was the Spiritual Return of Elijah. All these stories, point to the fact that the Authors of Hebrew Scriptures, and New Testament, had intentionally wrote Figurative verses to veil. Otherwise, if John the Baptist was to come before Messiah, why should the Hebrew Scriptures say, Elijah comes? It could have made it easy so, The Pharisees could recognize John and not kill Him. Or why should Jesus talked in parables so they could not understand? The idea is, if a person uses spiritual eye, then he may discover these things in scriptures, but if they do not use their spiritual eye, and only sees the apparent meaning, then it is veiled to those who are spiritually dead and perishing (according to Authors of Bible, Not ME!)

And at the end of the story Jesus is going to his execution. In the Garden, he had angels strengthen him, I feel comfortable with Moses and Elijah coming to encourage Jesus through his future trials
Do you think when Jesus said that Father had sent Him, and the Father is in Him, such a Divine Being needs the encouragement or strengthening of Angels?
I just don't know how you reconcile these things. It just doesn't add up for me.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
.
How can we distinguish between literal and symbolic?
That is the most important spiritual question in the world. Jews that take their writings very literal don't believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecies necessary for him to be the Messiah. Christians take Creation, the flood, the virgin birth, the devil, hell, the resurrection etc. all very literal. Since Holy Books have stories that are presented as historical events, but they have elements of myth in them, they could be real events that were embellished. Or, fictional events to make spiritual points. Or, they are totally, literally true, even the myth-sounding parts. I personally like the first explanation. Unfortunately, fundamentalists take the third way. The second way, of saying it is all mystical and symbolic kind of works for me too. But then what do you do with the Baha'i writings? Will someone come along and say they are all symbolic? That the Bab and Baha'u'llah weren't historical people?

One thing for sure literal Christianity is too extreme to bring the world together. It makes all other religions wrong. Yet, I see their point. If a person believes the Bible is the word of God then why not take it as being literal true in all accounts? And, who knows, maybe they are right. But, for myself, I don't believe even the most radical fundamentalist believes everything literally. For example plucking your eye out for lusting, or handling snakes and drinking poison as Jesus said in Mark. People will say that those are obviously not meant to be taken literal, but symbolically or they will come up with some other explanation. I'm not going to pretend to know what is the symbolic meanings, but I am enjoying hearing you come up with how many of the things in the Bible are symbolic to Baha'is.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
That is the most important spiritual question in the world. Jews that take their writings very literal don't believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecies necessary for him to be the Messiah. Christians take Creation, the flood, the virgin birth, the devil, hell, the resurrection etc. all very literal. Since Holy Books have stories that are presented as historical events, but they have elements of myth in them, they could be real events that were embellished. Or, fictional events to make spiritual points. Or, they are totally, literally true, even the myth-sounding parts. I personally like the first explanation. Unfortunately, fundamentalists take the third way. The second way, of saying it is all mystical and symbolic kind of works for me too

There are many reasons to say that Authors of Bible have written Figurative verses. Some examples of them I have already given here. Jesus said: "let dead bury their dead". "Baptizing with Fire". The story that Jesus tells about the old man's son who was dead and now is alive, was lost now is found. They all proves that these scriptures contain Metaphors.

Now, the question was how realize when and where it is literal.


These Authors said the Scriptures are veiled, and sealed with seven seals. that scriptures in sealed in also mentioned many times in Old Testament also.

This point can be established from Bible:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing" 2 cori. 4:3

Those who are perishing means, those who are spiritually dead.

The idea is, to look at the Bible with the eye of spirit to see reality of things.

How is it veiled? The answer is, the Bible intentionally speaks in Parables so its hidden meaning is veiled for those who do not have a spiritual eye.


"The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

He replied, ....Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Matthew 13: 10-13


So, what Jesus meant when He said "while seeing they do not see"?

He was saying their spiritual eye was blind.

In many other places in OT and NT it is said the Book is sealed and ordinary and learned men cannot understand it.


The story of Return of Elijah wants to teach that the Pharisees did not recognize Him, because they were after the physical body of Elijah, however Jesus and disciples had recognized that John the Baptist was the Spiritual Return of Elijah. All these stories, point to the fact that the Authors of Hebrew Scriptures, and New Testament, had intentionally wrote Figurative verses to veil. Otherwise, if John the Baptist was to come before Messiah, why should the Hebrew Scriptures say, Elijah comes? It could have made it easy so, The Pharisees could recognize John and not kill Him. Or why should Jesus talked in parables so they could not understand? The idea is, if a person uses spiritual eye, then he may discover these things in scriptures, but if they do not use their spiritual eye, and only sees the apparent meaning, then it is veiled to those who are spiritually dead and perishing.



But then what do you do with the Baha'i writings? Will someone come along and say they are all symbolic? That the Bab and Baha'u'llah weren't historical people?
The Baha'i Faith is different in this case, because, Baha'u'llah appointed Abdulbaha as the official infallible interpreter. Abdulbaha wrote great amount of Scriptures interpreting the Writings of Baha'u'llah. But in the Case of Bible, Jesus or Moses did not appoint an official infallible interpreter, who would write interpretation for them. This was left for Revelation of Baha'ullah, the Return of Christ to be fulfilled.
Another difference is that, the Existence and life of Moses and Jesus cannot be verified outside of Bible. There is NO real history Book on them. But the Baha'i Faith has History Books outside of Its own Scriptures.
So, in my view, the Bible Is NOT really a History Book. It should be examined as a Holy Book, that is inspired by God, and not a literal History Book.


If a person believes the Bible is the word of God then why not take it as being literal true in all accounts?

Because God did not say He is speaking literally, did He?
We should analyze these Books according to what the Authors said they are writing. If these Authors had said we are writing a literal history Book, then you are right. But I am afraid that is not the case.
Jesus said He was saying secrets using Parables.



And, who knows, maybe they are right. But, for myself, I don't believe even the most radical fundamentalist believes everything literally. For example plucking your eye out for lusting, or handling snakes and drinking poison as Jesus said in Mark. People will say that those are obviously not meant to be taken literal, but symbolically or they will come up with some other explanation. I'm not going to pretend to know what is the symbolic meanings, but I am enjoying hearing you come up with how many of the things in the Bible are symbolic to Baha'is
Essentially, in Baha'i View, the Revelations of God is Realistic. It's not like a few prophets came did some strange useless Miracles, and now God expects us believe in Him with these Miracles. In Baha'i View, the Revelations are much deeper and fruitful than just a show of Miracles.
Even if you are familiar with Mystics, such as Rumi, He also interpreted many of these stories Figuratively. An example of that is the Resurrection of Dead, and Rumi explains with His Poetry the spiritual meaning of it, using symbols. I had already placed that in Quran's Scripture debate.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
If these Authors had said we are writing a literal history Book, then you are right. But I am afraid that is not the case.
Jesus said He was saying secrets using Parables.
Unfortunately, the gospels are written as if they are history. The apostles were on a boat and Jesus came walking on the water. They stood and watched the resurrected Jesus ascend into heaven. So what is a good Christian to do? They are taught that it is literal. They are taught that all other religions are false because Jesus said he is the only way. If they are wrong, it is the worst form of brain washing that could be--to trick people into believe they have the one and only truth and they don't. They have a bunch of misinterpreted supposedly sacred writings. But the strange thing is, those writings do have enormous power. Is it real or is it just a placebo?
 

Avoice

Active Member
Investigate Truth:

Here are some scriptures on Sun and Star that might interest you:

KJV said:
2Sa 23:4 And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain.


Of the "hypocrite's hope shall perish:
KJV said:
" Job 8:16 He is green before the sun, and his branch shooteth forth in his garden"

Of God the Father
KJV said:
Psa 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

H3068 = LORD
יהוה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

Of King David:
KJV said:
Psa 89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

The lover in the Song of Soloman:
KJV said:
Son_6:10 Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners?

I suspect this speaks of Jehovah and Jesus:
KJV said:
Isa_30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

This may also be of Jesus:
KJV said:
Mal_4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Believers
KJV said:
Mat_13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Again of Believers:
NWT said:
(Daniel 12:3) . . . 3 “And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.
 
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