How to protect religious freedom and conscience rights

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Those of you looking for accommodation on this: what else are you looking to accommodate? You aren't just looking for accommodation for wedding cake bakers, are you?

How about housing? Do you think a landlord should be able to refuse to rent to same-sex couples?

Or how about parent participation in education? Should a teacher be able to refuse to have a parent-teacher meeting for both parents of a kid with two moms?

How about health care? Should a doctor or pharmacist be able to refuse normal aspects of medical care (e.g. birth control) to their patients on religious grounds?

I get that you see wedding cake bakers as the "easy win" (even though they really aren't), but what's your end goal?

 

[HonestJoe]

I believe the problem lies in ‘who decides’?

The people, via their democratically elected representatives in government. It's the method we've been deciding this kind of thing for many years and people only complain about it when the majority conclusion differs from their own.

For people who don’t believe in God they believe that it is their right to force one and all to comply with their wishes.

That is just bigoted trash! All sorts of people seek to push their wishes on others, with belief in God or not having no distinction. In the USA, most of the people writing and voting for the laws you’re complain about will believe in God.

I believe live and let live should be exercised here each respecting the right of the other to follow their own path in life.

To what extent though. There will be plenty of rules and laws different people disapprove of or that go against their preferred way of living. I mean, it’s interesting that there is suddenly this big hoo-hah based on these specific laws being extended to cover sexual orientation yet absolutely no objection through the decades of them covering race, gender and, of course, religion.

 

[BilliardsBall]

In regards to same sex marriage, Conservatives solution of a compromise had already been ruled, by the Supreme Court, unconstitutional. In regard to access, again, the right wants a solution that has already been ruled illegal in the same situation, but a different class of people. You are still free to associate, you just don't get special treatment and privileges because you are religious. Equal protection and rights are a guarantee of the Constitution to all citizens. Opening is not. It is a privilege, and bound to the laws that govern businesses, including anti-discrimination laws. Being Christian doesn't mean you get to ignore those laws you don't like, especially if you can't even support them in your own holy book (but suggest the contrary where even Jesus himself didn't care or turn people away because of their sins).

What does same sex marriage as a right have to do with a business being forced to create products for every client who asks? Now an architect who prioritizes a house they like the design of over one they don't can be accused of anti-gay bias or whatever...

 

[ImmortalFlame]

What does same sex marriage as a right have to do with a business being forced to create products for every client who asks?

That's not the issue. Nobody is telling them they have to "create products for every client who asks". They're being told "You cannot refuse to provide products you would otherwise provide to customers on the basis of race, gender or sexuality". Do you understand the difference?

Now an architect who prioritizes a house they like the design of over one they don't can be accused of anti-gay bias or whatever...

That makes no sense.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What does same sex marriage as a right have to do with a business being forced to create products for every client who asks?

It doesn't. It's about protection against discrimination on the basis of gender and sexual orientation.

Now an architect who prioritizes a house they like the design of over one they don't can be accused of anti-gay bias or whatever...

It's not about the design, it's about the refusal of certain customers.

Any business makes decisions about what products to sell and what services to offer. A wedding cake bakery would be within their rights to, say, not sell "groom & groom" cake toppers at all.

They're also free to put parameters on the design of their cakes. One of those parameters could be that the cake design can't make reference to same-sex marriage. That would be legal. Kinda douchy and bigoted, but still legal.

... but if a bakery completely refuses a same-sex couple without any discussion of cake design at all, or if they refuse to do a cake design for a same-sex couple that they would have done for an opposite-sex couple, then the issue isn't the baker's design or artistic expression.

 

[tayla]

these laws are causing the religious freedom and conscience rights of Christians and others to be violated by forcing such people to provide services for same-sex weddings. If they don't comply and provide the services, they are found in violation of the law.

Yes, our society shouldn't be so fanatical, forcing everyone into one specific shape. Both sides are guilty of this.

 

[tayla]

Why can't Christians and those with sincere moral or religious convictions against same-sex marriage be exempted from these laws?

Why do these people have to take such a strong stand against other people? Why are one group in society shunning other groups just because they have different values? Seems the only way to have a diverse society is for people to accept others.

Christendom was already tried. It failed miserably.

 

[tayla]

My opinion is that the fine details of justice are an ever moving target. You always overshoot in one directions or the other, so you have to keep correcting over time. Justice is like a car in a lane on a highway. It cannot remain in the lane without a driver. Someone has to decide when one rule and another rule seem to have tension between them.

Except that religious bigots (and other cultural zealots) are not trying to adjust and correct their course. They would prefer that people they don't like go back were they came from.

 

[tayla]

A person who wants nothing to do with same-sex weddings could choose any number of career paths or business opportunities where they would never have to do anything ever for a same-sex wedding.

It could be difficult or worse for some people to dodge all the things they dislike. Does that mean society should bend over backwards to accommodate them? I don't think so.

 

[tayla]

Just wait till they make a church have to accept homosexual preachers or laity into the church.

Why should a church enjoy the benefit of paying no taxes anyway, especially when they are so hostile to the culture at large and their fellow citizens?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Except that religious bigots (and other cultural zealots) are not trying to adjust and correct their course. They would prefer that people they don't like go back were they came from.

I'm very sorry. All progress tends to be slow and only looks rapid in History books. I have been a religious bigot before (when I was a teenager), so I am dismayed by the situation. Fortunately I cared a little about the concerns of homosexual people and experienced some events which caused me to become interested in their questions. Even so I am not considerably generous or caring, just lucky. I'm just lucky to understand better. Bigotry, culturally, has to be resolved with improving love in each person, like when you warm something up. We have to improve culturally as a whole. It can't be done just through entertainers and court decisions and through complaints or just logical argument. Those are dimensions just like temperature has dimensions at the atomic level. They are components insufficient on their own. Bigotry is like a thermometer that takes the temperature of a culture. When you are kind to someone who has problem you don't share, then you improve the temperature of the world you are in. You can indirectly improve the culture by doing so. That isn't easy, because first you have to be able to understand another's problem and then take a risk in assisting them with their need. It is the soul of friendship, right? You often don't get anything back right away. There is no guarantee. To seek a guaranteed return is to add to the cold, to be merely part of the system. Each of us can only put out so much heat. We're buried in our own self interests, so culture doesn't improve quickly.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What does same sex marriage as a right have to do with a business being forced to create products for every client who asks?

People have a right to equality under the law, and that includes marriage. People do not have a right to go into business, and indeed they are obliged to follow the law when they do have a business. This means they can't discriminate. Christians have already been around the block with this issue, the Supreme Court has already told them no, but again and again they seek special treatment, privileges, and exemptions from the law just because they are Christian.
When you serve the public, you serve the public. Not even your Jesus said "those of this certain sin cannot eat the fish or bread, and they can't hear my ministry of receive my miracles."

 

[allright]

Should a Jewish Baker have to decorate a cake with the words "hitler was right"

or a homosexual baker decorate a cake with the words "all **** are evil"

 

[wandering peacefully]

Unless there isn't another place to go, as is often the case in rural America. Anti-discrimination laws prevent tribalistic pockets from forming to ostracize minority groups. Religion also has protection, too. I cannot choose to deny Christians the same business I provide everyone else.

I think this is the absolute best answer. It is concise, clear, and makes the ultimate point.

I cannot as a business person following civil and criminal law, operating in the public domain, I cannot under any circumstances deny you my services because you are a Christian or any other religious person because of my personal views. It is not an option.

 

[Windwalker]

My question is would Jesus be going around not serving wedding cakes to people?

This screams petty nonsense to me. If you don’t like treating people equally or how you would like to be treated, maybe don’t serve the public.

And maybe quit calling themselves Christian as well, since that's at the very core of Jesus' teachings?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Should a Jewish Baker have to decorate a cake with the words "hitler was right"

or a homosexual baker decorate a cake with the words "all **** are evil"

You can't discriminate on the basis of race, religion, national origin, sex, gender or sexuality. You absolutely can refuse service to dicks who are just being dicks.

 

[dad]

Hey everyone. I am not sure if this is the right forum for this question so if I am putting it in the wrong forum, I apologize.

Anyway, lately, there have been some problems in the United States with laws against discrimination and religious freedom or conscience rights. Basically, these laws say that you cannot discriminate against someone because of sexual orientation or gender identity among other things. However, these laws are causing the religious freedom and conscience rights of Christians and others to be violated by forcing such people to provide services for same-sex weddings. If they don't comply and provide the services, they are found in violation of the law.

My question is this. Isn't there some sort of compromise where religious freedom and conscience rights can be protected while minimizing the amount of discrimination that would take place against minorities or is it just simply a fact that religious freedom will have to be sacrificed in order for these laws to take effect? Why can't Christians and those with sincere moral or religious convictions against same-sex marriage be exempted from these laws? After all, it's not like your average gay couple is going to have a hard time finding a baker to bake their wedding cake for them if one baker on the corner refuses to bake the cake for their wedding. There are plenty of places they can go to.

I would say no. The world moves away from God predictably and the fate of nations hinges on that move. When it gets to a certain 'mile marker' then the nation gets destroyed by God. Once the depravity reaches levels we see today, I don't think there is any direction to go but the descent into evil and hell. Increasing persecution of believers and official siding of a wicked nation with Lucifer and demons is par for the course. Christians are strangers and pilgrims here, just passing through, so I don't think it would be realistic to expect a free falling wicked nation to 'compromise' with God and His word or people.

We know the direction the world is going. We know what direction we are going.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

However, these laws are causing the religious freedom and conscience rights of Christians and others to be violated by forcing such people to provide services for same-sex weddings. If they don't comply and provide the services, they are found in violation of the law.

I think you're debating against economic movement in the community though, which the bakers, tailors, and churches would refuse to their detriment. So what you're talking about may help sustain the services you want, probably especially these days when service attendance is dropping. So either debate against this or accept a gift horse.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The people, via their democratically elected representatives in government. It's the method we've been deciding this kind of thing for many years and people only complain about it when the majority conclusion differs from their own.

That is just bigoted trash! All sorts of people seek to push their wishes on others, with belief in God or not having no distinction. In the USA, most of the people writing and voting for the laws you’re complain about will believe in God.

To what extent though. There will be plenty of rules and laws different people disapprove of or that go against their preferred way of living. I mean, it’s interesting that there is suddenly this big hoo-hah based on these specific laws being extended to cover sexual orientation yet absolutely no objection through the decades of them covering race, gender and, of course, religion.

My understanding is that right or wrong, good or bad, moral and immoral can only be determined by the Prophets God sends for each age. In this age I believe He sent Baha’u’llah Who has revealed guidance on all these matters so that humanity can have true knowledge about these issues not second guesses.

 

[Shad]

Hey everyone. I am not sure if this is the right forum for this question so if I am putting it in the wrong forum, I apologize.

Anyway, lately, there have been some problems in the United States with laws against discrimination and religious freedom or conscience rights. Basically, these laws say that you cannot discriminate against someone because of sexual orientation or gender identity among other things. However, these laws are causing the religious freedom and conscience rights of Christians and others to be violated by forcing such people to provide services for same-sex weddings. If they don't comply and provide the services, they are found in violation of the law.

My question is this. Isn't there some sort of compromise where religious freedom and conscience rights can be protected while minimizing the amount of discrimination that would take place against minorities or is it just simply a fact that religious freedom will have to be sacrificed in order for these laws to take effect? Why can't Christians and those with sincere moral or religious convictions against same-sex marriage be exempted from these laws? After all, it's not like your average gay couple is going to have a hard time finding a baker to bake their wedding cake for them if one baker on the corner refuses to bake the cake for their wedding. There are plenty of places they can go to.

A lot of business discrimination laws only apply to needed services. A wedding cake isn't a needed service. These days those type of law suits are just people trying to force other people to validate their views and a way to get some money.