chuck010342
Active Member
s2a said:A modest proposal to redeem a few Billion souls...
As an atheist (with neither faith nor belief in any gods or supernatural entities and/or supernatural cause/effect), I have often been asked what would be considered undeniable empirical evidence and proof of the claims of (a) divine/supernatural presence and existence.
Focusing upon (simply because they tend to be more vociferous), but certainly not limited to the Christian faith, I wish to submit one scenario that would certainly make me an instant convert and devout believer in (a) God/Goddess.
Both in Old Testament and New, "miracles" (i.e. what would be deemed as humanly impossible acts) were performed on a somewhat regular basis to "prove" God's might and power to believer and non-believer alike. Of course the problem was then, as it is today, that natural skepticism would kick in amongst many...dismissing such "miracles" as: mere illusionist's trick; "mass hysteria"; singular delusion(s); or otherwise, as "extraordinary", but certainly not categorically implausible or erstwhile unexplainable/unattributable phenomena. Obviously, there are also people with beliefs in alternate supernatural deities, spiritual forces, etc. that remain equally unmoved by such Biblical "miracles".
Many would contend that "miracles" happen every day (spiritually speaking, not colloquially), and that it simply remains for the unbeliever to recognize/identify/concede such as "miracles". Arguably, the "degree" (and scope) of present day "miracles" is certainly lessened, not just in frequency alone; for we no longer "witness"...believer-induced/adherent-ascribed "partings" of the "water"; re-animation of "days-long-dead" folk; transformations of staffs into snakes; changing of water to human blood; royally ordained "first born" infanticides, etc. , etc., etc.
I leave it to others to explain why this is so.
In order to provide demonstrably incontrovertible; universally observable; independently falsifiable; and unequivocal "faith-specific" evidence and proof of an omniscient and all powerful god, the following suggestion is proposed:
1) God (meaning to represent any divine entity in question) "speaks" to a group of His followers/adherents (after they prayerfully beseech Him to "reveal Himself to unbelievers), commanding them to preach of an upcoming "miracle" and message in the sky from God Himself (this would provide the basis of a prophecy to be borne out as true). Such a caveat is *optional*. Either the miracle can be "foretold", or manifest itself as a complete "surprise" (it's just that "fulfilled" prophecy seems to hold more sway and cognitive superficial influence than "unannounced" miracles.
2) Afterwards, God arranges distant stars and galaxies (maybe even comets) to form a written message. Preferably, the message would be faith specific, ie. "I am Allah", or "I am Jehovah", "I am the God and Father of Jesus Christ", etc. (essentially to settle the debate as to which religion is "right"), but that is not critical to proving at least a supernatural entity causation. Maximum effect may be achieved by altering the message at least twice (to rule out any additional doubts as to whether the phenomena was natural or supernatural).
3) The message must be observable from both hemispheres of the planet (therefore two identical messages, for maximum exposure and continuity).
4) The "message" should be written in a modern earthly language (not symbols or untranslatable dead languages). The particular language doesn't especially matter, but for maximum impact, God could vary the message on a rotating weekly basis to eventually reflect all written human languages (time consuming, but what is that to God?)
5) When God is done with the message "miracle", He should return the cosmos to the state it was in prior to the "miracle" (don't want to interfere with any long term plan or purpose).
If the "miracle" were to be performed under the parameters stated above, I can virtually assure you a couple of billion converts in short order, with myself first at the altar in prayerful worship.
Why?
1)Because that proposed "miracle" is beyond any human (or even alien) capacity to hoax, regardless of technological prowess, and would defy every known law and theory of physics.
2) Because the miracle is readily accessible, observable, and potentially falsifiable by any and all humans (discounting any possibility of "mass hysteria", or selective uncorroborated eyewitness accounts, or singularly anecdotal "testimonies").
3) The Doppler shift of the utilized galaxies and stars could be measured and documented, with independently observable/verifiable results.
4) It's pretty darn impressive.
Resistance to this proposition is inevitable. I anticipate responses along the lines of, "If God proves His existence, then what would be the purpose of faith?", or "God doesn't need to prove Himself to you", or "All the proof you need is already here and available". Fine. If you wish to defend a position stating that your God need not prove His existence to unbelievers, please do so based upon the written tenants of your faith. Don't simply render an opinion; base your case in quotable, referenced, dogmatic/Scriptural text.
I've offered a sure fire way to convert a few billion heathens to your particular faith or beliefs with little more effort than prayerful request of your omniscient, all-powerful God to so enlighten, and consequently save these immortal souls for all eternity.
So I ask you, what's wrong with that?
wait a min you are an atheist and your 'providing proof for Gods exsistance' I'm a little lost here.
