How to prove God to an atheist (no, really)...

[~Amin~]

Burden of proof is on you. Show your God

There are extraordinary miracles in the Qur'an but you cannot be biesd thats
doing injustice ti your self.

 

[UnTheist]

Peace you cant see wind but you clearly see the trees move,
you cant see radiowaves but you can clearly speak on the phone,
you cant see gravity ,so you get my point ,the sme way we cant see God
but he works miracles in our life wich are clear ;he even shows them to you
but some people are intoxicated by materialism.
with my care and compassion for you.

You can measure radio waves, you can measure wind. You can measure gravity. You can't measure God

Good luck with that

 

[rojse]

Peace you cant see wind but you clearly see the trees move,
you cant see radiowaves but you can clearly speak on the phone,
you cant see gravity ,so you get my point ,the sme way we cant see God
but he works miracles in our life wich are clear ;he even shows them to you
but some people are intoxicated by materialism.
with my care and compassion for you.

I cannot see wind, but I can measure it's effects precisely - what do you think windsocks are for?
Radiowaves can be seen by using machines, too.
I cannot see gravity, but I can accurately measure it's effects.

I cannot see God, but I cannot measure His effects, either, unlike all of the other examples you have given. Comparing quantifiable scientific phenomena to a being that exists outside of the scientific sphere is not an apt comparison.

 

[UnTheist]

There are extraordinary miracles in the Qur'an but you cannot be biesd thats
doing injustice ti your self.

That's exactly how the Christians feel.

 

[s2a]

Hello rojse,

You commented:

I have been thinking about the idea of doing a huge feat to prove the existence of God. How would we know that it was God that done this feat?

I think a message such as "I, God (moi) did this, and here's my email addy in case you still have your doubts", or something like that...seems pretty compelling to me.

If I managed to go back in time, and showed the cave people how to light a fire, and shot a couple of animals for them, they would think I was God, because my technology far surpassed their knowledge of what could even be done.

Indeed. Which is why ignorance (or wide-eyed awe) is always poor foundation for any religion.

If some super advanced group of aliens was monitoring us, managed to shift all of the stars the way you suggested, by communicating with faster than light communications, and moving the stars with antigravity, to shape the word God, would we think that this was God at work?

You mean along the lines of this...?

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)

I have no prejudiced boundaries of what any god's "powers" might encompass or entail, or what that "god" might "look" like, or from whatever location it may originate. Would you care to define what qualities/attributes a "genuine god" should evince?

In my estimation (and answer of "Yes, I would"), any alien species that could manifest the miracle (in the manner and fashion) I have proposed would be "god-like" enough for me to ardently follow (and merrily keep) whatever "rules" they chose to establish as necessarily obedient in keeping with their further good graces and mystical "design".

I'll put it to you then, as many believers have often (enough) put the question to me..."What would it take for you to 'believe'?".

You have my answer...what is yours?

;-)

 

[rojse]

Hello rojse,

You commented:



I think a message such as "I, God (moi) did this, and here's my email addy in case you still have your doubts", or something like that...seems pretty compelling to me.



Indeed. Which is why ignorance (or wide-eyed awe) is always poor foundation for any religion.



You mean along the lines of this...?

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)

I have no prejudiced boundaries of what any god's "powers" might encompass or entail, or what that "god" might "look" like, or from whatever location it may originate. Would you care to define what qualities/attributes a "genuine god" should evince?

In my estimation (and answer of "Yes, I would"), any alien species that could manifest the miracle (in the manner and fashion) I have proposed would be "god-like" enough for me to ardently follow (and merrily keep) whatever "rules" they chose to establish as necessarily obedient in keeping with their further good graces and mystical "design".

I'll put it to you then, as many believers have often (enough) put the question to me..."What would it take for you to 'believe'?".

You have my answer...what is yours?

;-)

You understand my point exactly. I even had Sir Arthur C Clarke's quote in mind when considering my post.

I don't know what it would take for me to believe, but that would be pretty convincing, adding to that, it has the added benefit of the possibility of the "alien gods" actually wishing to share knowledge and technologies with us.

 

[s2a]

Like i mentioned before its for you to prove God doesnt exist if one closes his eyes to the sun he only makes darkness for himself Ill pray for your eyes to be opened.

You're obviously new to this whole concept of engaging debate subject to critical thinking, so I gonna give you a pass here, and effort to be gentle enough...

...if I claim that a two-ton invisible elephant follows you throughout the course of your every waking moment, and I insist that my claim is a testament of faith-based "TRUTH"...upon whom would you rightfully expect an evidentially burdened "proof" of claim to be fulfilled? Do you feel that you bear any responsibility in disproving my faith-based claim?

If you observe that your stalking invisible elephant makes no sound, I would remind you that your elephant can make himself inaudible to your hearing.

If you note that a wake of destruction would certainly follow such an elephant-sized presence, I would counter that your elephant can instantaneously adjust both weight and girth as needs be, to prevent so much crushed furniture and broken glassware.

If you insist that there is no wafting odor of musky elephant (or his droppings) within the room in which you sit, I would claim that your stalking elephant has no smell that is perceptible to you.

Now, you should know that this invisible stalking elephant is keeping detailed records of every single thing you say, do, or think...because this elephant is also charged with evaluating your complete lifelong character, and will serve as your ultimate judge and jury when it's time for you to travel to the final elephant graveyard of jurisprudent deliverance into the next realm of stealthy invisibility.

This is my faith-based claim of undeniable, unequivocal, and elephantine TRUTH.

Which one of us should bear the greater burdens of provided and evidenced proofs or disproofs regarding that invisible elephant?

 

[~Amin~]

You can measure radio waves, you can measure wind. You can measure gravity. You can't measure God

Good luck with that

What about the fact that it was doumented in Qur'an 1400years ago that evry person has unique finger prints wich was discovered in 1901,and also the big bang is in Qur'an wich was recently discovered, and that souse of things is from water and on and on, and also the prophecys and the truths it contains.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What about the fact that it was doumented in Qur'an 1400years ago that evry person has unique finger prints wich was discovered in 1901,and also the big bang is in Qur'an wich was recently discovered, and that souse of things is from water and on and on, and also the prophecys and the truths it contains.

Baloney ...

 

[rojse]

I have finally thought of my own way to prove the existence of God.

What about the spontaneous creation of a complex organism?

 

[logician]

Why would a supposed god care if we believed in it or not?

It's like us caring if ants believe in us.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Why would a supposed god care if we believed in it or not?

It's like us caring if ants believe in us.

Like many religionists, your understanding of God is that of an old man with a white beard looking over your shoulder and so you rightly deny God's existence. But that is an ugly, superstitious, primitive concept. I understand that people run with what they know, but this is the 21st century: there is more in mathematics an God than 2+2.

 

[s2a]

I have finally thought of my own way to prove the existence of God.

What about the spontaneous creation of a complex organism?

You mean...like a child's birthday party magician pulling a living rabbit out of an empty top hat? ;-P

OK...I'd like to hear more about your alternative proposal of provisionally evidential proof of a god.

How shall we test it?

How might we isolate the demonstration as being somewhere beyond crafty illusion (have you seen some of the stuff that Criss Angel manages? A good bit of it defies almost any/all rational explanation), or facile human gullibility, or some wish/delusion/hope that such a demonstration ("miracle") is only manifestly possible (in execution) by some exceptional or supernatural entity/deity?

Please know that I appreciate your reflective cogitations on this "proof of god" hypothesis, and perhaps you might design/outline a compelling methodology that would serve to eliminate the prospects of either mundane or tangentially-approached invalidations (such as a plausibly crafted illusion, or "trick") of such an hypothesis?

Could the "performed phenomena" be measured, tested, and independently validated/verified? If so, how would you construct such a test to replicate requisite uniformity and elimination of any/all preconceived aspects of bias/prejudice?

Make the case...I'd enjoy examining it's prospective possibilities...

 

[s2a]

Amin-

That invisible elephant will never leave your side...now what?

 

[storm2020]

You know what? I actually looked over my shoulder then! Then i thought wait! It's invisible!

 

[sandandfoam]

I think God is the most appropriate way of explaining the gap which science cannot (yet??) explain arising from Descartes 'method of doubt', i.e Descartes conclusion that he was in essence a thinking thing. This renders it conceivable that mind might exist independently of brain. The problem this poses is a major one for the contemporary study of consciousness, and, personally speaking, I've had to review my atheism untill this old problem of embodiement is resloved. 'Till then atheism seems to me to require belief and is therefore something to which I cannot subscribe. So here I am scratching my head and contemplating God, not an embodied God, rather a God that (for now) has to explain what science cannot (yet!), but here again I am having to, because science does not provide the answer, beleive!
Honestly, I'm as surprised as anyone

 

[dust1n]

A modest proposal to redeem a few Billion souls...

As an atheist (with neither faith nor belief in any gods or supernatural entities and/or supernatural cause/effect), I have often been asked what would be considered undeniable empirical evidence and proof of the claims of (a) divine/supernatural presence and existence.

Focusing upon (simply because they tend to be more vociferous), but certainly not limited to the Christian faith, I wish to submit one scenario that would certainly make me an instant convert and devout believer in (a) God/Goddess.

Both in Old Testament and New, "miracles" (i.e. what would be deemed as humanly impossible acts) were performed on a somewhat regular basis to "prove" God's might and power to believer and non-believer alike. Of course the problem was then, as it is today, that natural skepticism would kick in amongst many...dismissing such "miracles" as: mere illusionist's trick; "mass hysteria"; singular delusion(s); or otherwise, as "extraordinary", but certainly not categorically implausible or erstwhile unexplainable/unattributable phenomena. Obviously, there are also people with beliefs in alternate supernatural deities, spiritual forces, etc. that remain equally unmoved by such Biblical "miracles".

Many would contend that "miracles" happen every day (spiritually speaking, not colloquially), and that it simply remains for the unbeliever to recognize/identify/concede such as "miracles". Arguably, the "degree" (and scope) of present day "miracles" is certainly lessened, not just in frequency alone; for we no longer "witness"...believer-induced/adherent-ascribed "partings" of the "water"; re-animation of "days-long-dead" folk; transformations of staffs into snakes; changing of water to human blood; royally ordained "first born" infanticides, etc. , etc., etc.

I leave it to others to explain why this is so.

In order to provide demonstrably incontrovertible; universally observable; independently falsifiable; and unequivocal "faith-specific" evidence and proof of an omniscient and all powerful god, the following suggestion is proposed:

1) God (meaning to represent any divine entity in question) "speaks" to a group of His followers/adherents (after they prayerfully beseech Him to "reveal Himself to unbelievers), commanding them to preach of an upcoming "miracle" and message in the sky from God Himself (this would provide the basis of a prophecy to be borne out as true). Such a caveat is *optional*. Either the miracle can be "foretold", or manifest itself as a complete "surprise" (it's just that "fulfilled" prophecy seems to hold more sway and cognitive superficial influence than "unannounced" miracles.

2) Afterwards, God arranges distant stars and galaxies (maybe even comets) to form a written message. Preferably, the message would be faith specific, ie. "I am Allah", or "I am Jehovah", "I am the God and Father of Jesus Christ", etc. (essentially to settle the debate as to which religion is "right"), but that is not critical to proving at least a supernatural entity causation. Maximum effect may be achieved by altering the message at least twice (to rule out any additional doubts as to whether the phenomena was natural or supernatural).

3) The message must be observable from both hemispheres of the planet (therefore two identical messages, for maximum exposure and continuity).

4) The "message" should be written in a modern earthly language (not symbols or untranslatable dead languages). The particular language doesn't especially matter, but for maximum impact, God could vary the message on a rotating weekly basis to eventually reflect all written human languages (time consuming, but what is that to God?)

5) When God is done with the message "miracle", He should return the cosmos to the state it was in prior to the "miracle" (don't want to interfere with any long term plan or purpose).

If the "miracle" were to be performed under the parameters stated above, I can virtually assure you a couple of billion converts in short order, with myself first at the altar in prayerful worship.

Why?

1)Because that proposed "miracle" is beyond any human (or even alien) capacity to hoax, regardless of technological prowess, and would defy every known law and theory of physics.

2) Because the miracle is readily accessible, observable, and potentially falsifiable by any and all humans (discounting any possibility of "mass hysteria", or selective uncorroborated eyewitness accounts, or singularly anecdotal "testimonies").

3) The Doppler shift of the utilized galaxies and stars could be measured and documented, with independently observable/verifiable results.

4) It's pretty darn impressive.

Resistance to this proposition is inevitable. I anticipate responses along the lines of, "If God proves His existence, then what would be the purpose of faith?", or "God doesn't need to prove Himself to you", or "All the proof you need is already here and available". Fine. If you wish to defend a position stating that your God need not prove His existence to unbelievers, please do so based upon the written tenants of your faith. Don't simply render an opinion; base your case in quotable, referenced, dogmatic/Scriptural text.

I've offered a sure fire way to convert a few billion heathens to your particular faith or beliefs with little more effort than prayerful request of your omniscient, all-powerful God to so enlighten, and consequently save these immortal souls for all eternity.

So I ask you, what's wrong with that?

It hasn't happened.


I don't see why you dismiss aliens though.
If you can use something that we've never seen,
I don't see why we can't either.

 

[roli]

A modest proposal to redeem a few Billion souls...

As an atheist (with neither faith nor belief in any gods or supernatural entities and/or supernatural cause/effect), I have often been asked what would be considered undeniable empirical evidence and proof of the claims of (a) divine/supernatural presence and existence

.

I hope you find what your looking for,that is it sounds more of just wanting to debate ,as this is a debate forum ,I agree ,but if you seriously are'nt looking for God, as it seems to me, and your heart is not truly soul searching for answers ,but more so a search to debate, and be intellectually stimulated,arguing facts back and forth ,you won't find God, that way. Seldom does one find God that way ,I guess it can and has happened, but it is very rare.
Although God can, according to his word ,he resists the proud and gives grace to the humble ,unless we are broken in our sin and sorry state ,will he reach down and save us.

By the way, no Christian will or has ever proven the existence of God beyond a doubt to another although it has been going on forever
No man comes to God unless he draws them himself, period,we don't choose him he chooses us ,try if you may, but he calls us and when he does ,we will know it.

In order to provide demonstrably incontrovertible; universally observable; independently falsifiable; and unequivocal "faith-specific" evidence and proof of an omniscient and all powerful god,

Ask God !!!!, man's answers will never satisfy you,the bible speaks of a parable where the rich man and the beggar died ,the rich man went to hell and was tormented ,he cried out to Abraham ,go and warn my brothers , Abraham said ,they have the law and the prophets, and they never listened , what makes you think they will lsiten to a dead man if one is sent.
I think the same is with you,you have an agenda and you just want share it ,so go for it

I could spend hours discussing ,arguing,debating with you,but, as far as your concerned, and I could be wrong ,I sense you don't really want to know if God is there , you just want to philosophize, share your vast knowledge and display your superior intellect on your atheistic position and that is great, and that's what this is here for,but I can't be a aprt of it.
It exhausts me just thinking about what you have to share and where this could go.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No man comes to God unless he draws them himself, period,we don't choose him he chooses us ,try if you may, but he calls us and when he does ,we will know it.

Don't you think this goes against ideas that other Christians have put forward?

Several people have told me that punishment of unbelievers in Hell is justified because God has called every person, and those who do not believe choose to do so wilfully.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

stephenw,

Interesting post! I offer these questions for your consideration:

This renders it conceivable that mind might exist independently of brain.

Can you identify a single mental process or state (fear, love, symbolic thought, awareness of self, passage of time, memory, alertness, recognition of faces) that is independent of the brain? I believe there are numerous studies that tie every one of these processes to our brains.

If the mind is independent of the brain, why is it that sudden trauma to the brain, or certain chemicals administered to the brain, cause us to lose consciousness?