How to prove God.

[Justanatheist]

I've already done that. I got nothing. Your god failed the test.

I am interested as another atheist, in how you suspend your scepticism, I cant, its not that I wont try, I just cannot do it.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You're right, I do pick and choose what I allow into my syncretic belief system. Baha'ism, which itself is often called a syncretic relgion, teaches that each individual should conduct their own independent investigation of reality, rather than believing what any religion teaches, such as Baha'ism. The process of me picking and choosing what I believe is a result of my own independent investigation.

Similar to Sufism too, Yes there is a teaching but to know and understand it one has to investigate every aspect of life

 

[Justanatheist]

You're right, I do pick and choose what I allow into my syncretic belief system. Baha'ism, which itself is often called a syncretic relgion, teaches that each individual should conduct their own independent investigation of reality, rather than believing what any religion teaches, such as Baha'ism. The process of me picking and choosing what I believe is a result of my own independent investigation.

But did you not say we had to ignore "generations of conditioning" have there not been generations of conditioning that effect your beliefs such as young earth and Jesus?

 

[an anarchist]

But did you not say we had to ignore "generations of conditioning" have there not been generations of conditioning that effect your beliefs such as young earth and Jesus?

Well, as a Biblical literalist, I would say that the teaching of a young earth was the original one, while the old earth theory is the one that has been conditioned. And I do believe that since Jesus has died, mainstream Christian philosophy has completely corrupted his teachings. Churches say that Jesus taught to pay your taxes (LOL). Every Baptist church (in America at least) will teach that we are to submit to our government and that it is moral to kill Muslims through war. This is an example of a conditioned belief

 

[Justanatheist]

Well, as a Biblical literalist, I would say that the teaching of a young earth was the original one, while the old earth theory is the one that has been conditioned. And I do believe that since Jesus has died, mainstream Christian philosophy has completely corrupted his teachings. Churches say that Jesus taught to pay your taxes (LOL). Every Baptist church (in America at least) will teach that we are to submit to our government and that it is moral to kill Muslims through war. This is an example of a conditioned belief

That is interesting, one of my best friends is a Baptist in the UK he would be appalled at the notion it is moral to kill Muslims through war, he is one of the most pacifistic people I know.

 

[an anarchist]

That is interesting, one of my best friends is a Baptist in the UK he would be appalled at the notion it is moral to kill Muslims through war, he is one of the most pacifistic people I know.

I was mostly raised Baptist. My Pastors have dedicated entire services to explaining why us invading the middle east was moral. I remember one of our church members came back from being deployed, he went to the Pastor. He felt guilty for what he had done. The reason why I know this, is because the Pastor used that conversation as the basis for his next week's sermon. The topic of that sermon being the justification of Americans killing people across the world.

 

[Justanatheist]

I was mostly raised Baptist. My Pastors have dedicated entire services to explaining why us invading the middle east was moral. I remember one of our church members came back from being deployed, he went to the Pastor. He felt guilty for what he had done. The reason why I know this, is because the Pastor used that conversation as the basis for his next week's sermon. The topic of that sermon being the justification of Americans killing people across the world.

As an atheist the one thing I am sure of if a god was to exist is that he would not want to us to kill others in his name or he would not be worth calling a god.

 

[Polymath257]

In my OP, I am not suggesting an empirical experiment, Rather, this experiment would require the suspension of intellect. It is through this mental submission, that I believe God becomes visible.

It is also how we deceive ourselves.

I find it interesting that only by suppressing the natural doubt we should have is it possible to make God visible. That alone should be a HUGE red flag, don't you think?

I speak from personal experiences. The skeptic would have to experience their own deeply personal experiences with God for this proposed experiment to work. As a man of faith, it is necessary for me to believe that God is capable of giving anyone this experience. Religious people teach that God wants to have a relationship with everyone, right? So I’m banking on the compassion, and legitimacy, of my God.

Which means you have to believe *first* and then events happen that you feel confirm that belief. And, those events would NOT be seen as confirming if you didn't already believe.

THAT is confirmation bias in a nutshell.

 

[Polymath257]

You have to yell or cry out in desperation. I have discovered that is the only thing that ever gets God's attention. To heck with the prayers.

Some evidence that this works is two former atheists who are now avid believers. I know them personally.
But you cannot fake it, you have to be sincere. You have to humble yourself towards God and cry out for His help.
Otherwise it won't work because God knows our hearts.

And we also have many theists that have figured out that they really don't believe. Some are former priests.

Your prescription looks like a fail-safe: if someone fails to find God, you simply claim they weren't sincere enough. And, of course, since you can't know just how sincere they were, it is easy to claim that God refused simply because they didn't meet his standards.

Not to mention that saying a person has to call out in desperation seems rather like saying we don't want to be honest. We want the emotions to take over and to turn off the brain. And THAT, to me is simple self-delusion.

 

[Brian2]

I was dead serious as a little girl losing faith when I asked for something, anything, that would be convincing. This does not work no matter the earnestness of the questioner.

It could still happen.
What sort of thing would be convincing? Well I guess you won't know till it happens.

 

[Brian2]

I was mostly raised Baptist. My Pastors have dedicated entire services to explaining why us invading the middle east was moral. I remember one of our church members came back from being deployed, he went to the Pastor. He felt guilty for what he had done. The reason why I know this, is because the Pastor used that conversation as the basis for his next week's sermon. The topic of that sermon being the justification of Americans killing people across the world.

Sounds like weird sermons from Christian ministers. Some denominations are like that and from here (Australia) it looks as if many of them are in the US.

 

[Meow Mix]

It could still happen.
What sort of thing would be convincing? Well I guess you won't know till it happens.

It could! I’ll have to see. I could be convinced by some extraordinary things that should be easy for an omni-being.

I remember one time when I was little, I didn’t fully understand this story about a person that asked God to make a rag wet, but everything else dry. I remembered that the next day, the same guy asked God to do the opposite: have the rag dry, and everything else wet.

I was just a kid so I tried this being absolutely convinced it would work at the time, and was crushed when it didn’t. (This is not the extent of the seeking I was talking about, just a cute little anecdote).

 

[Brian2]

Well, as a Biblical literalist, I would say that the teaching of a young earth was the original one, while the old earth theory is the one that has been conditioned. And I do believe that since Jesus has died, mainstream Christian philosophy has completely corrupted his teachings. Churches say that Jesus taught to pay your taxes (LOL). Every Baptist church (in America at least) will teach that we are to submit to our government and that it is moral to kill Muslims through war. This is an example of a conditioned belief

I thought quite early Bible teachers thought that the earth could be a lot older than the proposed 6000 years. And this was when there was no evidence that it needed to be.
Certainly days in the first 2 chapters of Genesis do not refer to 24 hour days imo.

 

[Brian2]

I don't imagine that. I'm certain of it.
Because people see what they want to see.

Eventhough the following is some kind of caricature in a sense, it illustrates it rather well...

When in discussion with a, pardon the statement, "not very sophisticated" theist and he is being asked what evidence he can share in support of a god, he'll say something like "look at the trees, look at the birds!"

I look and I see trees and birds. I don't see gods.
The one who wants to see god in trees and birds, will.

The believer, especially the desperate ones, will grasp at anything.
They'll "pray" and the first thing that happens that they feel like they can attribute to said prayer, they will. There is not going to be any skeptical inquiry into how rational or justified it is.

It superficially "fits" in their mind and they'll be like "see??? GOD!!"

Meanwhile I'll be like... "euh... no, it's just rain".

Yes some people are hardened atheists. But God can even show hardened atheists that He exists imo.

 

[Brian2]

All waiting does is looking for something to happen in hopes the odds eventually pan out in order to make a fit to validate whatever deity happens to be foremost in one's mind.

I find my magic 8 ball in the 70s works exactly the same way. Ask a question and wait for something to come along. Presto! It works!

Balls aren't as good as the real thing.
tom hanks and the ball on the island - Google Search

 

[Brian2]

It could! I’ll have to see. I could be convinced by some extraordinary things that should be easy for an omni-being.

I remember one time when I was little, I didn’t fully understand this story about a person that asked God to make a rag wet, but everything else dry. I remembered that the next day, the same guy asked God to do the opposite: have the rag dry, and everything else wet.

I was just a kid so I tried this being absolutely convinced it would work at the time, and was crushed when it didn’t. (This is not the extent of the seeking I was talking about, just a cute little anecdote).

Very cute.
I hope you see and accept the answer God gives when it comes to believing in Him.
The guy with the fleece certainly needed a lot of evidence/proofs before He would believe God.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Balls aren't as good as the real thing.
tom hanks and the ball on the island - Google Search

I guess for some people, the ball aka Tom hanks "Wilson" becomes more than what it really and actually is in their mind.

God is Wilson essentially.

 

[F1fan]

Well then, I guess you'll just have to wait until you are.
Must be nice. I have never had that problem for more than 5 minutes.

I think you are on to something to declare that people only hear from God when they are in stress and despair. It makes us wonder why your God doesn't;t listen to people in every day life. And why your God still ignores the desperate pleas of parents whose children are dying from some illness. Your explanation is hit and miss, almost random, if God is going to hear you, and then if it's going to help you or just watch you suffer.

No, that is not what happened to these people. They were just made aware that God exists after their experiences.

Does this include people in despair who become aware God exists, but the God does nothing to help them?

They were nonbelievers before their experiences but they never became religious afterward, they just believed in God.

As you explained before these people weren't religious. So it's true they didn't actively believe in religious concepts and rituals, but that doesn't mean they were deliberately atheists either. It's misleading to put a non-religious person into the category of atheist UNTIL they classify themselves as atheist.

To be in the category of "atheist" a person has had to consider the basic religious belief in gods and make some intellectual effort to assess whether these beliefs are credible or not. Those who are just not religious heaven;t done this and at some point point in their life, likely when they hit bottom, will seek some sort of emotional comfort and fall back on what they learned from social experience about religion.

People who turn to God and humble themselves before God in a crisis are not fragile. They just intuitively know where the help comes from.

There's a biological component to religious belief. And there's a strong influence and social learning about religion in people's social experience. It's not intuitive. It makes no sense to humble the self to the imaginary. It's a scenario where a person is not able to cope with stress or fear or circumstances and relies on illusion to cope. This is well known in psychology that people do retreat to a state of fantasy or illusion to help distract and cope with life stress.

If you masturbate your using an illusion/fantasy to have a real physical experience, but you understand you're not having sex with an actual person. But that's ignored for you to get off. It's easy to do.

To say they are fragile would be to commit be the fallacy of hasty generalization and the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.

Fragile might have been the wrong word. But I suggest to say people in crisis and despair aren't humble either.

 

[F1fan]

Very cute.
I hope you see and accept the answer God gives when it comes to believing in Him.

If you believe a God exists it means you're making a judgment it exists and could be mistaken. If a God actually makes contact with a person to a degree they get a verifiable answer, then person will know a God exists.

So which is it?

The guy with the fleece certainly needed a lot of evidence/proofs before He would believe God.

Again, evidence allows a person to make a valid conclusion that an idea is true, but it's still not knowledge. And the absence of adequate evidence means a person has no reason to decide a given idea is true or even likely true. If the idea is contrary to what is known about reality, like a supernatural claim, then a person needs really good evidence before they can think it's plausible. Theists can't offer this level of evidence.

 

[F1fan]

Personally, I disagree. I'm a syncretistic, I believe that all of these religions stemmed from the same source, the same primal knowledge. I believe that division of religion is a manmade phenomenon, not a natural one. I believe that the truths that the ancient Hindu sages espoused align perfectly with the sages of any other religion.

I encourage you to read about how the human brain evolved to be religious. Early humans had an advantage if they adopted group/tribe norms and rituals. God concepts were created as a solution to the mysteries the mind could acknowledge but not answer.

Since religion is cultural and traditional, and science has only been an endeavor for several hundred years, many obsolete answers and beliefs are still prevalent in societies around the world. The meaning people assign to their social experience can be easier and more powerful than the intellectual skill that requires a lot of discipline and work.