Skwim
Veteran Member
I know this is a bit lengthy, so if the THE SET UP doesn't interest you feel free to jump to MY ARGUMENT
THE SET UP
Christianity tells us that when we die god will judge us and sentence us to either heaven or eternal punishment.
Just so there's no question of what we're talking about, consider.
"Catholics teach that the Christian must rely on faith plus “meritorious works” in order to be saved. Essential to the Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation are the Seven Sacraments, which are baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, holy orders, and matrimony.
Protestants believe that, on the basis of faith in Christ alone, believers are justified by God, as all their sins are paid for by Christ on the cross and His righteousness is imputed to them. Catholics, on the other hand, believe that Christ’s righteousness is imparted to the believer by “grace through faith,” but in itself is not sufficient to justify the believer. The believer must supplement the righteousness of Christ imparted to him with meritorious works."
source
MY ARGUMENT
So, we can be saved from eternal punishment either through faith in Jesus alone or faith in Jesus plus works. Decide you can't to go along with these conditions and you end up in hell.
But in order to exercise any faith in Jesus one has to know about it. If one isn't provided with the rules of the game is it fair to hold a person responsible for breaking them? This is exactly the situation of those who have never heard of Jesus and god's plan. And what is said of these people?
"Will those who never have heard the gospel be lost—even though they might be “sincere”? Indeed they will be! Their separation from God throughout eternity will have been caused by two factors: (1) they sinned against God; and (2) they had not been taught—and thus were not able to take advantage of—the gospel plan of salvation that was offered to all men as the free gift of God (Romans 5:15-21; 6:23b) to restore them to a covenant relationship with Him."
source
Those never having heard of Jesus will be lost (sent to hell I presume).
Alternatively, some have said this could never be the case. Everyone has heard of god's plan.
Just how this works (hearing about Jesus and salvation when nothing or no one has presented it) is not explained, so I find it extremely doubtful, and see it as just an excuse to save god's unjust discrimination. Even freshmen in logic 101 would dismiss this as self-serving thoughtlessness.
However, for the sake of argument, lets say that "Even if you've never actually heard about the plan you've heard about it," there's more than just hearing about it that's needed to keep one out of hell. One has to abide by the rules: accept Jesus as your lord and savior, and maybe do some good stuff.
But this all assumes one is convinced of the god-and-rules-and-Jesus requirement. And what if one isn't, whose fault is this? Let me ask, who's fault is it that you don't believe in unicorns, Peter Pan, and Santa Clause? Yours, why? What did you do to earn deserve blame? (assuming disbelief in the three is blameworthy). As I see it, the message of the god's plan simply doesn't register as being reasonable in the brains of some of us. And if our brains aren't so predisposed to do so that's simply the way we are. It's not something we choose: to be predisposed one way or the other. It's like being heterosexual or homosexual. One doesn't choose to be either. It's just the way we are. So the blame has to lie either in the message, it isn't convincing enough; or in the messenger, it wasn't presented convincingly enough; or perhaps both. In any case, the reason we reject god's plan is not our fault. Our mind is simply not programmed to do so.
So, considering the above why is it reasonable to send those of us who don't believe in Jesus to eternal punishment? As I see it, it isn't. God is an unsporting sort whose ethics need a good upgrade. Hell, even I'm more compassionate than he is. I wouldn't blame him for not believing in unicorns, Peter Pan, and Santa Clause, and consign him to everlasting punishment, if I didn't give him reason enough.
.
THE SET UP
Christianity tells us that when we die god will judge us and sentence us to either heaven or eternal punishment.
"A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The deliverance, by the grace of God, from eternal punishment for sin which is granted to those who accept by faith God’s conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.” Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12) and is dependent on God alone for provision, assurance, and security."
source
source
Just so there's no question of what we're talking about, consider.
"Salvation (Latin salvatio; Greek sōtēria; Hebrew yasha) is being saved or protected from harm or being saved or delivered from some dire situation. In religion, salvation is stated as the saving of the soul from sin and its consequences.
In religion, salvation is the saving of the soul from sin and its consequences. It may also be called "deliverance" or "redemption" from sin and its effects. Salvation is considered to be caused either by the grace of a deity, by free will and personal efforts through prayer and asceticism, or by some combination of the two. Religions often emphasize the necessity of both personal effort—for example, repentance and asceticism—and divine action (e.g. grace).
For Christianity, salvation is only possible through Jesus Christ. Christians believe that Jesus' death on the cross was the once-for-all sacrifice that atoned for the sin of humanity.
Variant views on salvation are among the main fault lines dividing the various Christian denominations, both between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism."
source: Wikipedia
In religion, salvation is the saving of the soul from sin and its consequences. It may also be called "deliverance" or "redemption" from sin and its effects. Salvation is considered to be caused either by the grace of a deity, by free will and personal efforts through prayer and asceticism, or by some combination of the two. Religions often emphasize the necessity of both personal effort—for example, repentance and asceticism—and divine action (e.g. grace).
For Christianity, salvation is only possible through Jesus Christ. Christians believe that Jesus' death on the cross was the once-for-all sacrifice that atoned for the sin of humanity.
Variant views on salvation are among the main fault lines dividing the various Christian denominations, both between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism."
source: Wikipedia
"Catholics teach that the Christian must rely on faith plus “meritorious works” in order to be saved. Essential to the Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation are the Seven Sacraments, which are baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, holy orders, and matrimony.
Protestants believe that, on the basis of faith in Christ alone, believers are justified by God, as all their sins are paid for by Christ on the cross and His righteousness is imputed to them. Catholics, on the other hand, believe that Christ’s righteousness is imparted to the believer by “grace through faith,” but in itself is not sufficient to justify the believer. The believer must supplement the righteousness of Christ imparted to him with meritorious works."
source
MY ARGUMENT
So, we can be saved from eternal punishment either through faith in Jesus alone or faith in Jesus plus works. Decide you can't to go along with these conditions and you end up in hell.
But in order to exercise any faith in Jesus one has to know about it. If one isn't provided with the rules of the game is it fair to hold a person responsible for breaking them? This is exactly the situation of those who have never heard of Jesus and god's plan. And what is said of these people?
"Will those who never have heard the gospel be lost—even though they might be “sincere”? Indeed they will be! Their separation from God throughout eternity will have been caused by two factors: (1) they sinned against God; and (2) they had not been taught—and thus were not able to take advantage of—the gospel plan of salvation that was offered to all men as the free gift of God (Romans 5:15-21; 6:23b) to restore them to a covenant relationship with Him."
source
Those never having heard of Jesus will be lost (sent to hell I presume).
Alternatively, some have said this could never be the case. Everyone has heard of god's plan.
"Is it true, then, that "those who have never heard [the message]," really have no idea of God's existence or of their moral responsibilities? Biblically speaking, it's not true. "Those who have never heard" have heard something and they do have access to key information about God."
source
source
Just how this works (hearing about Jesus and salvation when nothing or no one has presented it) is not explained, so I find it extremely doubtful, and see it as just an excuse to save god's unjust discrimination. Even freshmen in logic 101 would dismiss this as self-serving thoughtlessness.
However, for the sake of argument, lets say that "Even if you've never actually heard about the plan you've heard about it," there's more than just hearing about it that's needed to keep one out of hell. One has to abide by the rules: accept Jesus as your lord and savior, and maybe do some good stuff.
But this all assumes one is convinced of the god-and-rules-and-Jesus requirement. And what if one isn't, whose fault is this? Let me ask, who's fault is it that you don't believe in unicorns, Peter Pan, and Santa Clause? Yours, why? What did you do to earn deserve blame? (assuming disbelief in the three is blameworthy). As I see it, the message of the god's plan simply doesn't register as being reasonable in the brains of some of us. And if our brains aren't so predisposed to do so that's simply the way we are. It's not something we choose: to be predisposed one way or the other. It's like being heterosexual or homosexual. One doesn't choose to be either. It's just the way we are. So the blame has to lie either in the message, it isn't convincing enough; or in the messenger, it wasn't presented convincingly enough; or perhaps both. In any case, the reason we reject god's plan is not our fault. Our mind is simply not programmed to do so.
So, considering the above why is it reasonable to send those of us who don't believe in Jesus to eternal punishment? As I see it, it isn't. God is an unsporting sort whose ethics need a good upgrade. Hell, even I'm more compassionate than he is. I wouldn't blame him for not believing in unicorns, Peter Pan, and Santa Clause, and consign him to everlasting punishment, if I didn't give him reason enough.
.
Last edited:
