How vs Actuality

[The Hammer]

In your opinion, what's the most compelling example of a problem that stems from the difference between how the world works and the way people think?

I think it's interesting that we pay for things like Fresh Water (especially bottled), as well as the fact that we are the only species on Earth that pays rent/mortgage in order to live as a part of it.

 

[ChristineM]

I think its interesting that we pay for anything, how did that happen?

 

[fantome profane]

In your opinion, what's the most compelling example of a problem that stems from the difference between how the world works and the way people think?

I think it's interesting that we pay for things like Fresh Water (especially bottled), as well as the fact that we are the only species on Earth that pays rent/mortgage in order to live as a part of it.

I think its interesting that we pay for anything, how did that happen?

I think the point you are both getting at is that money isn’t real. Money is a fictional idea that we have agreed to play by, but there is no such thing.

And the fact that people suffer, that people die, because of a lack of this thing that doesn’t even exist is absurd and grotesque.

 

[The Hammer]

I think the point you are both getting at is that money isn’t real. Money is a fictional idea that we have agreed to play by, but there is no such thing.

And the fact that people suffer, that people die, because of a lack of this thing that doesn’t even exist is absurd and grotesque.

Yeah I think this is definitely a good summation. Do you see any other contradictions in Society? Or how we do things that differs from the way we should do them?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I think maybe it has to do with viewing ourselves as little cells inside of economic blocks. As opposed to being more integrated with the world, with nature etc.

 

[Kooky]

I think the point you are both getting at is that money isn’t real. Money is a fictional idea that we have agreed to play by, but there is no such thing.

Money is as real as language or music.

 

[fantome profane]

Money is as real as language or music.

I don’t think so. But I will give that more thought.

But a song is a thing, it has value just by being a song. Yes you can trade it for something else (like money). But you don’t need to. It doesn’t just have value because it can be traded, it has intrinsic value just because of what it is. Same of a book, a story, poem.

But money in itself, intrinsically, is nothing. It is not food, it is not shelter or clothing. It is not art or entertainment. It is not medicine, or transportation. And it can’t buy me love.

 

[The Hammer]

I don’t think so. But I will give that more thought.

But a song is a thing, it has value just by being a song. Yes you can trade it for something else (like money). But you don’t need to. It doesn’t just have value because it can be traded, it has intrinsic value just because of what it is. Same of a book, a story, poem.

But money in itself, intrinsically, is nothing. It is not food, it is not shelter or clothing. It is not art or entertainment. It is not medicine, or transportation. And it can’t buy me love.

Kind of reminds me of this quote by Alanis Ombosawin.

 

[Stevicus]

I think the point you are both getting at is that money isn’t real. Money is a fictional idea that we have agreed to play by, but there is no such thing.

And the fact that people suffer, that people die, because of a lack of this thing that doesn’t even exist is absurd and grotesque.

I'm not sure how many of us actually agreed to it, but money's value is derived from society's collective faith in its value. As long as people believe it has value, then it will continue to be used as a tool of exchange. The belief definitely exists, and considering the lengths that humans will go to acquire money - even up to and including murder - that faith seems as powerful as any religious belief. Perhaps even more so.

Coupled with that is the belief that people deserve to die because they lack this thing that doesn't exist, as a kind of social Darwinist "survival of the fittest" mentality tends to dominate the socioeconomic culture these days. "Screw the poor" is their main creed.

 

[F1fan]

I think its interesting that we pay for anything, how did that happen?

I suspect it started when humans built permanent settlements as then there was time to develop art and other creative things. There had to be a way to barter for goods and services. If you make baskets and a guy who raises chickens wants one, but you have enough chickens, it creates a problem. Money solves that problem.

Today money is a pretty confusing thing.

 

[The Hammer]

I suspect it started when humans built permanent settlements as then there was time to develop art and other creative things. There had to be a way to barter for goods and services. If you make baskets and a guy who raises chickens wants one, but you have enough chickens, it creates a problem. Money solves that problem.

Today money is a pretty confusing thing.

Or you trade for something else besides his chickens.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I think maybe it has to do with viewing ourselves as little cells inside of economic blocks. As opposed to being more integrated with the world, with nature etc.

That is why Advaita (non-duality) is a good thing. No difference even in living and non-living things.

Kind of reminds me of this quote by Alanis Ombosawin.

Mythologically happened to Midas.

 

[oldbadger]

I think it's interesting that we pay for things like Fresh Water (especially bottled), as well as the fact that we are the only species on Earth that pays rent/mortgage in order to live as a part of it.

We didn't..... always. Not often, anyway.
We hunted and gathered and were self sufficient until death.

But one day this bloke saw another bloke who was holding/using a lump of stone that he had somehow caused to be sharp...useful. So he swapped his eldest daughter for it, then killed the other bloke (with that sharp stone) and took his eldest daughter back. (Whatever)...... the beginning of trade, theft, murder, etc all in a single day.

 

[Heyo]

In your opinion, what's the most compelling example of a problem that stems from the difference between how the world works and the way people think?

I think it's interesting that we pay for things like Fresh Water (especially bottled), as well as the fact that we are the only species on Earth that pays rent/mortgage in order to live as a part of it.

I recently posted this on another thread but it fits here, too:

Note that that was in 2011, it will be worse now.

 

[ChristineM]

I think the point you are both getting at is that money isn’t real. Money is a fictional idea that we have agreed to play by, but there is no such thing.

And the fact that people suffer, that people die, because of a lack of this thing that doesn’t even exist is absurd and grotesque.

I think money is real, a real tool and like all tools designed for a particular purpose. Those holding the tool use it to impose power on those without it

 

[Stevicus]

I suspect it started when humans built permanent settlements as then there was time to develop art and other creative things. There had to be a way to barter for goods and services. If you make baskets and a guy who raises chickens wants one, but you have enough chickens, it creates a problem. Money solves that problem.

Today money is a pretty confusing thing.

Money has gotten pretty confusing, at least in terms of understanding monetary policies, tax laws, and various other ins-and-outs of accounting practices and handling of money. Some people have a certain talent or savvy in that area, whereas many do not. There's a sucker born every minute, and a fool and his money are soon parted. (Or as Gordon Gekko put it, "A fool and his money are lucky to get together in the first place.")

Whatever we have now, it goes far beyond a simple basic unit of exchange for the sake of facilitating transactions of goods and services.

 

[Stevicus]

Or you trade for something else besides his chickens.

It's interesting that in some isolated, small-scale economies (such as in POW camps), cigarettes became a primary unit of exchange.

 

[F1fan]

Or you trade for something else besides his chickens.

I guess that's why daughters came in handy at some point.

 

[The Hammer]

It's interesting that in some isolated, small-scale economies (such as in POW camps), cigarettes became a primary unit of exchange.

Yeah, deployments would get like that too. Cigarettes, movies/games, even books.

 

[Kooky]

I don’t think so. But I will give that more thought.

You are free to think whatever you want.

But a song is a thing, it has value just by being a song.

If you really think so, then you haven't heard me signing yet!

Yes you can trade it for something else (like money). But you don’t need to. It doesn’t just have value because it can be traded, it has intrinsic value just because of what it is. Same of a book, a story, poem.

"Value" is a term that is vastly more open than just simply whatever goods or services you can trade something for. I would also strongly argue that it is never "intrinsic" as you put it: If anything has value, it is because it is being valued, which is contingent on a person or group of people who value things.
No matter whether we're talking about moral, social, or economical value - something can only have value when there are people who value it.

But money in itself, intrinsically, is nothing. It is not food, it is not shelter or clothing. It is not art or entertainment. It is not medicine, or transportation. And it can’t buy me love.

I would argue that nothing is intrinsically anything at all.
Money is a social construction we use to denote economic debt and exchange value. In this socially constructed form, it can be manipulated in logically coherent and predictable ways, and is stable enough as an intersubjective phenomenon to become the basis of a huge portion of our everyday economic activity. It has a definite and observable social and socio-economic reality that reaches beyond individuals, groups, and singular institutions or organizations.

As an observable social phenomenon, it is arguably more real than most people.

Yes, it is contingent on a specific socio-economic configuration that is not going to exist forever, but the same could be said about literally any element of our society, including our own social identities.