How Well Did Jesus Understand God?

[Sunstone]

How well did Jesus understand God? Was his understanding of God limited in any way? Was he mistaken in any way?

What was "God" to Jesus? What did he mean by "God"?

Did Jesus invent the notion of a "personal relationship to God"?

Was Jesus's understanding of God in any way different from the way(s) God was understood in the Old Testament? If so, how?

Was his understanding of God in any way different from the way(s) God was understood by the Pagans of his time? If so, how?

What relation did Jesus's God have to morality? What relation did the God of the OT have to morality? What relation did the Pagan deities have to morality?

Was Jesus's understanding of God different from Paul's understanding of God? If so, how?

Was Jesus's understanding of God any different from his disciples understanding of God? If so, how?

 

[Seraphiel]

I think Jesus understood God very well. I only think Jesus had a hard time explaining it to people. Buddha was far more better in explaining things. Or maybe the people surrounding Jesus where not ready jet for a better explanation about God.

 

[Cordoba]

From a Muslim perspective, Jesus peace be upon him understood his mission perfectly well

 

[michel]

Rather a lot of questions............

Biblically, there is plenty of evidence to show that Jesus knew who he was, and that he was "God incarnate". He implied that he was God in the following passages:-

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Defender's notes:- "Abraham evidently saw the "my day" of Christ when "the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision" (Genesis 15:1). On that occasion, the Lord had said, "I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward" (Genesis 15:1), and this was the very first of the great "I am's" of the Bible. This vision of the Word of the Lord was Christ in a pre-incarnate theophany."

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Defender's notes:- "This is probably the most unmistakable claim of deity yet made by Christ, and the Jewish leaders clearly understood what He was saying. He not only was referring them back to Abraham's vision (see note on John 8:56), but also to Exodus 3:14, when Moses asked God His name and received the reply: "I AM THAT I AM." That is, God told Moses (and Jesus told the Jews) that He was the eternally existent One, the Creator and Sustainer of all things. "Before Abraham was [born], I am."​

John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Defender's notes :- "Because they thought Jesus was a blasphemer, the Jews immediately sought to carry out the legal judgment of stoning (Leviticus 24:16). As He had done on several occasions before, however, Jesus "merely passed through the midst of them" (Luke 4:30), because "his hour was not yet come" (John 7:30). This verse says that Jesus "hid himself," but does not elaborate as to how this was done. Angels were always with Him (Mark 1:13; Luke 22:43), so they may well have been involved." -an implication, again, that he was fully aware of his 'status'
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Defender's notes :- "Such a claim, if not that of a madman (and this is unthinkable in view of the age-long influence of the incomparable teachings of Jesus), can only be understood in terms of the doctrine of the "hypostatic union"--the indissoluble union of eternal God and perfect Man in the person of Jesus Christ."
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
The above implies that he is God "Believe in me, see me, youu believe in God, and you see God"​

John 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

John 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

Defender's notes "It is interesting and significant that the disciples, in speaking to Christ, never address Him simply as Jesus or even as Christ. They almost always addressed Him as "Lord" and occasionally as "Master." In writing their narratives about His acts and words, they would refer to Him as Jesus "did", or "said." That was His human name and a very fitting name, but their relation to Him was not that of man-to-man but that of servant to Lord or disciple to Master. When we address Him in prayer, we do well to honor Him by following their example. When we do this, He would say, as He did to His first disciples, "Ye say well" (1 Corinthians 12:3; Philippians 2:9,10; Romans 10:9,10)."

John 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Again Jesus says " I... your Lord and Master"
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Defender's notes"​

​

This is the sixth of Jesus' great "I am" assertions and, no less than the others, is a clear claim of deity. He did not come to show us the way, teach us the truth, and give us the life, though He does all of this, because He is the Way to God, the Truth of God, and the Life in God.

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.​

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?​

Three direct assertions that Jesus 'knew' that he was God​

As to a comparisson of the God of the old Testament, and that described by Jesus:-​

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/otkillergod.htm

Probably the two biggest hindrances to the acceptance of Christianity are 1) the doctrine of Hellfire, and 2) the voluminous evidence in the Old Testament of a "Killer God," a God who seems to be saying, "If you love Me and do what I tell you, everything will be fine and I'll give you eternal life. But if you don't, I'll have to destroy you."

Most Christians have been taught that God is a combination of justice and mercy. His mercy is demonstrated by His Plan of Salvation, in which Jesus came to die for sinners, to pay our penalty for sins, and to save those who accept Him. His justice is demonstrated, we are told, by the punishment given at the Judgement to those who don't accept and follow Him, the punishment of burning forever or burning for at least some period of time.


But Jesus came to reveal the character and will of the Father. Jesus said, "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." John 14:9 "I and My Father are one." John 10:30


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]John 1:1,14 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God. . . and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Jesus is the Word, therefore Jesus is God in human form!

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]When Jesus came to earth, He came to reveal the complete character of God, and this He accomplished, as He said just before His crucifixion, "I have finished the work you gave Me to do" (John 17:4). Heb 1:2,3 says, God "has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son...Who being the brightness of His (God's) glory, and the express image of His (God's) person..." "I and My Father are one." John 10:30 "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." John 14:9 "For God...gives the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Cor 4:6

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]So, it is clear that when Jesus was on earth, He revealed the exact and complete character of God. No part of God's character was left out in the life of Jesus!

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]But when Jesus was on earth, He NEVER killed anyone. He never even hurt anyone. He told His followers to love their enemies and He behaved in the same way. When He was on the Cross, He asked His Father to forgive His murderers "for they know not what they do."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Jesus was gentle, humble, kind and longsuffering. How do we reconcile Him with the thundering, wrathful, killing God of the Old Testament? Even Jesus' disciples were perplexed and confused. Philip asked Jesus to show them the Father, and Jesus replied, "If you've seen Me - - - you've seen the Father." (John 14:9) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]<--------------------------------------------------snip------------------------------------------------------------------->[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][/FONT]
​

 

[michel]

Part 2.
The God of the Old testament; was he so different ?
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]God, Himself, Defines His "Wrath."


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Human beings define wrath as "intense anger, rage fury, vengeance" according to Webster's New World Dictionary. But God defines His wrath in a totally different way.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Look at Romans 1:18: "For the wrath (Greek word orge) of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold (suppress) the truth in unrighteousness." Then verses 24, 26 and 28 tell us how God demonstrates His wrath:

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Verse 24: "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Verse 26: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections; for even their women did change (exchange) the natural use into (for) that which is against nature."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Verse 28: "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate (debased) mind, to do those things which are not convenient (fitting)."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]So we see that God's wrath is just giving us up to our own sinful ways to reap what we have sown. He doesn't punish us. He doesn't harm us in any way. He just let's us go the way we have chosen. We then punish ourselves by our wrong decisions.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]God has given us the 10 Commandments as a guide for our life. He says that if we obey them, our lives will be easier and happier. If we don't obey them, our lives will be harder and more sorrowful - - - NOT because He's going to punish us, but because the natural result of our actions and behavior will bring us sorrow and pain.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]When our children were young, we warned them not to play in the street. We didn't say, "If you play in the street, I'll kill you." No, we said "I love you and I don't want to see you hurt. If you play in the street, you might be injured or killed."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]It's the same with God. He says, "I love you and I want your life to be happy and healthy. If you don't obey the guidelines I have given you, I won't punish you, but you will punish yourselves by bringing on yourselves the results of your behavior. You will reap what you have sown."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]So we can understand that God's wrath is totally different from man's wrath.
[/FONT]


[/FONT]

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

How well did Jesus understand God? Was his understanding of God limited in any way? Was he mistaken in any way?

Yes I think it was limited... He did not have"as a man" a direct mind contact with God. He had to pray like the rest of us. Of course as the son of God he had an innate sense of what God required.

What was "God" to Jesus? What did he mean by "God"?

He was his Loving all powerful father, who had sent him to the world , to correct the message about God and the way we should live.

Did Jesus invent the notion of a "personal relationship to God"?

I doubt it.. if any one it was God himself.

Was Jesus's understanding of God in any way different from the way(s) God was understood in the Old Testament? If so, how?

It was very different ... he saw a God of love. forgiveness, and infinite patience, peace loving, reconciler,and Teacher.

The Jews saw God as jealous,all powerful, disciplinarian, judgemental, smiter of enemies and evil doers. who could be bargained with.

Was his understanding of God in any way different from the way(s) God was understood by the Pagans of his time? If so, how?

pagans had a similar view of their gods as did the Jews, but they were not limited to one only.

What relation did Jesus's God have to morality? What relation did the God of the OT have to morality? What relation did the Pagan deities have to morality?

Jesus God was a Moral God who set the bounds and taught through Jesus how to keep within them. the process is open ended and needs to be self interpreted in new situations.
The Jewish God was a God of laws and retribution if you got it wrong; it was not so much about morals as an imposed process, doing what you were told.
If it was not in the law you were OK.
I do not know the Pagans moral position, I suspect it varied.

Was Jesus's understanding of God different from Paul's understanding of God? If so, how?

It was seen from a different view point, I think 9 out of 10 times got it right but in some things, he was prepared to compromise and adapt to the practices of those he taught. I think he tended to see things more in the Jewish context of laws and deals.
He was certainly more muddled when the teaching of Christ varied with his Jewish Background.I think this is the main reason so much of the OT got carried into Christianity.

Was Jesus's understanding of God any different from his disciples understanding of God? If so, how?

That was clearly so... Jesus was constantly correcting them; they were not even quite sure of Jesus own status.

 

[Halcyon]

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Defender's notes:- "This is probably the most unmistakable claim of deity yet made by Christ,

I don't believe that was a claim of deity, any gnostic or mormon could make the same claim, it all depends on your understanding of what is being said.

I say gnostic or mormon because both groups believe(d) in the preexistance of souls. John says "Before Abraham was, I am." Saying that before Abraham was born and died on Earth, Jesus - along with billions of other preincarnate souls - already existed.
I'm not sure if mormons would go along with my interpretation, but they could.

 

[roli]

How well did Jesus understand God? Was his understanding of God limited in any way? Was he mistaken in any way?

What was "God" to Jesus? What did he mean by "God"?

Did Jesus invent the notion of a "personal relationship to God"?

Was Jesus's understanding of God in any way different from the way(s) God was understood in the Old Testament? If so, how?

Was his understanding of God in any way different from the way(s) God was understood by the Pagans of his time? If so, how?

What relation did Jesus's God have to morality? What relation did the God of the OT have to morality? What relation did the Pagan deities have to morality?

Was Jesus's understanding of God different from Paul's understanding of God? If so, how?

Was Jesus's understanding of God any different from his disciples understanding of God? If so, how?

It sounds as if this could be a reinactment of the COUNCIL OF NICAEA - 325 AD
I am just wondering if sharing from a biblical perspective is productive as many here don't believe in it or rely on it,so it would seem senseless to voice an opinion based from it.
I will follow the thread and see what some responses are and how Michael's post is receieved

 

[Ðanisty]

Well, as much as I like Jesus, I think he was overly optimistic about it and didn't understand God at all.

 

[Buttons*]

Well, as much as I like Jesus, I think he was overly optimistic about it and didn't understand God at all.

i personally think he understood a truer "god" than the God of the OT.... but what do i know

 

[Popeyesays]

I think the Communion Jesus or any of the other Prophets of God had with God is not understandable by any other men or women who ever existed. Baha`u'llah was describing His own experience, but it could have come from the mouth of any of the Divine Manifestations:

""O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, 12 the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list. The evanescent is as nothing before Him Who is the Ever-Abiding. His all-compelling summons hath reached Me, and caused Me to speak His praise amidst all people. I was indeed as one dead when His behest was uttered. The hand of the will of thy Lord, the Compassionate, the Merciful, transformed Me.""
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 11)

Regards,
Scott

 

[YmirGF]

""O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, 12 the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list. The evanescent is as nothing before Him Who is the Ever-Abiding. His all-compelling summons hath reached Me, and caused Me to speak His praise amidst all people. I was indeed as one dead when His behest was uttered. The hand of the will of thy Lord, the Compassionate, the Merciful, transformed Me.""
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 11)

Sorry Scott, that is a teeny bit "over the top" for this shallow mortal to choke down. I keep forgetting that the ordinary person cannot understand or perceive directly what these alleged sages are yapping about or the view of reality they enjoy.

In regards to the OP, I believe the Christ understood his relationship perfectly well and it is those who became his recognized followers who did not understand. (Key "action" word here is "recognized".) I will meet you half way Scott. I don't believe it is a question of not being able to understand but more akin to folks not wanting to truly understand and instead clinging to their own preconceived notions of what reality is. If mankind could only relinquish his preconceptions about himself and reality he might begin to see things as they truly are. But heck, what would I know, eh? :slap:

 

[Random]

I do not believe Jesus was talking about Deity @ all when he spoke of GOD: the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are mystical concepts and adjuncts of his own person, and ours also. I think if you put forth the idea of a remote, abstract Heavenly Father who dwelt apart from man and was a Supreme Being of limitless power, he would say that was missing the point and resultant of an egoic vision of his teachings.

I am saying that everything Jesus said about GOD was informed by his unique mystical insight into humanity and our beingness, and contained therein a teaching applicable in life to everyone and a lesson for unlocking the mysteries that bind us. Jesus came to make us free, not to enslave us to a non-existent ideation. That is all Deity is, an ideation, and to be free you must put away the childish thing and transcend the need for external governance of ones spirit (ie. the Father is not seperate from YOU).

We all have a child inside that loves the idea of a heavenly Father who is perfect and unchanging, we have that part of us that craves the feeling of being protected and loved (or cosetted) from "above" or "beyond" and the sense of self-importance that brings. It's addictive and religion that promotes the misunderstanding of GOD this way has a vested interest in exploiting your crushing psychological dependency to make themselves fat, rich and "respected" (via fear) in the community. This is what Jesus rejected the Saducees and Pharisees for, and threw a fit in the Temple over. But a spiritually mature person sees this child as it is: the clinging Ego-construct, the shadow on your soul, the OTHER or weird-self. Jesus merely suggested that people stop being strangers to themselves and find the divine centre of their being-ness: this was godly in the truest sense.

Now we all hear these stories of Jesus praying and such: well, Buddhist pray, but not to GOD. In any case, the historical man Jesus whom the character of "Christ" is based on did not believe in a literally-existing external supernatural Deity: that is my belief, and any honest examination of the NT will @ least grant you an intuitive sense of this, if the intellect does not do its job and properly dissect the mytho-poetic symbolism to reveal the essence of the man.

 

[athanasius]

How well do you understand Jesus understadning God????????

 

[Popeyesays]

Sorry Scott, that is a teeny bit "over the top" for this shallow mortal to choke down. I keep forgetting that the ordinary person cannot understand or perceive directly what these alleged sages are yapping about or the view of reality they enjoy.

In regards to the OP, I believe the Christ understood his relationship perfectly well and it is those who became his recognized followers who did not understand. (Key "action" word here is "recognized".) I will meet you half way Scott. I don't believe it is a question of not being able to understand but more akin to folks not wanting to truly understand and instead clinging to their own preconceived notions of what reality is. If mankind could only relinquish his preconceptions about himself and reality he might begin to see things as they truly are. But heck, what would I know, eh? :slap:

One cannot fling aside one's basic nature. God is Creator and we are Created. How can the finite understand the Infinite?

Regards,
Scott

 

[Katzpur]

How well did Jesus understand God? Was his understanding of God limited in any way? Was he mistaken in any way?[/quote}I think that, because He and His Father were "one," His (i.e. Jesus') knowledge of Him (i.e. God) was perfect.

What was "God" to Jesus? What did he mean by "God"?

God was Jesus' Father and His God. At least that's how Jesus himself referred to God.

Did Jesus invent the notion of a "personal relationship to God"?

I don't believe so, but He certainly understood what it meant better than anyone else who had ever lived.

Was Jesus's understanding of God in any way different from the way(s) God was understood in the Old Testament? If so, how?

Well, since I believe that Jesus Christ was Jehovah of the Old Testament, my opinion on this question is probably moot.

Was his understanding of God in any way different from the way(s) God was understood by the Pagans of his time? If so, how?

I think it was almost totally different. To begin with, the pagans were polytheistic, weren't they?

What relation did Jesus's God have to morality? What relation did the God of the OT have to morality? What relation did the Pagan deities have to morality?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. You might want to explain further if you are interested in my point of view.

Was Jesus's understanding of God different from Paul's understanding of God? If so, how?

I think that they were essentially the same, except that Jesus' understanding was perfect and complete, while Paul's was limited.

Was Jesus's understanding of God any different from his disciples understanding of God? If so, how?

See my comments comparing Jesus' understanding of God to Paul's. I'd answer this question the same way.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't believe that was a claim of deity, any gnostic or mormon could make the same claim, it all depends on your understanding of what is being said.

I say gnostic or mormon because both groups believe(d) in the preexistance of souls. John says "Before Abraham was, I am." Saying that before Abraham was born and died on Earth, Jesus - along with billions of other preincarnate souls - already existed.
I'm not sure if mormons would go along with my interpretation, but they could.

I think that Mormons would say this was a claim of deity. While we believe that all of us had a pre-mortal existence, I don't believe that any of us would refer to ourselves as Jesus did when He said, "Before Abraham was, I am." We believe that Jesus was the firstborn of all of God's spirit offspring and that He (alone except for the Holy Ghost) was with God prior to the creation of the universe. That makes Him unique.

 

[Popeyesays]

Bahai's on the other hand understand that the soul is created at the time of conception and resides in and around the body until the body dies and the soul is released from this physical life. No pre-existence involved.

Regards,
Scott

 

[BeerStein]

The real question is how much does the NT reflect the real Jesus?

There is very little outside of NT that refers to him. He was so "well known" apparently that his identity & location had to be betrayed by insider. Virtually nothing of his life other than anecdotal posthumous rant about some party tricks and admittedly some insightful sayings.... for the "Word" he did not even write one or even ensure he had a secretary keep his diary.... surely viorgin mum would have kept a scrap book???

Despite sone not all so called gospels declaring he rose into the clouds.... not one person other than a prfessor of Christianity saw it.

He had a much better understanding than the writers of the OT... the genocidal, descriminatory, ruthless , hot tempered God that had a battke in heaven cast down satan but he rose from the pit to stuff up Gods plan in the form of a snake , so much so that he had to start all over with Noah & Sons, only to try and win thousands of years later by allowing the humility of being sacrificed on a cross... and he apparently still hasn't won the battle....

That God does not sound like the creator of the universe to me!

 

[Ozzie]

How well did Jesus understand God? Was his understanding of God limited in any way? Was he mistaken in any way?

What was "God" to Jesus? What did he mean by "God"?

Did Jesus invent the notion of a "personal relationship to God"?

Was Jesus's understanding of God in any way different from the way(s) God was understood in the Old Testament? If so, how?

Was his understanding of God in any way different from the way(s) God was understood by the Pagans of his time? If so, how?

What relation did Jesus's God have to morality? What relation did the God of the OT have to morality? What relation did the Pagan deities have to morality?

Was Jesus's understanding of God different from Paul's understanding of God? If so, how?

Was Jesus's understanding of God any different from his disciples understanding of God? If so, how?

8 great threads in one. Jesus understood himself to be the personal relationship with God. His life justifies the idol worship evident in Christian churches today that would have been unacceptable within the Old Testament.